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Bryan Fuller: Diversity is key

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^India had one of the largest representations for the British Empire in World War 2 (2.5 million men) but you would not know it from watching war based movies, be they historical dramas or comic book fiction.

I like historical dramas, been watching The Crown and it is fascinating as well as insulting how imperialistic the establishment was about the Empire. Why to this day do brown skinned nations insist on having a Head of State who will never look like them? If the situation was reversed Caucasian British people would never stand for it. They have this born to rule attitude which is both fascinating and obnoxious - products of their time.

It's a complicated question and a complicated question. Your end statement is not necessarily true either...look at Brexit. About half the country jumped up and down about 'sovrinty init' and half didn't give a monkeys as long as things were generally stable and OK. The history of the British Empire is full of that sort of distinction too, not least as it tended to favour one side in a preexisting setup before nominally 'taking over' (not denying we sent some nasty buggers out into the world, and the Empire was decidedly not a bed of roses for anyone at the bottom, including in the British Isles themselves.) or changing the setup in their own favour. Rule in India came from taking over an extant setup....rule in Hong Kong started with basically an empty island that local people then came to...some of the Caribbean islands started off by being 'liberated' from groups that had not ceased slave trading, Canada was a comparatively 'free' place to live compared to North America at that time. The whole history is full of contradictions, and colonial history is full of those shades where it very much depended on whose warship turned up, whose side they took, and right down to whether the crew of that ship were comaparatively progressive or not. Nasty business overall, but humanity in general takes a long time to stop hitting each other on the head or claiming rule over other humans. (We still haven't) After that it's all just history and how local people see their own history and future. The British Empire basically modernised itself out of existence, becoming the commonwealth, which is a very different thing to an empire, though we are all taking a long time to shed the shadow of Empire. Once upon a time my ancestors were busy dying of various diseases and being poor as it gets in the east end of London a few generations back, invisible to those above...once upon a time my friends ancestors were in a very similar situation on an island in the Caribbean...the 'rulers' didn't necessarily have the right to do whatever they wanted to our respective groups anymore, but it took a long time for that message to sink in. Then his family came here for what they saw as a chance at something better, not least due to the societal reforms that were happening as the result of things like the tragedies of the two world wars, and slowly but surely we ended up better off than our forebears just a few generations back. Sure, we don't have the same skin tone, but we grew up on these same streets together, and thanks to improvements made in our own parents lifetime have almost the same opportunities...except when that ugly shadow tries to come back out in some individual somewhere. Like those muppets who worry about the Melanin content of Prince Harry's girlfriend.
If you take a longer look at history, you will also notice that Britain is indeed still living under the rule of the conquering families that made it part of an Empire about a thousand years ago, and the results of wars more recent. Humanities best bet is to just drag itself forward over and over again, until we escape the shadow. (Even the EU is essentially a club of ex-Empire nations, taking turns ruling each other instead of conquering the world, and unsurprisingly when one group gets to much power for too long, then the trouble starts. It's still a better solution than warships and violence mind you.) That goes for white nations, black nations, yellow nations, red nations, blue nations, tartan nations, nations with stripes, nations with polka dots....sooner or later we have to stop hitting each other on the head, standing on the faces of those below us to scramble up some kind of ladder, fighting those beside us in case they get something we don't have.
History can be a gift, or a curse, it's up to us to do something positive with it...and I think that's what some of these nations have chosen to do. To use the positive, acknowledge and attempt to repair the damage of the negative, and move forwards recognising a sort of familial bond through a shared past.
 
^ Good points. Although I would argue World War 2 bankrupted Britain and killed off the empire along with strong independent movements. India had to fight tooth and nail, and you ever heard of the Mau, Mau uprising/rebellion/revolt? The UK did not give up its colonies willingly, if it were possible Churchill and his ilk would still have the old status quo intact, but he was a 19th century man not a 20th century one.
The irony is the hard line Brexiters believe the Commonwealth will come and save the day but I doubt very much the combined wealth of Canada, Australia, India, NZ and the other parts of the Commonwealth matches the economic power of the EU. If colonisation, tribalism, civil war etc had not destroyed Africa, just how much of a booming economic success that continent could have been. The U.K would be begging to join them!
 
Even the EU is essentially a club of ex-Empire nations, taking turns ruling each other instead of conquering the world

I take real offense at that. Not all 28 EU members are ex-Imperialists or ex-Colonialists or war criminals.

And the crimes committed by the British Empire include the hanging of nineteen year old students.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evagoras_Pallikarides
 
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^ Good points. Although I would argue World War 2 bankrupted Britain and killed off the empire along with strong independent movements. India had to fight tooth and nail, and you ever heard of the Mau, Mau uprising/rebellion/revolt? The UK did not give up its colonies willingly, if it were possible Churchill and his ilk would still have the old status quo intact, but he was a 19th century man not a 20th century one.
The irony is the hard line Brexiters believe the Commonwealth will come and save the day but I doubt very much the combined wealth of Canada, Australia, India, NZ and the other parts of the Commonwealth matches the economic power of the EU. If colonisation, tribalism, civil war etc had not destroyed Africa, just how much of a booming economic success that continent could have been. The U.K would be begging to join them!

I think the resurgent Chinese Empire has that particular area sewn up.
And totally, but again with shades of grey...Britain had had its fill of war and was moving away from Empire, (partially because ww2 had done for race relations what world war 1 had done for class...it's hard to keep judging someone as inferior to you once you have stood side by side and died together, all while getting screwed by the decisions made above you.) and some of those uprisings were in part about timetable and power vacuums (you've said you are going, just bloody go, and I want to be charge when you go, not him over there, I don't like him.) being fought over...that's particularly true in India, and it's how you end up with Pakistan and Bangladesh further down the line. It's true throughout history...old conflicts, tribal, familial, ideological, suddenly resurface when Empires fall. Britain and Europe after the Romans, Africa after the 19th century Age of Empires, Yugoslavia after the Cold War. (And arguably again now with Europe...the end of the Cold War has eventually led to the discontent in the EU now...nothing brings nations together more than a conqueror or enemy...Reagan had that right when talking about the human race. And Star Trek too, from a certain perspective.)
I am not hugely familiar with the Mau Mau, I mostly know the name through its later incarnation as a street gang in the US.
I do think the Empire would have kept its word...it certainly did leave other places without a fight, especially compared to other empires. (France and its word led to Vietnam.) This is especially true in India...and you can see it in the way we live in bungalows, wear pyjamas, drink a ton of tea and eat curry, while India romps around playing Cricket, has insane amounts of civil service English and gets in angry fights with its nearest national relations. Empire, an ugly nasty thing, mutated itself into death in the face of something bigger and nastier, even if if it was a bigger nastier version of itself (The Nazis and its Third Reich.)
I don't want to sound all 'workers of the world unite' either, but it's always been about power and riches and not skin colour or religion...those are just stuff used to make the nasty things easy, and they really work too well for people who would use that. If Delroy and his gang didn't mug Charlie for white and in his estate, and Charlie didn't join that gang and beat up Delroy for 'taking our jobs/houses' and being black, and if they both weren't making snide jokes about the 'Paki shop' on the corner in school the next day, then maybe, just maybe, they could both get on in life and do something about improving life around them. Admittedly, someone somewhere will probably then just start another war, and just as Delroy and Charlie find out how much they are the same, they will probably die in some field far from home.
And that's why we need things like Trek...because then the other is just another, another us, and there is hope and a future. And all of this bloody millennia old cycle will have final run out of steam to keep turning and crushing us.
Or we can look back...and blame x for y for x for y based on arbitrary definitions...skin colour...religion...ginger hair...a Roman nose...blond hair...black hair...being from the village below the seven hills, being from the other side of that tree on the savannah...all of whom, at some point were brutal oppressors, all of whom at some point were oppressed, until the next biggest baddest bunch walked over, sailed over, flew a drone overhead and sold us their cola.
 
I take real offense at that. Not all 27 EU members are ex-Imperialists or ex-Colonialists or war criminals.

And the crimes committed by the British Empire include the hanging of nineteen year old students.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evagoras_Pallikarides

No, they aren't, it is a bit of a rhetorical generalisation...but the founding group of the EU includes Germany, France, Spain, Portugal and Italy...and then the Brits. That is pretty much all the Age of Empires and further back, once you start looking at the Norse etc. powers in one bunch, and they are all, for want of a better word, the main players. It's a flippant humourous point more than anything (hence the brackets) of a serious analysis of the Eu (particularly the modern grown version)
And yes, the British Empire did nasty horrible things...that's what Empires, historically, do. It's what all nasty brutish human conflicts, historically, do. It's trying to not continue doing it that's the hard part, especially when it's so easy to use group (a) doing something nasty to justify group (b) then doing something nastier...when does it end? When we are all dead? When we do DNA tests and carve the world up and send everyone, literally everyone 'back where they came from' ? There isn't the space.
I am no apologist for the British Empire, it was gone before i was born. So was pretty much every Empire that actually used the word in its name. Every little tribe, village and group that didn't get on with every other little tribe for whatever reason (ultimately power and resources ir decided it was entitled to.) did bigger and nastier things compared to those that came before...culminating in the global slave trade, the world wars, genocides...all that shit in the middle twentieth century before we suddenly realised we actually had the tools to wipe every last one of us out. Then we stopped and eyed each other warily and caught our breathe. But good news..we can start the whole damn fight again, we can use history to declare each other villains, use science and philosophies in place of religion to justify new tribal lines, and all be enemies again, just like the good old days right?
Or we could just not do that. Because it's stupid and wrong.
Take the good useful bits from history, learn the the nasty bits to make sure they don't happen again.
There are no monsters, no heroes, just people making choice after choice. You want to stop monsters stop learning to hate, but don't stop learning.
There is no black, white, whatever...there are just people.us. Star Trek showed that with a narrative hammer and face paint, and Martin Luther King put it into words, and Morgan Freeman summed it up with a simple conversation.
 
Karl Marx was right about one thing, the people at the top use the people at the bottom to fight their nasty little wars (political, racial, cultural etc) and keep them too busy hating each other to notice their real enemy is sitting at the top crying all the way to the bank. It's why every clever nation makes sure their armed forces and police are treated fairly well, once you lose the them, you've lost your hold on power.
20th century Exhibit 1 The Russian Revolution....bye bye Tsar Nicholas, hello Lenin....
The Romanovs might still be running things if they looked after their soldiers better.
 
Karl Marx was right about one thing, the people at the top use the people at the bottom to fight their nasty little wars (political, racial, cultural etc) and keep them too busy hating each other to notice their real enemy is sitting at the top crying all the way to the bank. It's why every clever nation makes sure their their armed forces are treated well, once you lose the army, you've lost your hold on power.
20th century Exhibit 1 The Russian Revolution....bye bye Tsar Nicholas, hello Lenin....
The Romanovs might still be running things if they looked after their soldiers better.

Doctor Who summed it up nicely in the Curse of Fenric...the black and white pawns should fight together.
 
No, they aren't, it is a bit of a rhetorical generalisation...but the founding group of the EU includes Germany, France, Spain, Portugal and Italy...and then the Brits...
Heck, even up to the 1960s, Imperialist Belgium was committing (or at the very least turning a blind eye to it) what some might call "atrocities" in Africa, specifically in the Belgian Congo -- simply in order to profit from the rubber trade.
 
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Heck, even up to the 1960s, Imperialist Belgium was committing (or at the very least turning a blind eye to it) what some might call "atrocities" in Africa, specifically in the Belgian Congo -- simply in order to profit from the rubber trade.

There's no need to put atrocities in quotation marks. What they did absolutely qualifies. And their king was really good at selling Belgium's disgusting actions as "civilizing" Congo.
 
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I know Wonder Woman has been getting a lot of criticism for it's lack of Women of Colour, but I have to admit I was picked up on quite a few Turbans etc showing the variety of soldiers in the crowd scenes.
I watched the movie yesterday, counted about three Amazons who did not look like an advert for Miss USA 1950 lol
 
I'm reading the criticism in the above linked article with some disbelief. There are 3 prominently shown black Amazon's. One is in a caretaker role, one is shown to be a particularly tough warrior, and the third is a Politician. If that distribution wasn't carefully selected with purpose by the filmmakers to avoid racial criticism I'll eat my hat. And yet it's still not good enough.
 
Amazons are multi-racial. There are African, Asian and European Amazons. Of course in the myths the Amazons are not Greek. They come from Asia Minor.

Ah that's alright then. Not read about them in a while. It's just at the very least, if you are going to monotone cast a cast, there should at least be a historical reason....I don think anyone complains about the grimacing penis hymn that is 300. But I may have missed it.
 
Did they even look vaguely Greek?

With the exception of a couple of Amazons, the rest looked Greek to me. :shrug:

Of course in the myths the Amazons are not Greek. They come from Asia Minor.

Asia Minor was Greek in antiquity, at least culturally if not always politically. (Ephesus‎, Halicarnassus‎, Miletus, Cyme, Smyrna, Byzantium, Sinope, Myrina, etc.)
Different ancient authors place Amazons in different places, Anatolia, Scythia, Libya, the Black Sea, Caucasus, Illyria, even the Greek island of Lesbos which would make sense since....
 
With the exception of a couple of Amazons, the rest looked Greek to me. :shrug:



Asia Minor was Greek in antiquity, at least culturally if not always politically. (Ephesus‎, Halicarnassus‎, Miletus, Cyme, Smyrna, Byzantium, Sinope, Myrina, etc.)
Different ancient authors place Amazons in different places, Anatolia, Scythia, Libya, the Black Sea, Caucasus, Illyria, even the Greek island of Lesbos which would make sense since....

Yup. Am only passingly familiar. I leave classical history to the Mrs. XD
Which means we will probably see Wonder Woman next year some time.
 
Karl Marx was right about one thing, the people at the top use the people at the bottom to fight their nasty little wars (political, racial, cultural etc) and keep them too busy hating each other to notice their real enemy is sitting at the top crying all the way to the bank. It's why every clever nation makes sure their armed forces and police are treated fairly well, once you lose the them, you've lost your hold on power.
20th century Exhibit 1 The Russian Revolution....bye bye Tsar Nicholas, hello Lenin....
The Romanovs might still be running things if they looked after their soldiers better.

Ironic, as the Soviet Union was just as guilty of such things.
 
Asia Minor was Greek in antiquity, at least culturally if not always politically. (Ephesus‎, Halicarnassus‎, Miletus, Cyme, Smyrna, Byzantium, Sinope, Myrina, etc.)
Different ancient authors place Amazons in different places, Anatolia, Scythia, Libya, the Black Sea, Caucasus, Illyria, even the Greek island of Lesbos which would make sense since....
Yes, but IIRC the Greeks portrayed the Amazons as not being Greek culturally or politically.
 
h that's alright then. Not read about them in a while. It's just at the very least, if you are going to monotone cast a cast, there should at least be a historical reason
Just to be clear, I was referring to the Amazons in DC Comics, who have been portrayed as multi-racial since the 80's.
 
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