Breaking Bad - Season 3

[Temis the Vorta]

Walter is crazy tonight. I just hope he gets a grip on himself soon or he'll end up in jail or give Skylar the excuse she needs to file a restraining order aganist him.

Everyone has about gone crazy, even Hank.

Yep. I'm much less bored now. All the plot threads are starting to tie together w/this ep.

I just don't get her at all. I can understand the discovery would put their marriage on the rocks but how do you reconcile the woman who was going to huge lengths to keep her husband alive with the one who hates Walt so much she's hoping for him to die so the situation will "resolve itself" and sleeping with other men to get Walt out of the house? And all in a matter of a few weeks.

I'm not so sure I buy Skylar's characterization unless you assume she's never really loved Walt all that much. Maybe she's the kind of person who's never loved anyone (except for her kids, but she infantilizes almost-grown Walt Jr., which is why she thinks learning the truth would devastate him).

She wanted to save his life so he could continue to provide for the kids. Now that she's realized he's betrayed her/put the kids in danger, she gives him the boot. If she truly loved him, at least part of her would be trying to figure out a way to save him - arrange to cut a deal with the cops in exchange for reduced prison time (w/o risking the ire of whoever he'd be ratting out). A tall order, but at least she'd try. If I were in her position I know I would - assuming my marriage hadn't been a sham all along.

Maybe that's her problem - a part of her does realizes her marriage has always been a sham. She can't handle it, so she's acting out in wholly irrational ways.

 

[stj]

^^^That's one possibility, which the writers might even be going for. Personally, I think the idea that everyone is basically miserable living a civilized life and is secretly itching to break bad and be an outlaw (and they don't because they're too cowardly,) is just a trite morality play, except it uses the moral code of the average Hollywood producer as the standard, as opposed to the conventional pieties.

It's still a stretch. Shamming for herself is kind of thick. Jesse was an idjit with chemical assistance, but she did it all by herself? What an accomplishment! Her behavior with Walt while he was actively dying doesn't support, making it something of a retcon. Walter is a great rationalizer but he's not an idiot. He'd have been making excuse for the emptiness of the marriage if that was the case. Plus, if the marriage was so hollow, she would have felt the temptation of the money the moment she realized there was some real money floating around.

Most importantly, Skylar's baditude with Walt makes for sensational scenes But I can't believe a real Skylar would jeopardize her relationship with Walt Jr. A teenage child will forgive drug manufacturing much quicker than parental adultery. A real parent would know it. Walt Jr. is not infantilized, given his cerebral palsy. In the family dynamics, that's the elephant in the room. Walt still has no clue how much he resents Walt Jr. He's taking it out on Jesse. Skylar might feel terrific guilt over Walt's CP but that would just make her more determined to keep her image in Jr.'s eyes clean and bright.

 

[Michael Chris]

I don't watch the show, but that music video was very strange. Poor Albuquerque getting beat up on TV.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Personally, I think the idea that everyone is basically miserable living a civilized life and is secretly itching to break bad and be an outlaw (and they don't because they're too cowardly,) is just a trite morality play

That's only true for Walt.

Jesse wants love and respect but his parents rejected him and his girlfriend died (for which he blames himself). Now he's internalizing the rejection and by "being bad," in effect rejecting himself. He's wallowing in self-punishment because he's exceeded his capacity for emotional resilience. If he stays on the path he's on, he'll eventually commit suicide, either directly or, more likely, by deliberately doing something insanely dangerous.

Skylar has a rigid view of what she and her family should be like, and Walt has blown that view to shreds. She isn't being rationally angry about him putting her and the kids and their finances in danger. Otherwise, she'd have ratted him out immediately. She wants a normal, stable, respectable life and is furious that Walt has disrupted that for no reason she can understand. It's not a coincidence that she's striking back at his "sabotage" with her own respectability-sabotage, having an affair.

As for Hank, I'm wondering whether he was really afraid to go to El Paso, or if he has a hunch about that blue meth that he just can't shake, which would be an example of a TV character being absurdly precognitive (the hunch comes from an instinct that the perp is closer than he realizes?) which TV writing often indulges in. Either way, he doesn't want to rebel. He wants to be SuperCop. If his problem is fear, latching onto the blue meth is a way to rationalize being a "coward." If it's a hunch, then he just has his own path to SuperCop-dom which he thinks is better than El Paso.

That's a pretty decent range of character types and diverse motivations. It's not like the show is doing too much of one thing or just making one point.

Walt Jr. is not infantilized, given his cerebral palsy.

By "infantilizing," I mean Skylar is treating him like a child because he's handicapped. But if he weren't handicapped, maybe she'd do the same thing. He's old enough that he shouldn't be left so entirely in the dark, and I doubt he'd flip out if he learned the truth about Dad. It's not like he's a child molester!

Walter is a great rationalizer but he's not an idiot. He'd have been making excuse for the emptiness of the marriage if that was the case.

Walt obviously genuinely loves Skylar, so to him, the marriage isn't empty.

Plus, if the marriage was so hollow, she would have felt the temptation of the money the moment she realized there was some real money floating around.

Skylar doesn't want money - she wants respectability. If she was willing to trade respectability for the money, she wouldn't be mad at Walt. She'd be encouraging him to cook more meth.

 

[stj]

Walt suddenly being hapless after so long getting off on being a man of action is still iffy, in my mind at least. How does Dean's fear of El Paso or hope of nailing Heisenberg connect to fighting people, even friends? But these might just be stalling with some fake drama. And the writers might pull a rabbit out of the hat so it makes more sense. Plus, even if they don't, there's lots worse characterization out there.

The glaring thing I still can't get as rational in any form but advancing the plot is Skylar (by the way, guesswork spelling for personal names is good enough for me.) If she's so hipped on respectability, sabotaging respectability herself doesn't quite follow. Even more to the point, in practice there's nothing quite so respectable as money. Plus, she and us see that Walt Jr. is actively pained by his ignorance. He may be hurt to discover Dad's a meth cooker but finding out Mom's a ho is really gonna hurt. A grown woman would know this.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Walt suddenly being hapless after so long getting off on being a man of action is still iffy, in my mind at least. How does Dean's fear of El Paso or hope of nailing Heisenberg connect to fighting people, even friends? But these might just be stalling with some fake drama. And the writers might pull a rabbit out of the hat so it makes more sense. Plus, even if they don't, there's lots worse characterization out there.

I don't think he's as hapless as all that, however, it's not the same guy that blew up Tuco's place.

I think Dean's getting into fights to prove to himself that he's still got balls. I think he was worried he's not tough enough to handle things any more. So, I disagree about the fake drama. And now, with the lead on Heisenberg, he has a shot at making a BIG case all on his own.

The glaring thing I still can't get as rational in any form but advancing the plot is Skylar (by the way, guesswork spelling for personal names is good enough for me.) If she's so hipped on respectability, sabotaging respectability herself doesn't quite follow. Even more to the point, in practice there's nothing quite so respectable as money. Plus, she and us see that Walt Jr. is actively pained by his ignorance. He may be hurt to discover Dad's a meth cooker but finding out Mom's a ho is really gonna hurt. A grown woman would know this.

A grown rational woman who didn't discover her dying husband has been cooking meth perhaps.

Skylar is hurt. Very hurt. And I think she's acting out. She wants to hurt Walt, hurt him so much that he will just go away. And if that means going back on her idea of respectability...then, yeah, she's going to do that. And maybe in her mind, sleeping with someone isn't as bad as cooking meth.

What I like about this show, is watching people compromise their ideals to get what they want, the choices they are making to do "good" and that it seems to constantly hurt the ones they love.

For example, Skylar is trying to get Walt out of their lives--he's a danger--and how she's doing it is hurting Walt Jr.

 

[Ryan]

And maybe in her mind, sleeping with someone isn't as bad as cooking meth.

Notice how here relationship with Ted is designed specifically to get rid of Walt. Skylar's not reciprocal to him at all (notice how fast she left his house and shot down the idea of moving in with him). It's just a means to an end which somehow makes it even worse.

 

[stj]

For example, Skylar is trying to get Walt out of their lives--he's a danger--and how she's doing it is hurting Walt Jr.

The notion about Dean testing himself fits the bar fight. But taking a threatening posture with his partner is no way to convince someone you're not scared witless. Which, come to think of it, may be all that's going on with Dean. We may be overanalyzing. Dean being a dumbass coward indirectly makes Walt look better.

A show with a premise like this always faces the problem of lapsing into glorification of badassery. Particularly since the show never shows the Waltness of the Mexicans or African-Americans. Insofar as the show has a valid theme, it's that we all could be Walt, if we were broken like him, that any of us could rationalize all sorts of evils. That is the real hook that gets you, not absurd melodrama with Walt dropping little bombs that conveniently go off exactly when he wants.

But the quote above pins down the biggest stumbling block to accepting the turn in Skylar's character. It's hard enough to accept that Skylar didn't really have much feeling for Walt (which we have to because Ted's embezzlement is no problem for her.) It's hard to accept that she could be so cunning as to completely deceive Walt, as opposed to Walt basically realizing it but rationalizing it away. But I can't think the Skylar we saw (admittedly a sketchily drawn character, like most women characters on television,) didn't have much feeling for her son. Plus, since she could rat him out he'd be gone. The show's excuse just isn't believable, to me anyhow.

If everybody's just going crazy, well, I don't much enjoy looking down on crazy people, particularly the childish TV version of crazy.

 

[Professor Zoom]

For example, Skylar is trying to get Walt out of their lives--he's a danger--and how she's doing it is hurting Walt Jr.

The notion about Dean testing himself fits the bar fight. But taking a threatening posture with his partner is no way to convince someone you're not scared witless. Which, come to think of it, may be all that's going on with Dean. We may be overanalyzing. Dean being a dumbass coward indirectly makes Walt look better.

Dean's threatening posture isn't about him testing himself. Dean IS freaked out. Dean, I think, always thought of himself as invulnerable, but the moment he played with the big boys, that was severely tested. Dean isn't as invulnerable, isn't as ready to play with the big boys as he thought.

The fight was to test himself, but, the moment with his partner reveals he isn't really over the explosion.

A show with a premise like this always faces the problem of lapsing into glorification of badassery. Particularly since the show never shows the Waltness of the Mexicans or African-Americans. Insofar as the show has a valid theme, it's that we all could be Walt, if we were broken like him, that any of us could rationalize all sorts of evils. That is the real hook that gets you, not absurd melodrama with Walt dropping little bombs that conveniently go off exactly when he wants.

To me the show is about ordinary people who go bad. It's not about badassery. It's about good people, or rather people who thought of themselves as good, who go bad. And in some ways, very very bad.

But the quote above pins down the biggest stumbling block to accepting the turn in Skylar's character. It's hard enough to accept that Skylar didn't really have much feeling for Walt (which we have to because Ted's embezzlement is no problem for her.)

I don't understand this. I think she has a TREMENDOUS amount of feelings for Walt, and that's why the betrayal on Walt's part hurt her so much.

It's hard to accept that she could be so cunning as to completely deceive Walt, as opposed to Walt basically realizing it but rationalizing it away.

I don't know what you mean here. Skylar told Walt. There wasn't any attempt to deceive Walt. Walt said "I did this for my family, for you." So, she went out and did her best to destroy the family, to destroy the relationship between her and Walt.

But I can't think the Skylar we saw (admittedly a sketchily drawn character, like most women characters on television,) didn't have much feeling for her son. Plus, since she could rat him out he'd be gone. The show's excuse just isn't believable, to me anyhow.

I think Skylar has a LOT of feelings for her son, and she sees how much Jr. idolizes Walt...but Jr. doesn't really KNOW Walt. What Walt has been up to. And she doesn't want to destroy that image.

She said it to the lawyer, she hopes Walt dies soon and then all of the bad things can just never been spoken of again.

She's playing a waiting game.

If everybody's just going crazy, well, I don't much enjoy looking down on crazy people, particularly the childish TV version of crazy.

I don't think people are playing crazy, I think people's lives are going off the rails.

 

[Checkmate]

By Dean, I assume you guys mean Hank?

 

[Professor Zoom]

By Dean, I assume you guys mean Hank?

Yeah. Why did I start calling him Dean....? But, yes. Hank.

 

[Agent Richard07]

The actor's name is Dean. The character's name is Hank.

 

[Snaploud]

I had to do a double-take to make sure that I wasn't in a Supernatural thread.

 

[stj]

To me the show is about ordinary people who go bad. It's not about badassery. It's about good people, or rather people who thought of themselves as good, who go bad. And in some ways, very very bad.

Oh I agree that's what the series has aspired to, and mostly succeeded at. But wanting to extend the series indefinitely is easier if Walt is made more sympathetic. Giiven the series premise, that would mean more bad ass. One oversight in the theme is that none of the Mexicans African-Americans have been shown to more than TV villains, but also good people gone bad, but still with good parts to their personalities. Not even Gustavo.

I don't understand this. I think she has a TREMENDOUS amount of feelings for Walt, and that's why the betrayal on Walt's part hurt her so much.

It's not like he cheated on her. She hardly turned a hair when she found Ted was embezzling. So why is she so dead against him? I was thinking of the earlier suggestion she just didn't love Walt, or not very much. I don't think that fits what we've seen but it at least makes sense.

I don't know what you mean here. Skylar told Walt. There wasn't any attempt to deceive Walt. Walt said "I did this for my family, for you." So, she went out and did her best to destroy the family, to destroy the relationship between her and Walt.

I was thinking of Skylar playing the happy and dutiful wife, while not really being that deeply attached. I still don't think that was supposed to be the case, nor do I think that Walt is so oblivious he wouldn't on some level be aware: He'd just make excuses about why and how things in the marriage weren't quite right.

She's playing a waiting game.

That's what she told the lawyer. But then she took action instead of waiting. And she took the action practically guaranteed to alienate Walt Jr. from her. Breaking Bad, as sensational as it could get, still had a level of truth to the characterization that could make it compelling. But if Skylar turns into someone we can't believe in, even for an hour, then the whole series will be hurt. She is the third or fourth most important character.

I don't think people are playing crazy, I think people's lives are going off the rails.

Now, I don't understand you. How is that different?

PS I think I was the one who started thinking Dean Norris instead of Hank Schrader. Sorry for the mind fart.

 

[Professor Zoom]

I don't think people are playing crazy, I think people's lives are going off the rails.

Now, I don't understand you. How is that different?

To me crazy is an internal thing. Whereas I think what is happening to the characters is that their lives are going off the path they thought it would, in dramatic and unexpected ways. There is no reacting normally to it, it's reaching out, grabbing on to things that might not make sense to an outside person.

PS I think I was the one who started thinking Dean Norris instead of Hank Schrader. Sorry for the mind fart.

And I ran with it...

 

[sidious618]

Tonight's last ten minutes really spun things around, huh? I can't wait to see where all of this goes.

 

[Roshi]

Jesse is in trouble!

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Love it! Walt vs. Jesse as rival drug lords!

This show writes even minor characters very smartly. The lady lawyer laid it on the line for Skylar at long last but poor Skylar can't bring herself to break Walt Jr.'s heart, even if that means sinking herself and him with her.

The chicken guy is absolutely nefarious - he homed right in on Walt's weakness, his need to see himself as the big, competent male. That's the common thread behind his badass fantasies and his insistence on providing for his family. His personal sense of male-ness seems to be perpetually on the line, and that's what keeps driving him to do very unwise things.

As for Jesse, he's raging at being kicked around by life. Walt better not underestimate him - he's like an out of control Tasmanian Devil now. But of course Walt will underestimate him, because to Walt, Jesse will always be that slacker kid at the back of the class.

If she's so hipped on respectability, sabotaging respectability herself doesn't quite follow.

She's not being rational. She has an image of the respectable family, and Walt has destroyed it. Now she's deep into both covering up for Walt and acting out at Walt via the affair. She's a bundle of contradictions, but that's what people are.

Even more to the point, in practice there's nothing quite so respectable as money

Well to some people, but I don't think she thinks that way. However, she's clearly being tempted by filthy lucre.

I think she has a TREMENDOUS amount of feelings for Walt, and that's why the betrayal on Walt's part hurt her so much.

Yeah she really does still love Walt. That, and not daring to hurt Walt Jr., is why she can't do the smart thing and rat Walt out to the cops.

She said it to the lawyer, she hopes Walt dies soon and then all of the bad things can just never been spoken of again.

I don't think she really means that. I think she wants someone or something else to make a decision for her, because she can't stand any of the choices offered to her, and she can't stand to do nothing, either. Walt dying would resolve the situation. Walt leaving her because of her affair would resolve the situation. Skylar's a coward who above all doesn't want to be blamed for anything.

 

[Joeman]

I think Hank is actually in a better place now. He needs to stay where he is.

Just curious if you still see Hank that way. He seems to be tip-toeing ever further into the deep end to me.

I think Jesse has officially become downright unlikeable to me. I'd always been able to find a little bit of something salvageable in him, but not so much anymore.

Next week looks intense (even though they all are).

 

[stj]

Walt is projecting his negative feelings for Walt Jr. into his relationship for Jesse, partly impelled by his crazy idea that his meth "formula" (which by the way a real chemist would almost certainly call a process) is somehow a career in chemistry, complete with patent rights . While he's being Bad Dad who thinks he's the bull, Gustavo is milking the sacrificial cow Walt really is.

Gustavo's manipulation of Walt's ego is mostly in the script, since he's not a mindreader. Also, Walt's big decision is pretty much a repeat of the first season story, done weaker, and made mostly to undo his decision to quit because there wouldn't be a series like before without it.

The thing is, Walt and Jesse, Walt and Gustavo, Jesse and Hank are starting to cohere as a storyline. At last!

Skylar is just a shrieking prop. People aren't a bundle of contradictions in the Skylar sense where they contradict themselves repeatedly in ten minutes and nothing makes sense. Real people's contradictions are rather more subtle. But it is very typical of even the better TV to write women in such a cartoonish way.