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Breen attack on Earth - foolish?

As said, they probably didn't bring their dampers with them for that attack, as the victims did not report seeing anything of the sort. Too risky for the Breen.

It's not as if the Breen are worse off now, though. They were always at odds with the Cardassians, and now Cardassia has been negated as an interstellar power - a win for the Breen. They were always at odds with the Federation and the Romulans, and nothing has changed there, either. They were always feared a bit, and now they are feared a lot, being the only ones to successfully attack Earth on a war footing. A great propaganda victory there, one that won't be marred much by an "also ran" defeat in the greater war; their enemies will remember the strike, not the surrender (in which the Breen themselves were not defeated, but simply ordered to retreat and then cease and desist).

We don't know if the Breen really lost anything in that game, as we have no idea of the contents of that peace (or truce) treaty.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Possible, but if you think about it, losing a fleet attacking earth just to make a statement is really no different than losing a fleet in a regular military engagement.

Except losing a fleet in general is considered a loss.

They got the Romulans, Klingons, The Federation and the Cardassians as adversaries now.

Trade opportunities, expansion-they're going to be watched closely.

I can't believe the Fed Alliance wouldn't make them give back the planets they were given and on top of that draw up all types of restrictions.
 
The matte shot of San Francisco after the attack remains one of the dumbest images ever on Star Trek. The Golden Gate Bridge is clearly cut in two, but, given how suspension bridges work (everything hangs from the main cables), there's no way that any portion of the roadway deck would not have plunged into the drink. Hell, there's no way that tower could remain standing, bent as it is shown. Oh, I'm sure someone will suggest that antigrav technology or some other nonsense prevented this, but, really, it's just a lame mistake by artists who didn't do their homework.
 
Okay, I see your point about there being no real facts, but my problem is that you basically are making excuses here! You use the phrases 'reasonable to assume', 'stands to reason' and 'Id wager that'! These arent really phrases that should be used in response to such a huge event as the Breen attacking Earth with new superweapons!
What superweapons?

And no, I'm not making excuses. Allow me to clarify that point.

Yes, I used qualifying phrases, as you point out. But all of those phrases were in reference to things that are icing on the cake. I need no qualifying phrases when speaking about what was clearly the main point of the attack in-universe: to shake everyone up. To deal a psychological blow to to the Federation, to impact the morale of Starfleet, and to show them and their allies just how badass they were. I think those things are blindingly obvious from watching the show.

Everything I said in that paragraph you quoted - about how many high-level tacticians Starfleet lost in the attack, about how many Breen ships participated in the operation, about the possibility that there was some sort of trickery/sabotage/informant/what have you involved - all of that is speculation, yes, but it's also all superfluous. The creators were under no obligation to touch on any of those things in a definitive manner, because they had already provided an adequate reason for the attack: the morale blow. Would it have been NICE to see a few of those things addressed? Sure. It would be nice to see a LOT of little forgotten/ignored details in a LOT of shows (not just Star Trek) addressed. But not doing so isn't "bad writing".
In the Star Trek universe, this is probably the biggest event in Earth history in a long, long time, far bigger than the Borg scare.
That seems extremely unlikely to me. The Borg were about to begin assimilating the entire planet; if they hadn't been stopped by the Ent-D, they would have done so (and that would have had rather drastic repercussions for the UFP as a whole). Whereas the Breen attack, while it did real damage, did not have nearly the scope of the Borg scare. It wasn't a global event, and there was never any danger of the Breen attack force decimating Earth's entire surface or anything.
But it didnt really matter in the show, there didnt seem to be any consequences at all, so what reason was there to put in apart from to 'up the ante' somehow, because the writers were out of ideas?
By what measure do you conclude that "the writers were out of ideas, so they just went with this thing"? You don't LIKE the ideas they came up with, but that doesn't invalidate them as ideas, nor can you know that they actually were going "Uh, crap, we have no idea what to do here... Oh, hey! Random third party! How about, uh... Breen, yeah!"

That aside, there IS a purpose to the Breen. The balance of power was no longer favoring the Dominion. Once the Romulans joined the war, things really swung the Allies' way. Not that things were easy, mind you, but they were able to finally take the offensive, into Chin'Toka (and took that system), Martok and company destroyed an entire shipyard with a single ship, the Dominion STILL wasn't getting any reinforcements from the GQ, the Klingon raids in "Once More Unto the Breach" were successful (and the Klingons did make it back to Allied lines nearly unscathed afterward, too), etc... And the general feeling of near-hopelessness that was present through parts of season 6 (with practically every mention of the ongoing war reminding us how badly it was going) was missing. Even eps like "The Siege of Ar-558", which was obviously meant to be dark and grim and about the horrors of war and all that... consider what happened in that ep, not emotionally, but tactically: a badly fatigued, worn-out Starfleet ground force DID HOLD against a numerically superior force of Jem'Hadar! Things just weren't going as badly for the Allies anymore. The Breen were brought in to change that. Suddenly, there is a new force to contend with, one that brings a new weapon to the table. That was why they were introduced, as a way to tip things back in the other direction, without doing something as drastic as suddenly allowing the Dominion to use the wormhole freely again.
Yeah, sorry, but just destroying the ship only to have it come back a couple of episodes later is just bad and lazy writing. Either actually get rid of the Defiant, or come up with someone better that makes more sense. It would be like killing off O'Brien, then the next episode Bashir comes in and says he bought him back to life. Cheap and clumsy.
Was it more or less cheap and lazy than destroying the Ent-nil, only to replace it with nearly the exact same ship at the end of the following movie? (For the record, I don't think either qualifies as "lazy". I don't see the problem with bringing in a new ship the way they did. In both TVH and "The Dogs of War", there was more than enough justification - in-universe - for why Starfleet would give them a replacement of the same class, and allow them to holdover the name of the destroyed ship as well). The Defiant's destruction was part of an overall arc: The Breen attack Earth. They keep their energy dampener a secret. They crush the enemy's morale, OR, they make the enemy react with aggression, thinking "these guys are serious, we'd better strike back." Either way, they win, since striking back is exactly what they wanted them to do. NOW they reveal their weapon, decimating a large frontline fleet and retaking a strategic location.

To have the entire fleet get flattened, yet have the hero ship survive, would have been much MORE stupid, IMO.

And your analogy makes no sense. A ship can be destroyed, and another ship with almost the same characteristics built to replace it, in both real life and in Trek. Bringing someone back to LIFE isn't so simple, nor should it be depicted as such. For a main character to die and just come back later like "Oh yeah, he's back, by the way", WOULD be dumb.

Incidentally, they didn't even do that with the ships. Neither the Ent-A or the Sao Paulo were introduced in a "oh yeah, by the way, we got a new ship" way. A big deal was made out of the first appearance of both of those vessels.

And to the question of "was the attack worth it"? In the short term, yes. They impressed the hell out of the Vorta and Founders, earning greater standing in a short amount of time, and the Alliance reacted exactly as they wanted them to, flying right into a trap. In the long-term? Maybe not so much, since the UFP was pretty determined after that, though to be fair, the Cardassian rebellion played in role in the final outcome, and the Breen had no way to predict that. But even if it WASN'T the absolute wisest strategy... that's not bad writing. Even if it had backfired horribly on the Breen in the short term, that's STILL not bad writing. Real military leaders do make mistakes; real military forces do commit strategic blunders, or miscalculate the value of a given move. It happens in real life, why shouldn't it happen in Trek?
My memory is a little hazy on the last season, but I cant really remember anything the Breen did that couldnt have been done by the Dominion or Cardassia. Just let the Dominion develop that weapon and thats pretty much it, I think.
So taking the Dominion or Cardassians, whose style and capabilities had been more than well-established by that point, and just having them magically produce this totally out-of-left-field weapon in the seventh season, would be LESS lazy or MORE creative than taking a species that had been name-dropped a bunch of times but almost never seen, and fleshing them out a bit, presenting us with a new and VERY alien menace, spending money and time to create their costumes and ships and those weird voices they had, and allowing them to bring a new weapon with them?

Frankly, I think that would have been silly. Introducing something like the energy dampening weapon as a new factor was best handled via a new player entering the war.
The reason they were 'underdeveloped' is because they were bought in at the last minute and thereafter had no real impact on the story.
Except they served to further drive the developing wedge between Damar and Weyoun/the Dominion that helped lead to the rebellion. The relationship between the various high-level Dominion players during those last few eps was a strong driver of Damar's thoughts and actions.
As far as Im concerned, this just makes it easier for writers to write more terrible shows, because they know its just going to get accepted. The number of times some Voyager fan sticks up for Janeway not just setting a timer to blow up the Caretakers array, and not strand them in the Delta Quandrant, cos of some technobabble rubbish is incredible to me. People shouldnt make excuses about this sort of thing. Sometimes bad writing just happens, I get it, nothings ever perfect, but it doesnt have to be lazy writing as well, and thats what the Breen attack was.
The Janeway/timer example is different, because there IS no explanation for why they couldn't do that. I still say the main reason for the Breen attack, the morale blow and psychological "look what we can do", is glaringly obvious in the show. Nothing about why a timer wasn't used on the Caretaker's array is glaringly obvious, AND, making matters worse is the fact that coming up with a different way to write that scene, so that they could destroy the array without getting home yet make it make sense, would have been very easy.

I simply do not think the Breen attack was lazy writing. THE BEST and most creative idea DS9 ever had? No. But not lazy, or bad.
 
[Yes, I used qualifying phrases, as you point out. But all of those phrases were in reference to things that are icing on the cake. I need no qualifying phrases when speaking about what was clearly the main point of the attack in-universe: to shake everyone up. To deal a psychological blow to to the Federation, to impact the morale of Starfleet, and to show them and their allies just how badass they were. I think those things are blindingly obvious from watching the show.

I hate it when people say this, but Im busy today and I dont have as much time as Id like to answer all this. However, I decided to watch 'The Changing Face of Evil' this morning as I had my breakfast, and guess what? Nobody seems to care about the Breen attack! Miles and Bashir play with the Alamo model, Worf and Ezri talk about how dreamy/infantile Bashir is, and Sisko has an argument with Yates about whether its safe for her to go out on shippig runs. This last point is the only one that has anything to do with the Breen attack, but its not even a big dramatic fight, there are actually a fair amount of smiles!
One of my favourite scenes in DS9 is the one right at the start of 'In the Cards', you have a long shot going around the dinner table, and you immediately get just how depressed and defeated everyone feels. Nothing like that happens in 'The Changing Face of Evil', until the battle of Chin'Toka. That battle is the thing that gets an emotional response from the characters, so why not just have that battle and not bother including the Earth attack at all? The show could have lost it all together and still had the same emotional impact. Maybe somewhere else in the Galaxy, or on Earth, people are scared and psychologically wounded, but not on the station. Sure, Weyoun and the Breen guy talk about how it was a psychological blow, but we never actually see it.

I still say the main reason for the Breen attack, the morale blow and psychological "look what we can do", is glaringly obvious in the show.

Where is it glaringly obvious? Everyone seems fine!

By what measure do you conclude that "the writers were out of ideas, so they just went with this thing"? You don't LIKE the ideas they came up with, but that doesn't invalidate them as ideas, nor can you know that they actually were going "Uh, crap, we have no idea what to do here... Oh, hey! Random third party! How about, uh... Breen, yeah!"

I can conclude that with reference to the other things going on that season. The fact is that the last season of DS9 was cram packed with big ideas that mostly didnt work out, because there was so much going on at the same time. They had Benny whatsit from 'Far Beyond the Stars' apparently writing DS9 in the past. They had the idea that Sisko was actually birthed by a prophet so eh could fulfil some godly duty, or something. You had Dukat and Winn screwing, and trying to unlock the Pah'wraiths. Ever notice how the finale is really just a large amount of big ideas battling for space?

That aside, there IS a purpose to the Breen. The balance of power was no longer favoring the Dominion. Once the Romulans joined the war, things really swung the Allies' way. Not that things were easy, mind you, but they were able to finally take the offensive, into Chin'Toka (and took that system), Martok and company destroyed an entire shipyard with a single ship, the Dominion STILL wasn't getting any reinforcements from the GQ, the Klingon raids in "Once More Unto the Breach" were successful (and the Klingons did make it back to Allied lines nearly unscathed afterward, too), etc... And the general feeling of near-hopelessness that was present through parts of season 6 (with practically every mention of the ongoing war reminding us how badly it was going) was missing. Even eps like "The Siege of Ar-558", which was obviously meant to be dark and grim and about the horrors of war and all that... consider what happened in that ep, not emotionally, but tactically: a badly fatigued, worn-out Starfleet ground force DID HOLD against a numerically superior force of Jem'Hadar! Things just weren't going as badly for the Allies anymore. The Breen were brought in to change that. Suddenly, there is a new force to contend with, one that brings a new weapon to the table. That was why they were introduced, as a way to tip things back in the other direction, without doing something as drastic as suddenly allowing the Dominion to use the wormhole freely again.

Again, I think it would have been just as good or bad to have the Dominion come up with some new strategy or technology. They'd already established the new race of Jem'Hadar in 'This Little Ship', and that awesome new ship in 'Valiant', so why not use those? I dont see it as any dumber as the Breen having them. Why didnt the Breen just attack before? Like they could have become allies with the Romulans or attacked the Cardassians or something, since they had these weapons that could sap the power and apparently a pretty huge military. Plus, with the Dominion you have a power which has already been establish, and who the audience already feels a certain way about. I found it hard to hate the Breen and want them defeated, because I knew nothing about them, and I knew the series was about to end. At this point, with only a few shows remaining, it seems better to concentrate on what you have.


And your analogy makes no sense. A ship can be destroyed, and another ship with almost the same characteristics built to replace it, in both real life and in Trek. Bringing someone back to LIFE isn't so simple, nor should it be depicted as such. For a main character to die and just come back later like "Oh yeah, he's back, by the way", WOULD be dumb.

Obviously I was slightly facetious with that analogy. Also, you cant have another Defiant so easily. To quote Behr (and Memory Alpha) again:

As Behr explains, "The ship had become a character that had caught on in people's hearts and minds." The producers however felt that something was needed to give the Breen an impactful introduction'

So, not only does Behr consider the ship 'a character', he also thinks that 'something was needed to give the Breen an impactful introduction.' Looks like he doesnt think the attack on Earth was worth much either.

[The Breen] served to further drive the developing wedge between Damar and Weyoun/the Dominion that helped lead to the rebellion. The relationship between the various high-level Dominion players during those last few eps was a strong driver of Damar's thoughts and actions.

Yeah, but the division between those two forces had been evident for a long time prior to the Breen, I wouldnt say they were needed in order for Damar to turn his back on the Dominion.

Whatever the impact of the Breen, I think its fairly obvious from all this that the attack on Earth had absolutely no impact on the show.
 
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Even though the Breen lost a lot of ships, they achieved their goal which was to show the Federation they were extremely vulnerable and to demoralize the Federation alliance.

However...

I have always had a problem with the Breen attack on Earth. Surely Earth of all Federation Planets would be heavily protected; the Federation government was seated there. How did the Breen, first of all, get so far into Federation territory, and second, how did they destroy not only the fleet that was protecting Earth, but the planetary defense system.

The Breen attack on Earth seem unrealistic to me.
 
Nobody ever claimed that the Breen would have destroyed the defending fleet or the fixed fortifications. Indeed, it is stated that the attack was beaten back by the defenders. Doesn't mean the Breen couldn't have gotten a few punches through...

Berlin was heavily defended in WWII. The RAF managed to bomb Berlin early on in the war, though. It just meant that the RAF lost most of its bombers in those early strikes. Were they worth it? Probably not, but they did fit the (probably false) doctrine of terrorizing the enemy by demonstrating that they weren't safe even in their own capital.

No defense is completely effective, unless it forms a continuous impenetrable physical wall. The US President is heavily defended, but as so many action movie heroes and villains like to point out, somebody will always get through and inflict some degree of damage (often lethal, considering how powerful killing tools today's handguns tend to be) if he or she has enough determination and a bit of luck.

Certainly the Breen attack wasn't an outright military success, because we know that a successful, unopposed starship (even a single one) can completely extinguish life on a planet and remove all traces of civilization from it. Since the Breen only managed to pockmark San Francisco, their strike should probably be considered 99.7% military failure. But the 0.3% success was the only thing they needed from the psychological point of view.

Timo Saloniemi
 
The Breen target wasn't Earth, it was every single Federation planet and colony.

"See? We were able to attack Earth, the most heavily defended planet in the Federation. Are you sure Starfleet can protect you? Should they not be providing starships for your protection rather than defending a planet that isn't even in the Federation?"
 
No, the way I always saw it is as this.

Breen want to expand, and right now there is a major war going on. They play off both sides, privateers making hay, and sit back. (and there is the option that part of the reason they joined the Dominion is though a changeling.) The Dominion make them a nice offer, so they do a "Dolittle" raid that most likely didn't cost them much, and even if they had a bloody nose, they are still tons better then say, the Cardies who where crushed. They may very well have kept the worlds they won and now can lay low and integrate it into there mini-empire, while other lesser powers are in much worst shape.
 
Nobody ever claimed that the Breen would have destroyed the defending fleet or the fixed fortifications. Indeed, it is stated that the attack was beaten back by the defenders. Doesn't mean the Breen couldn't have gotten a few punches through...

Berlin was heavily defended in WWII. The RAF managed to bomb Berlin early on in the war, though. It just meant that the RAF lost most of its bombers in those early strikes. Were they worth it? Probably not, but they did fit the (probably false) doctrine of terrorizing the enemy by demonstrating that they weren't safe even in their own capital.

No defense is completely effective, unless it forms a continuous impenetrable physical wall. The US President is heavily defended, but as so many action movie heroes and villains like to point out, somebody will always get through and inflict some degree of damage (often lethal, considering how powerful killing tools today's handguns tend to be) if he or she has enough determination and a bit of luck.

Certainly the Breen attack wasn't an outright military success, because we know that a successful, unopposed starship (even a single one) can completely extinguish life on a planet and remove all traces of civilization from it. Since the Breen only managed to pockmark San Francisco, their strike should probably be considered 99.7% military failure. But the 0.3% success was the only thing they needed from the psychological point of view.

Timo Saloniemi

I'll say your argument has merit. I may have overstated that the fleet protecting Earth was destroyed, obviously it wasn't; the Breen did suffer badly.

But

The most important planet in the federation being attacked is a bit much. How did they get so far into Federation space? was Earths orbital defenses that inadequate during a time of war, not to mention a war with an enemy they hadn't encountered since the likes of the Borg? This is the seat of the Federation Government, this is still just to unlikely.

during WWII, the British nor the Germans had high yield photon torpedos, quantum torpedos, Soveriegn class and Defiant class Starships, let along highly intersellar detectable technology that could detect enemy ships approaching. All the Brits and the Germans had was radar. I appreciate your anology, But the attack on Earth just seems so unrealistic.
 
Yet in "Descent", the Feds on Earth's Moon were panicked into believing they were being attacked by the Borg, without a warning. Clearly, some people inside the UFP don't put much trust in Starfleet early warning systems.

Which is probably realistic, considering how effective cloaks tend to be.

Sure, we never saw a cloaked Breen ship. Which is probably sufficient proof in itself. :devil:

Timo Saloniemi
 
Yet in "Descent", the Feds on Earth's Moon were panicked into believing they were being attacked by the Borg, without a warning. Clearly, some people inside the UFP don't put much trust in Starfleet early warning systems.

Which is probably realistic, considering how effective cloaks tend to be.

Sure, we never saw a cloaked Breen ship. Which is probably sufficient proof in itself. :devil:

Timo Saloniemi

I've often wondered why Starfleet sent only 40 ships to stop the Borg. I'm sure Picards report stated how powerful they were. an Armada of ships should have been in the Earth Solar system waiting for the Borg, as for the Dominion.:confused:
 
I've often wondered why Starfleet sent only 40 ships to stop the Borg. I'm sure Picards report stated how powerful they were. an Armada of ships should have been in the Earth Solar system waiting for the Borg, as for the Dominion.:confused:

Well, the Borg attack ended a long period of general peacetime for the Federation. Since there were no immediate threats to deal with, most Starfleet ships were probably scattered all over the place. And the speed with which the Cube attacked was probably a factor too. In the case of the Dominion War, Starfleet had years to prepare and group it's ships.

Of course, out-of-universe, 40 ships WAS an armada at that point in the production of the series. Never before had such a large grouping of ships been mentioned in Trek. But then DS9 came with it's more advanced special effects and fleets numbering in the hundreds, making the Wolf 359 fleet look small in comparison.
 
It could have been an attempt to hurt the morale of the Federation citizens. Kinda like the Nazi bombings of London or the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor. Of course I know their were other strategic reasons involved, but it can do a lot of emotional damage when an enemy can hit at the heartland.
 
Of course, out-of-universe, 40 ships WAS an armada at that point in the production of the series.

OTOH, the writers were always cleverly using the spoken word to circumvent the limitations of the VFX. A good example is "Redemption": a fleet of two dozen starships is mentioned in dialogue, even though we only see at most four ships at a time - and then this fleet is claimed in villain dialogue to be far too small to be an actual invasion force! So, at the cost of the VFX for mere four ships, the writers indicated that Starfleet usually operates fleets of hundreds of ships.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I've often wondered why Starfleet sent only 40 ships to stop the Borg. I'm sure Picards report stated how powerful they were. an Armada of ships should have been in the Earth Solar system waiting for the Borg, as for the Dominion.:confused:

Well, the Borg attack ended a long period of general peacetime for the Federation. Since there were no immediate threats to deal with, most Starfleet ships were probably scattered all over the place. And the speed with which the Cube attacked was probably a factor too. In the case of the Dominion War, Starfleet had years to prepare and group it's ships.

Of course, out-of-universe, 40 ships WAS an armada at that point in the production of the series. Never before had such a large grouping of ships been mentioned in Trek. But then DS9 came with it's more advanced special effects and fleets numbering in the hundreds, making the Wolf 359 fleet look small in comparison.

Very good points;)
 
Reminds me of that statement by Shelby that Starfleet would have "the fleet" back up in a year.

It sounded like not only was 40 ships a large fleet for that time, but it was damn near the ONLY fleet Starfleet had.

I think the low fleet number represented the "alien of the week". era.

I think Trek (with DS9) got more real and started adding fleet numbers and groupings and included more Galaxy class ships.

There is no way the TNG era Starfleet could have had a chance against the Dominion, unless they revealed their actual fleet numbers earlier on..
 
The attack on Pearl Harbor was not supposed to send any message; indeed, had it not sent a message (such as "Japs are dangerous" or "the Pacific is being contested now") and would have left the United States passive as ever, it would have been more of a success. Its sole purpose was to knock the US battleship fleet out of action for about a year, and it succeeded in that; it could have been a tad more ambitious (say, total conquest of Hawaii), but it wasn't scaled back with intent - it was executed with maximum force, or at least with what counted for maximum force within the Japanese doctrine of feints and parries.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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