Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek...

[blockaderunner]

Re: Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek..

exodus said:
Behr & Braga made women equals.

No, they perpetuated the phalocentric perception of women by portraying them as stiff, emotionless, eye candy manequins, humorless ice queen schoolmarms, or kick-butt post-Whedon Mary Sues. You want to see women portrayed as flawed, well rounded, characters? Tune into DS9.

 

[Holytomato]

Re: Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek..

""Ira Steven Behr and Ronald D. Moore were the writers most involved with the creation and development of the Dominion War. Rick Berman wanted the war to be over within three or four episodes at the most. Behr and Moore knew the series would never be able to wrap up the war in that many episodes. Berman would also criticize the "depressing" and "violent" stories. Moore would later say "It's a fuckin' war! What do you mean it's too violent?!""

No wonder TNG's Klingon Civil War was only 2 episodes. It S U C K E D.

"You want to see women portrayed as flawed, well rounded, characters? Tune into DS9."

Kira is now Captain of DS9 in the Relaunch. Yay!

Oh wait...Doing this was wrong! The Captain must be a man!

Oh wait...Janeway was great! If you don't like her you are sexist!

I don't like her because the character was written as a Christian Taliban stereotype of feminists.

 

[exodus]

Re: Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek..

Holytomato said:
""Ira Steven Behr and Ronald D. Moore were the writers most involved with the creation and development of the Dominion War. Rick Berman wanted the war to be over within three or four episodes at the most. Behr and Moore knew the series would never be able to wrap up the war in that many episodes. Berman would also criticize the "depressing" and "violent" stories. Moore would later say "It's a fuckin' war! What do you mean it's too violent?!""

No wonder TNG's Klingon Civil War was only 2 episodes. It S U C K E D.

Berman worked side by side with Roddenberry. Berman learned from him just what he wanted the future of Trek too be. Roddenberry didn't want Trek to be about war or violence, Trek was to meant to teach peace & understanding. The Federation/Starfleet are non-violent for that reason.

Berman allowed DS9 to stray from that path just to satisfy those fans that did want war & conflict. That story is over and Trek returned to it's peaceful roots as Roddenberry wanted it.

Berman didn't get Trek wrong, we did because we want Trek to be something is wasn't meant to. Isn't there enough war in the news, do we really have to see more of it in fiction too?

 

[misskim86]

Re: Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek..

If there was no conflict absolutely no one would watch Trek.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek..

blockaderunner said:

exodus said:
Behr & Braga made women equals.

No, they perpetuated the phalocentric perception of women by portraying them as stiff, emotionless, eye candy manequins, humorless ice queen schoolmarms, or kick-butt post-Whedon Mary Sues. You want to see women portrayed as flawed, well rounded, characters? Tune into DS9.

The only woman like that on DS9 you describe is Kira, and she was pretty much a Mary-Sue in all the fight scenes.

 

[Thrall]

Re: Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek..

I would agree if both Seven of Nine & T'Pol weren't also smarter and more self confident that many of the their male counter parts. Seven & T'Pol were more than just great bodies, they were smart formidable women. Not seeing a woman beyond her physical form is also sexest.

That's great and all, but those characters were created for the sole purpose to give teenage boys erections. Nothing more, nothing less. Jeri Ryan even admits it. Whatever character development the characters had were due to the talented actresses that were playing them.

Unlike Roddenberry, Braga didn't create women characters that were subservant to their men. Uhura, Chapel, Rand, Crusher & Troi all were in career positions that were "care giver" roles, roles that made then answer to men. Janeway, Be'lanna, Seven & T'Pol were women of power and in commanded positions. Janeway, Seven & Be'lanna answered to no man, weren't going to and didn't need too. Much of the advice T'Pol gave Archer were the building blocks to what now call the Prime Directive. She also possesed stronger morals than her captain too. Roddenberry loved woman and sex just as long as the women were docile to their men as sex objects and not as complete equals.

Roddenberrys women in Trek were nothing but puppets, Behr & Braga made women equals.

Bull. Shit. Chapel was going to be the First Officer but the network made him change it because having a female first officer would have been too "upsetting to viewers" because having an Asian, a Russian, and African woman was as far as they were willing to let him go.

 

[cultcross]

Re: Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek..

exodus said:
Berman worked side by side with Roddenberry. Berman learned from him just what he wanted the future of Trek too be.

Even if this is the case, and to me it smacks of a real-life version of ret-conning, why is what Roddenberry in his later years wanted automatically what's best for the franchise or where it should go? TNG season 1 was pretty much what Roddenberry by this point wanted the franchise to be, do you honestly think that was sustainable long term?

Roddenberry didn't want Trek to be about war or violence, Trek was to meant to teach peace & understanding. The Federation/Starfleet are non-violent for that reason.

Berman allowed DS9 to stray from that path just to satisfy those fans that did want war & conflict. That story is over and Trek returned to it's peaceful roots as Roddenberry wanted it.

...or, to satisfy those fans who wanted to see how the perfect paradise that was the Federation of TNG was maintained and how such a future doesn't just appear magically one day and stay forever, it takes a lot of effort, and sometimes it has to be fought for. And we saw this, against the backdrop of trying to create the 24th century society for a world that had seen nothing but conflict for years. Of all the series, I think DS9 is most about bringing and maintaining peace and free existence, sometimes at tremondous cost. None of the easy 'our morality is inherently right, we have to imprint it on this incorrect character/race' of TNG.

Berman didn't get Trek wrong, we did because we want Trek to be something is wasn't meant to. Isn't there enough war in the news, do we really have to see more of it in fiction too?

We want Trek to be original, interesting, and tell adult and nuanced stories with modern day relevance? horrors, we've really missed the point!

 

[exodus]

Re: Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek..

This was meant for Thrall

^^So what were Roddenberry's excuses when he got a second chance with TNG? Not even a female guess star character was anything more than eye candy for men.

Face it, the "space babe" has always been a part of sci-fi. From Barbarella too Six on nuBSG. Why do you think they pushed Segorney Weaver's boobs up so high, she had to push them down too see in "Galaxy Quest"?



Character development is done by the writers. The actors just play the parts, they don't write the words they say.

 

[exodus]

Re: Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek..

cultcross said:

exodus said:
Berman worked side by side with Roddenberry. Berman learned from him just what he wanted the future of Trek too be.

Even if this is the case, and to me it smacks of a real-life version of ret-conning, why is what Roddenberry in his later years wanted automatically what's best for the franchise or where it should go? TNG season 1 was pretty much what Roddenberry by this point wanted the franchise to be, do you honestly think that was sustainable long term?

Roddenberry didn't want Trek to be about war or violence, Trek was to meant to teach peace & understanding. The Federation/Starfleet are non-violent for that reason.

Berman allowed DS9 to stray from that path just to satisfy those fans that did want war & conflict. That story is over and Trek returned to it's peaceful roots as Roddenberry wanted it.

...or, to satisfy those fans who wanted to see how the perfect paradise that was the Federation of TNG was maintained and how such a future doesn't just appear magically one day and stay forever, it takes a lot of effort, and sometimes it has to be fought for. And we saw this, against the backdrop of trying to create the 24th century society for a world that had seen nothing but conflict for years. Of all the series, I think DS9 is most about bringing and maintaining peace and free existence, sometimes at tremondous cost. None of the easy 'our morality is inherently right, we have to imprint it on this incorrect character/race' of TNG.

Berman didn't get Trek wrong, we did because we want Trek to be something is wasn't meant to. Isn't there enough war in the news, do we really have to see more of it in fiction too?

We want Trek to be original, interesting, and tell adult and nuanced stories with modern day relevance? horrors, we've really missed the point!

But you're talking about you wanna see "effort maintained".

What type of effort maintained in keeping the peace from ships built for scientific exploration did you expect to see?

The Enterprise is an Ambassadorial ship, it's the flapship of the Federation. Only the best in all Starfleet serve onboard it. That's why something like Data is there. Starfleet went to Bajor to ensure the peace was kept between Cardassia & Bajor. They didn't go to DS9 to start a war. Voyager didn't go thru the Delta Quaderent looking for a fight. they were trying to make allies any way they could, even with the Borg!

 

[Holytomato]

Re: Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek..

So, war as a long time story arc is bad. Check.

Does that mean ENT shouldn't have done the Earth/Romulan War?

 

[Thrall]

Re: Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek..

^^So what were Roddenberry's excuses when he got a second chance with TNG? Not even a female guess star character was anything more than eye candy for men.

TOS Roddenberry and TNG Roddenberry were two different people. By that point he had become such a secular humanist pacifist that he wanted to undo alot of things he had done in TOS which he now found offensive. Like having a captain who talked about his feelings more rather resorting to fisticuffs. Or showing that not all Klingons are evil. He wanted Picard to refute Kirk and Worf to refute Kor. Granted it's not how he originally wanted it but that's how it ended up being. But he also knew that TOS fans had come to expect at least a certain formula and that having a dominate female personality might be upsetting to long time fans. And lets be honest here, most of the characters on TNG were pretty touchy-feely, except for Riker and Worf. It wasn't just the women. TOS Roddenberry would've loved DS9 btw.

Face it, the "space babe" has always been a part of sci-fi. From Barbarella too Six on nuBSG. Why do you think they pushed Segorney Weaver's boobs up so high, she had to push them down too see in "Galaxy Quest"?

Good point.

Character development is done by the writers. The actors just play the parts, they don't write the words they say.

Fair enough. But Seven would have been a terrible character if anyone else was playing her. Jeri Ryan was able to add depth to a very one-note character that, in adding any pretense of depth, would have come off as insulting and pretencious.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek..

It was more a combo of Ryan's acting skills and Braga trying to salvage as much of his original idea for the Borg crew member as possible. Saying she's just a one-note sex object is being shallow on your part.

 

[RandyS]

Re: Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek..

exodus said:
Well allow me to ask this: Why are Trek fans so afraid of sexuality?

Simple, it goes against our stereotypical image as being virigns.

 

[number6]

Re: Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek..

^heheh no doubt. I find most of the comments about sexuality and how it "needs" to be portrayed in Star Trek to be highly entertaining. Kinda like how hardcore religious fanatics insist on how rock music should be played

 

[Noname Given]

Re: Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek..

number6 said:
^heheh no doubt. I find most of the comments about sexuality and how it "needs" to be portrayed in Star Trek to be highly entertaining. Kinda like how hardcore religious fanatics insist on how rock music should be played

I don't see anyone sayings sexuality 'needs' to be a part of Star Trek per se; but that said, there's no reason to shy away from it either. TOS definitly DID vot shy away from it; and as for later Star Trek series - I always find it interesting that 7 of 9 and T'Pol get mentioned, yet Troi's Purple Cat Suit (with camel-toe often included) gets a free pass. Is that because this was a cat Suit done under GR's watch, or do some fans just have selective memory?

 

[blakbyrd]

Re: Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek..

Noname Given said:

number6 said:
^heheh no doubt. I find most of the comments about sexuality and how it "needs" to be portrayed in Star Trek to be highly entertaining. Kinda like how hardcore religious fanatics insist on how rock music should be played

I don't see anyone sayings sexuality 'needs' to be a part of Star Trek per se; but that said, there's no reason to shy away from it either. TOS definitly DID vot shy away from it; and as for later Star Trek series - I always find it interesting that 7 of 9 and T'Pol get mentioned, yet Troi's Purple Cat Suit (with camel-toe often included) gets a free pass. Is that because this was a cat Suit done under GR's watch, or do some fans just have selective memory?

Agreed.

 

[Thrall]

Re: Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek..

Anwar said:
It was more a combo of Ryan's acting skills and Braga trying to salvage as much of his original idea for the Borg crew member as possible. Saying she's just a one-note sex object is being shallow on your part.

Is it really though?

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/7x19/q2_059.jpg

 

[Apogeal Alpha01]

Re: Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek..

Noname Given said:

number6 said:
^heheh no doubt. I find most of the comments about sexuality and how it "needs" to be portrayed in Star Trek to be highly entertaining. Kinda like how hardcore religious fanatics insist on how rock music should be played

I don't see anyone sayings sexuality 'needs' to be a part of Star Trek per se; but that said, there's no reason to shy away from it either. TOS definitly DID vot shy away from it; and as for later Star Trek series - I always find it interesting that 7 of 9 and T'Pol get mentioned, yet Troi's Purple Cat Suit (with camel-toe often included) gets a free pass. Is that because this was a cat Suit done under GR's watch, or do some fans just have selective memory?

Troi's suit was modest in its cut by comparison to 7 or Major Kira as well, imo, primarily because she wore sensible shoes. Why would a Borg dress in a SKIN TIGHT catsuit, and wear high heel shoes? Ever notice that strippers, though naked or barely dressed wear pumps? Normal people wear no shoes.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek..

Thrall said:

Anwar said:
It was more a combo of Ryan's acting skills and Braga trying to salvage as much of his original idea for the Borg crew member as possible. Saying she's just a one-note sex object is being shallow on your part.

Is it really though?

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/7x19/q2_059.jpg

Well duh, she was at the whim of a teenage boy with superpowers in that ep!

 

[galleywest]

Re: Brannon Braga found that taking the heat for Star Trek..

At the risk of addressing the original subject of this thread...

You know, I don't like what Braga did with Enterprise. And I hated, hated how he ended it. But he seems to be admitting that he made mistakes, and, having seen him speak in a non-Trek venue, he doesn't seem like the spawn of the devil... What I'm trying to say is that I've made my peace with Braga's faults and mistakes with the show. I'm glad he's admitted the problems with ENT and Trek's demise, and that he seems aware that he had something to do with those problems.