Theres the question of just how much control a founder has over their cells. If the standard founder has conscious control of every cell, then they could actually fight the nano probes, probe by probe and prevent the infection.
Borg changeling
- Thread starter RainCrystal
- Start date
An alternate speculation--could a changeling actually assimilate the Borg by morphing into a Borg Queen?
...Unless the Changeling cells are independently capable of responding to threats and other stimuli, and would each negate the particular attack aimed at them.
And nanoprobes may have difficulty penetrating into a Changeling because of the aforementioned lack of blood. They could plausibly rush through veins and arteries at several centimeters per second, but trying to proceed through cellular goo might reduce that speed to millimeters per hour. After all, nanomachines don't have particularly long legs...
So probably 99% of the Changeling bulk would be available for sustaining the life processes while 1% deals with the nanoprobe attack. Possibly an even more advantageous ratio than with regular humanoids!
Timo Saloniemi
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
The nanoprobes are still mechanical machines and can thus be crushed when a changeling turns into a rock. The Borg can only adapt through assimilation as we've been told numerous times especially on Voyager, that is why the Borg could not adapt to species 8472 because they can only adapt through assimilation and they couldnt assimilate one, until the Borg succeed in assimilating a changeling or assimilating someone with full knowledge of changeling physiology then the Borg cannot adapt their nanoprobes to assimilate a changeling.
The virus given to the changelings by section 31 is completely different since the virus is biological and not mechanical and the virus was specifically engineered for the founders, the Borg do not have the ability to engineer nanoprobes sepcifically for the founders since they could never gain knowledge on changeling physiology unless they assimilated Julian Bashir.
The virus given to the changelings by section 31 is completely different since the virus is biological and not mechanical and the virus was specifically engineered for the founders, the Borg do not have the ability to engineer nanoprobes sepcifically for the founders since they could never gain knowledge on changeling physiology unless they assimilated Julian Bashir.
While it would be a close fight. I doubt very much that the Jem Hadar would slaughter the Borg. The Borg are an unending force that never stop. If one cube can decimate the entire Federation Fleet (Wolf 359 and First Contact) something the Dominion couldnt do then how do you think the Dominion would fair? I would be alot more interested in the prospect of a Jem Hedar assimilated Drone rather than the prospect of a Changeling being assimilated.
Or, for sheer amusement Weyoun being assimilated and turned into the new Voice of the Borg. Hahaha!
Or, for sheer amusement Weyoun being assimilated and turned into the new Voice of the Borg. Hahaha!
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
Changelings have never been shown as fire, dont know why you thought that. As for cells all I can remember is Bashir saying something along the lines of a changeling has some form of crystaline structure.
Laas turned into fire in "Chimera". He also became fog (which threated the Klingons
)If the changeling stayed as human the Borg nano probes would probably work. However if they changed to fire, fog or something similar the probes would probably be destroyed or fall to the ground (which would be a neat visual).
Even the Section 31 virus took a long time for its effects to be shown. Plus even nearly at his death bed Odo could still shapeshift. Now if the Borg could neutralize their shapeshifting (the way Garak did with that device) it would be a different story.
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
Damask said:
Laas turned into fire in "Chimera". He also became fog (which threated the Klingons
Welp I dont remember that happening but I believe you, i'm pretty gobsmacked they showed a changeling as fire, for countless reasons that just seems a little stupid, for starters for fire you need to be able to burn something and then that turns to CO2 in the process, so it just seems bonkers for a changeling to be able to do that without having to burn a part of itself, and dont get me started on fog!!
Well, well, well...
I just had to have a stab at this one...
I dealt with this very issue, with a tweak, in my fanfic, "Star Trek: Entomalians". In that story, the Borg betray the Dominion in their fragile alliance, so in return, the Female Shapeshifter kills the Borg Queen, and replaces her, by shapeshifting into an exact duplicate of her... down to the most minute of details.
Now, some of my readers had a problem with the Female Founder's ability to do that. I did not, and here is why...
In DS9, it was made very clear that the Female Shapeshifter is among (if not THE) the very best and most skilled changelings... she can literally become ANYTHING, and nobody would know it was her. Indeed, she even encouraged Odo to keep practicing his morphing, stating that in order to really "be" an object, you must "know" what it is to be that object, or something to that effect.
Additionally, Odo, while he is not the most skilled changeling, is somehow able to shapeshift a fully-functional and detectable (by sensors) Bajoran communicator... that would indicate that the Founders CAN generate working electrical devices, even those with subspace trancievers and delicate equipment.
All this points to the fact that the most skilled Founders can literally become anything known to them. That was my basis for enabling the Female Shapeshifter to emulate the Borg Queen. So, in that regard, it might be possible to have a Borg Changeling.
I just had to have a stab at this one...
I dealt with this very issue, with a tweak, in my fanfic, "Star Trek: Entomalians". In that story, the Borg betray the Dominion in their fragile alliance, so in return, the Female Shapeshifter kills the Borg Queen, and replaces her, by shapeshifting into an exact duplicate of her... down to the most minute of details.
Now, some of my readers had a problem with the Female Founder's ability to do that. I did not, and here is why...
In DS9, it was made very clear that the Female Shapeshifter is among (if not THE) the very best and most skilled changelings... she can literally become ANYTHING, and nobody would know it was her. Indeed, she even encouraged Odo to keep practicing his morphing, stating that in order to really "be" an object, you must "know" what it is to be that object, or something to that effect.
Additionally, Odo, while he is not the most skilled changeling, is somehow able to shapeshift a fully-functional and detectable (by sensors) Bajoran communicator... that would indicate that the Founders CAN generate working electrical devices, even those with subspace trancievers and delicate equipment.
All this points to the fact that the most skilled Founders can literally become anything known to them. That was my basis for enabling the Female Shapeshifter to emulate the Borg Queen. So, in that regard, it might be possible to have a Borg Changeling.
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
^
I find it highly unlikely that a changeling can replicate advanced pieces of mechanical Borg technology, for example I find it hard to believe that the female shapeshifter could possibly replicate using her own morphic ability a cordical implant which is one of the technologies essential to be able to communicate within the Borg Collective, not to mention all the other technologies required which makes the Borg Queen the ruler of the Borg. Dont forget that a normal Borg Drone is something like 50% biological and 50% mechanical/technolgical and its clear via onscreen evidence that the queen is far more technolgical than a normal drone, also why on earth would a shapeshifter even have a clue how Borg tech even works, so to believe a shapeshifter can possibly become an exact duplicate of the Borg Queen or even slightly close is purposterous.
Does it not seem a little more logical to assume that Odo takes the communicator with him as he morphs, he can store the communicator within his gelatinus form and take it with him, in worst case scenario where he cant take it with him (which hasnt happened during episodes but could have happened off screen between episodes) he can leave it behind and ask for a replacement when he get back to DS9. In pretty much all of onscreen evidence Odo shapeshifts through holes which appear large enough to fit a communicator.
I find it highly unlikely that a changeling can replicate advanced pieces of mechanical Borg technology, for example I find it hard to believe that the female shapeshifter could possibly replicate using her own morphic ability a cordical implant which is one of the technologies essential to be able to communicate within the Borg Collective, not to mention all the other technologies required which makes the Borg Queen the ruler of the Borg. Dont forget that a normal Borg Drone is something like 50% biological and 50% mechanical/technolgical and its clear via onscreen evidence that the queen is far more technolgical than a normal drone, also why on earth would a shapeshifter even have a clue how Borg tech even works, so to believe a shapeshifter can possibly become an exact duplicate of the Borg Queen or even slightly close is purposterous.
Does it not seem a little more logical to assume that Odo takes the communicator with him as he morphs, he can store the communicator within his gelatinus form and take it with him, in worst case scenario where he cant take it with him (which hasnt happened during episodes but could have happened off screen between episodes) he can leave it behind and ask for a replacement when he get back to DS9. In pretty much all of onscreen evidence Odo shapeshifts through holes which appear large enough to fit a communicator.
The Female Changeling had remarkable morphing ability... from what we saw, her emulating Odo's look was kind of "dumbing it down" for her. Regarding the cordical implant, I would think as long as the Founders have the information an a given device, they can replicate it themselves... I would not be surprised if a Founder were able to emulate a Bynar... another species which uses neural implants for communication.
DS9 always showed Odo morphing with his communicator on... he never took it off... it was a "part" of him. That implies that the Founders can replicate devices which emit subspace frequencies and fields, and have them work properly.
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
Even if they were somehow able to replicate an advanced piece of technology down to every wire and mechanism how exactly are they going to replicate a power source for it?
Just because Odo morphed with his com badge on doesnt mean it was part of him in any way, it would be exactly the same as when the founders STORED humanoid blood inside them so when they were tested they released the blood, the same can be true for Odo and his com badge which is remarkably small and thin. Infact I think theres an episode where his com badge is taken off him.
^
Normally, your point would be valid, but every time we saw Odo turn into the gelatinous state, ALL of him turned to goo... if he were merely storing the communicator, it would have been left behind.
Normally, your point would be valid, but every time we saw Odo turn into the gelatinous state, ALL of him turned to goo... if he were merely storing the communicator, it would have been left behind.
One time Odo turned himself into a drinking glass made out of clear glass. Someone, maybe even Quark drank a beverage out of Odo as a clear glass. If he wants to hide his communicator I would find it hard to think how he could. Everyone, walk over and pick up a clear glass drinking glass and ask yourself, how would you hide a communicator.
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
He probably shoves it under a table somewhere before he changes. I find it hard to believe that Odo, who has trouble mimicking humanoid facial features such as ears or a bajoran nose can miraculously replicate an advanced piece of technology such as a full blown subspace communication device, if he can replicate a com badge he can sure as hell make some ears.
Actually, I think this is the best argument for Odo having to be able to store things like communicators in his body.
Odo as humanoid has at least 70 kg of mass (see him being dragged in the end of "Vortex"), but Odo as transparent glass has less than 1 kg of mass (see him lifted in the beginning of that same episode). So Odo is able to shove some of his mass, and volume, elsewhere. And since this is Star Trek, I'll just say "elsewhere=subspace".
Clearly, Odo has some sort of a carry-along hole built into his very nature, a place where most of him goes when the rest becomes a glass, a rat, or a handbag. The communicator could no doubt be stored in that hole. After all, when Odo morphs, we never see anything fall off his person, even though he would be expected to carry all sorts of items as part of his work as Chief of Security (keycards, isolinear rods and so forth).
At some level, be it fundamental or extremely superficial, Odo and presumably other Founders have a conventional cellular structure with DNA, that much has been established on screen. At some other level, though, Odo and the other Founders are able to go beyond their physical nature, not only changing shape but also changing the mass, optical qualities, temperature, viscosity etc. of their bodies. If Odo can become a transparent glass, it really is but a short hop to him becoming fire or mist - while his bodily matter probably is patiently waiting in the carry-along hole, allowing his more exotic nature to perform the impressive trickery.
Timo Saloniemi
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
Whenever I saw him change mass from a full blown humanoid to a little glass I always assumed he was able to do it by altering the majority of his mass into an invisible gas that nobody could see or smell, either that or he simply allowed his cells to die off and those cells then burnt up or evaporated into an invisible gas.. when he changed again into a humanoid I always assumed his cells started dividing and copying eachother to increase his mass again.
We saw in that episode where Odo was effected by that gas on a gamma quadrant planet that he left behind residue in the stations jeffries tubes, I always imagined this residue was the remains of those cells that died off as Odo changed his mass.
