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Spoilers Bonus scene from Season One Finale

CoIntelPro was a fucking abomination. What on god's green earth do you imagine it was "effective" at, other than breaking the law? Did it improve national security? Reduce violence? Quell political dissent? Achieve anything remotely constructive whatsoever?
No. Nor was it MEANT to accomplish any of those things. CointelPro was specifically designed to disrupt and disorganize anti-establishment groups and activists whom the government labeled "subversives." Most of their work was geared specifically for this purpose, whatever else they claimed to be up to.

To this end, they were wildly successful. They engineered the collapse of the SNCC and picked apart Martin Luther King's inner circle, exploiting pre-existing political and personal divisions until they simply refused to work together on anything ever again. They were instrumental in undermining the legitimacy of the Black Panther Party and they single handedly engineered the transformation of the Young Lords movement into a glorified street gang, famously recruiting a cadre of career drug dealers to use the Young Lords' soup kitchens as distribution centers and then claim to be LEADERS of the movement when they got caught.

You might as well claim that the Phoenix Program helped us win the Vietnam War.
We DIDN'T win the Vietnam War. But it would be hard to argue that Phoenix wasn't a contributor if we had. That's the scary thing about these kinds of organizations: they always SEEM to work, even if the actual agenda that caused them to exist in the first place is totally unrelated to what they claim to have accomplished.

As another example: what did the U.S. Government gain in the Iran-Contra affair? Overall, not a whole lot. But supporting the contras was never about creating lasting political change in Nicaragua; it was about killing communists in large numbers. It accomplished THAT pretty effectively.

And in Star Trek's reality, importantly, the means-vs-ends question has already been asked and answered.
Yes, as it has been asked and answered in OUR reality multiple times. And yet for some reason it keeps popping up, generation after generation.

Besides, I hold to the theory that 31 is probably going to be used as a proxy for the growing popularity of scapegoat-style xenophobia in western politics. "The Terran Empire is based on the unconditional hatred of anything 'other.'" as Burnham says. Guess who their new recruit used to be?
 
I don't need time wasted for that topic in Star Trek ever again. The DS9 dealt it with a lot, the DIS first season was about that. I'm fucking done with that shit. It is not interesting, it is not thoughtful, and it sure as hell is not inspirational. Enough.

"You cannot explain away a wantonly immoral act because you think it is connected to some higher purpose."
-Jean-Luc Picard

There. That's the answer, now move on.
You may not.

Others still do.
 
No. Nor was it MEANT to accomplish any of those things. CointelPro was specifically designed to disrupt and disorganize anti-establishment groups and activists whom the government labeled "subversives." Most of their work was geared specifically for this purpose, whatever else they claimed to be up to.
IOW, no, it did not accomplish anything remotely constructive. All it was capable of were ends that were just as destructive as its means.

We DIDN'T win the Vietnam War.
Umm, yeah. That was my point.

That's the scary thing about these kinds of organizations: they always SEEM to work...
No, they don't even seem to work. Not unless you're the kind of policy analyst who confuses outputs with outcomes. (E.g., "killing communists in large numbers" versus actually gaining some strategic advantage or improving international stability.)
 
You may not.

Others still do.
Its happening whether some like it or not. :shrug:

I think it has possibilities myself, there will always be dirty jobs and individuals who are willing to do them, their backgrounds and reasons for doing so will of course vary.

In fact I considered the Section 31 plot in DS9 to be one of the most realistic storylines ever shown in any Star Trek series.

You can also add Sisko/Garak and tricking the Romulans into the Dominion War as well now that I think about it.

The reason it evokes such strong reactions and an attempt by some to shut down any mention of it is simply because it hits a bit too close to home.

It is supposed to, that's the whole point. :techman:
 
Its happening whether some like it or not. :shrug:

I think it has possibilities myself, there will always be dirty jobs and individuals who are willing to do them, their backgrounds and reasons for doing so will of course vary.

In fact I considered the Section 31 plot in DS9 to be one of the most realistic storylines ever shown in any Star Trek series.

You can also add Sisko/Garak and tricking the Romulans into the Dominion War as well now that I think about it.

The reason it evokes such strong reactions and an attempt by some to shut down any mention of it is simply because it hits a bit too close to home.

It is supposed to, that's the whole point. :techman:
Hey, we can't have any of that real world commentary garbage in Star Trek!

;)
 
Hey, we can't have any of that real world commentary garbage in Star Trek!

;)
The response by some to a select few storylines is a problem caused by Star Trek itself, I have never seen it as a realistic representation of the human races future, its too clean cut, too antiseptic and gift wrapped with a nice little bow, yet many expect exactly that in every episode and story arc, I was pleasantly surprised when I finally saw evidence of the writers actually taking a few risks.

For me B5s tone and look is far more likely, minus all the alien races of course and the overly mystic ending, don't get me wrong I loved it but by that point the series was away with the fairies, the Marcus & Ivanova stuff was done well though.

For that reason the first few seasons were pretty much spot on.

I am still waiting for someone to be seen doing a number 2 in an actual crapper when called to the bridge, they must be regular as clockwork for it not to happen. Just once I would like to see someone enter the bridge with an unusual spring in their step due to being a few pounds lighter than they were earlier. :biggrin:

Will stop here as its starting to go a bit off topic.
 
The response by some to a select few storylines is a problem caused by Star Trek itself, I have never seen it as a realistic representation of the human races future, its too clean cut, too antiseptic and gift wrapped with a nice little bow, yet many expect exactly that in every episode and story arc, I was pleasantly surprised when I finally saw evidence of the writers actually taking a few risks.
Yeah. Some of us actually like Star Trek's optimistic take on the future and find it inspiring.
 
For me B5s tone and look is far more likely...
I completely agree that B5's handling of political intrigue was head and shoulders above anything Trek has ever done on that front... particularly the core storyline about the resistance and rebellion against the Earth Alliance, but also the whole Narn/Centauri dynamic, and other aspects as well.

If I thought there was a chance in hell that the writers of DSC had it in them to pull off something on that level, using Section 31 or any other narrative device at their disposal, I'd be completely behind it. But they don't, and I'm not.
 
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Yeah. Some of us actually like Star Trek's optimistic take on the future and find it inspiring.
I know and I like it too, but it isn't the be all end all to me.

Humanity will find its own path one way or the other, there is no need for any scifi show to act as a baseline to the future, it doesn't work like that anyway and is doomed to fail.

That isn't what Star Trek is, perhaps Gene hoped it would be but there will always be those who hope/plan/plot for something different.
 
I completely agree that B5's handling of political intrigue was head and shoulders above anything Trek has ever done... particularly the core storyline about the resistance and rebellion against the Earth Alliance, but also the whole Narn/Centauri dynamic and other aspects as well.

If I thought there was a chance in hell that the writers of DSC had it in them to pull off something on that level, using Section 31 or any other narrative device at their disposal, I'd be completely behind it. But they don't, and I'm not.
I will keep my options open myself, the inclusion of Section 31 indicates we could be getting something along those lines.

I loved the Narn & Centauri as well, two races that really don't like each other and have absolutely nothing in common, no amount of camp fire singing, hand holding or team building activities is going to change that, yet a common foe can at least give them something else to shoot at besides each other and that's the best that can be hoped for.

Both factions are completely different in almost every way and that's ok.

Which is pretty much the history of the human race in a nutshell really.
 
Honestly, Lorca had to be in bed with Section 31, otherwise it makes no sense how he could have command of Starfleet's most important wartime asset. This is the guy who admitted to murdering his previous crew of his previous command. Someone like that should not be given another command, period, let alone command of the most important asset in the fleet. Though, I should think even Section 31 had to work overtime greasing poles to get Lorca command of Discovery...

It makes perfect sense Lorca would be in command of Discovery. One; he "admitted" to killing his crew as a power move to out-psycho a con-artist in a Klingon jail, who didn't already know that, suggesting it wasn't Lorca's official story. So, Lorca escapes with his life (I don't know, maybe his first officer slugged him and threw him into the escape pod after he set the self-destruct. I'm sure they had the movie "Armageddon" in the Mirror Universe, Lorca could think of a plausible story that made him sound heroic or noble or whatever us soft-hearted prime-universe types like to hear), and that's that.

As for how he gets Discovery, it was probably his idea to fit a ship out with a Spore Drive in the first place. Remember, he was in deep with Mirror-Stamets, so he already knew all about the Mycelial Network. Moreover, it's a trick we've seen him use on-screen. "Discover" some information he already knew, and look like a damn genius for applying it in a way he also already knew about. It worked with getting Burnham to go on a wild goose chase for information on the Defiant, how hard could it be to convince Starfleet Command that he, their only captain who apparently became an expert in fringe mushroom teleportation science in his spare time without telling anyone, should be the lead on this crazy-ass harebrained project.

Discovery wasn't an important wartime asset until they "recruited" Ripper. Until then, it was just another Starfleet hold-my-beer longshot scientific boondoggle waiting to happen that no one expected to work (it sounds a little different when you look at as "Lorca lost his previous ship, and then Starfleet gave him command of the backup duplicate of the ship that twisted its crew into pretzels"). And what happened the first thing after they got the Spore Drive working? They called Lorca back to a Starbase, and Cornwell started sniffing around about his psychological competence.

No. Nor was it MEANT to accomplish any of those things. CointelPro was specifically designed to disrupt and disorganize anti-establishment groups and activists whom the government labeled "subversives." Most of their work was geared specifically for this purpose, whatever else they claimed to be up to.

To this end, they were wildly successful. They engineered the collapse of the SNCC and picked apart Martin Luther King's inner circle, exploiting pre-existing political and personal divisions until they simply refused to work together on anything ever again. They were instrumental in undermining the legitimacy of the Black Panther Party and they single handedly engineered the transformation of the Young Lords movement into a glorified street gang, famously recruiting a cadre of career drug dealers to use the Young Lords' soup kitchens as distribution centers and then claim to be LEADERS of the movement when they got caught.

I'm remembering that SMBC comic about how "I'm not saying he was good, just that he was good at what he chose to do."
 
IOW, no, it did not accomplish anything remotely constructive. All it was capable of were ends that were just as destructive as its means.
There is a well known and popular school of political thought that maintains that you can solve all of the world's problems just by destroying the things/people who caused them. To such people, destruction is indirectly a constructive pursuit.

Section 31 shares this philosophy. The U.S. Government has always had a rather dubious infatuation with this theory as well.

No, they don't even seem to work.
Of course they do. The geniuses behind CountelPro believed that radical leftism in civil rights and pan-africanist movements would lead to growing communist influence in the black community, so they did everything hey could do destroy those movements. Communist thinkers continued to lack influence among the black community, so yes, it SEEMED to work.

Hell, there are still people who say that the Vietnam War is to thank for stopping the spread of communism through indochina. It's kind of bullshit, because the Domino Theory doesn't have a lot of factual support, but it SEEMS like it might have happened if we hadn't fought and lost the war.

That's why it's so hard to argue against people like Section 31. Consider this: if they had blown up Kronos like Georgiou planned, the war definitely would have ended. But it turns out blowing up the planet wasn't necessary, THREATENING to do it would have still ended the war. 31 would have still taken credit for that genocidal act and patted themselves on the back for having the courage to protect the Federation at any cost; it would SEEM to have worked.
 
There is a well known and popular school of political thought that maintains that you can solve all of the world's problems just by destroying the things/people who caused them.
Unless you're offering that description as an almost unrecognizably simplistic summary of the "realism" theory of international relations, no, there is no such school of thought. I study politics and policy for a living. I would have noticed.

(Seriously, what and who are you talking about here? Name a scholar or political figure who advocates this.)

Of course they do. ... Hell, there are still people who say that the Vietnam War is to thank for stopping the spread of communism through indochina. It's kind of bullshit, because the Domino Theory doesn't have a lot of factual support...
Okay, I'll go along this far... such things seem to work to people who are predisposed to believe bullshit.

(I already allowed for people who confuse outputs with outcomes. The two categories have a lot of overlap in their Venn diagram.)

That's why it's so hard to argue against people like Section 31. Consider this: if they had blown up Kronos like Georgiou planned, the war definitely would have ended.
I submit that it would not. There were plenty of Klingons not on the home planet (like, say, every one of them deployed on a starship, including the fleet threatening Earth), and if Qo'nos were destroyed, I rather suspect they would have taken immediate and brutal revenge. Whenever and however the war ended after that, Earth would have been devastated. That is hardly a desirable outcome, and is in fact a very easy one to argue against.

The point remains: you proposed that Section 31 could be used for a storyline dramatizing the difficulty of making choices involving effective but unethical means to achieve worthy ends. In response to every real-world analogy to S31 that's been offered, however, you agree (or even point out!) that the only things they've actually been "effective" at achieving have all been destructive. Since we can take it as given that the Federation (like all reasonable people even today) considers worthy ends to be the kind that actually improve net quality of life for humanity (and other sapient beings), and the results of operations like S31 consistently do not do that unless viewed through a very bullshit-colored lens, it stands to reason that S31 could not in fact be used to dramatize that theme, at least not without making a hopeless hash out of it.

(Hell, DSC has already made a hash out of that theme the first time they tried it. The notion that Cornwell, Sarek, or the Federation Council would ever countenance potential genocide as a military strategy basically amounted to character assassination of all of the above. I maintain that the season-ending storyline would have been at least a little better if they'd stuck with the earlier vision of it that involved Lorca remaining in command through to the end of the war (rather than doing the heel turn), if only because he (unlike MUGeorgiou) was someone who had established some level of trust with the other characters involved. She hadn't, at all, and the notion that anyone would give her command of a strategically critical starship rather than throwing her in a very secure cell still makes not a lick of sense. Basically, the writers painted themselves into a corner with the war and got out of it with a complete asspull of a plot device that was only superficially, but not actually, consistent with the idealistic Starfleet principles that Burnham gave that tedious speech about at the end.)
 
Discovery wasn't an important wartime asset until they "recruited" Ripper. Until then, it was just another Starfleet hold-my-beer longshot scientific boondoggle waiting to happen that no one expected to work (it sounds a little different when you look at as "Lorca lost his previous ship, and then Starfleet gave him command of the backup duplicate of the ship that twisted its crew into pretzels"). And what happened the first thing after they got the Spore Drive working? They called Lorca back to a Starbase, and Cornwell started sniffing around about his psychological competence.
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The notion that Section 31 has any say whatsoever in who gets the captaincy of important Starfleet ships is not compatible with my interpretation of how Starfleet works.

Wasn't the head of Starfleet himself in S31 (STiD)? If something similar is happening during DISC, it seems to me that's a sure fire way of deciding who gets to command what.
 
Let's hope that nobody involved with DSC (Kurtzman's status notwithstanding) ever thinks that STID is a good source to look to for storytelling ideas.
 
Unless you're offering that description as an almost unrecognizably simplistic summary of the "realism" theory of international relations, no, there is no such school of thought. I study politics and policy for a living. I would have noticed.
In essence, "conservativism."

Simply remove power (or existence) from undesirable things, and solutions will emerge by default.

The point remains: you proposed that Section 31 could be used for a storyline dramatizing the difficulty of making choices involving effective but unethical means to achieve worthy ends. In response to every real-world analogy to S31 that's been offered, however, you agree (or even point out!) that the only things they've actually been "effective" at achieving have all been destructive.
Yes, and I'm saying the reason entities like Section 31 and similar agencies continue to be created time after time is because it is a popular notion that the best way to eliminate trouble is to eliminate the people who caused it in the first place. When you take that simple concept as an axiom, elimination of troublemakers ALWAYS seems to be a productive end.

You have probably worked for such a person at least once in your life; they tend to be problem-oriented individuals who are far more concerned with assigning blame for blame's sake than coming up with a solution to whatever the actual problem is.

Since we can take it as given that the Federation (like all reasonable people even today) considers worthy ends to be the kind that actually improve net quality of life for humanity (and other sapient beings), and the results of operations like S31 consistently do not do that unless viewed through a very bullshit-colored lens, it stands to reason that S31 could not in fact be used to dramatize that theme, at least not without making a hopeless hash out of it.
That's just it, right-wing conservatives have always managed to coexist with their more constructive neighbors for long periods of time even if the two of them are completely at cross purposes for their overall goals. The scary thing is that rightists have a tendency to co-opt the more constructive efforts of the general population in order to gain power for themselves. Nazi Germany is a really good example of this; even the more forward-thinking constructive Germans who weren't themselves totally keen on Nazi ideology still TOLERATED it as long as the pogroms and oppression were directed at a convenient scapegoat. The same thing happened in France during the revolution, where the thought of preserving the political and bureaucratic knowledge of the monarchs and their servants was suddenly less important than the lower classes satisfying their need for revenge and, again, the imperative to eliminate the people they saw as causing the trouble in the first place.

More recently, the United States made a similarly colossal blunder in the invasion of Iraq, sweeping the entire Ba'ath party completely out of power with no regard to whether or not INDIVIDUAL members had actually been involved in the repression of the Sunni minority. Some of the baathists were assassinated or arrested, others were thrown out on their ass and banned from public office, but the predictable result was that anyone in the country who actually knew how to run things was suddenly out of a job and were being replaced by sychophants and suck-ups who were valued more for their obedience than for having any actual skills. And here again, the general population of the United States and even those in its military who should have known better went along with it because, really, it wasn't their problem.

Section 31 exists in that blind spot in human psychology where someone can do terribly destructive things for a long period of time and nobody does anything about it as long they're doing it to someone else. If Section 31 were to turn its backstabby clandestine activities on Federation citizens, or worse, on dissident factions within Starfleet (as Admiral Marcus did in STID, or better yet, Admiral Leyton in "Paradise Lost") then their camouflage of supposedly good intentions falls away.

The point is, there are still many people who judge Section 31 based not on what they do, but on who they are doing it to and why they claim to do it. The current state of the world being what it is, it's possible we are due for a reminder than an evil action remains an evil action regardless of the intended victim.

The notion that Cornwell, Sarek, or the Federation Council would ever countenance potential genocide as a military strategy basically amounted to character assassination of all of the above.
The fact that Abraham Lincoln personally approved the use of Total War (and Sherman's March, for that matter) doesn't sit well with a lot of people, nor does Eisenhower ordering the use of the atomic bomb. Speaking of otherwise good people who might have needed a reminder...

Basically, the writers painted themselves into a corner with the war and got out of it with a complete asspull of a plot device that was only superficially, but not actually, consistent with the idealistic Starfleet principles that Burnham gave that tedious speech about at the end.)
Well, yeah, the bomb plot was a complete asspull and they totally fumbled the execution of it. They SHOULD have just detonated it anyway (though with the effects being less than predicted) and had Starfleet try to wrestle with the moral consequences of it in the following seasons while the Klingons struggled to contain the scope of the disaster (and Burnham grappling with the fact that Starfleet is now giving her a medal and a pardon for doing the wrong thing, wiping out the prison sentence she got for trying to do the right thing). They might still go that route, but I kind of doubt it.
 
In essence, "conservativism."
Ah. Okay, I see what you were driving at.

Notwithstanding my wide-ranging and deep-seated lack of respect for modern political conservatism and the things it says and does, I wouldn't describe it quite as derisively as you did. It does have some at least superficially coherent tenets that go beyond destroying things and killing people.

You have probably worked for such a person at least once in your life; they tend to be problem-oriented individuals who are far more concerned with assigning blame for blame's sake than coming up with a solution to whatever the actual problem is.
Thankfully, not really. I've worked under problematic personalities once or twice — in particular, people with seriously flawed notions of how to communicate. But never under anyone actively destructive, nor (thankfully) anyone who was politically conservative.

That's just it, right-wing conservatives have always managed to coexist with their more constructive neighbors for long periods of time even if the two of them are completely at cross purposes for their overall goals.
You do have a point here. In particular, right-wingers find safe harbor in the fact that liberal-minded people tend to value things like tolerance, diversity, and respect for free expression and dissent. Right-wingers don't necessarily value these things themselves, but they can easily take advantage of those who do.

The scary thing is that rightists have a tendency to co-opt the more constructive efforts of the general population in order to gain power for themselves. Nazi Germany is a really good example of this; even the more forward-thinking constructive Germans who weren't themselves totally keen on Nazi ideology still TOLERATED it as long as the pogroms and oppression were directed at a convenient scapegoat. The same thing happened in France during the revolution, where the thought of preserving the political and bureaucratic knowledge of the monarchs and their servants was suddenly less important than the lower classes satisfying their need for revenge and, again, the imperative to eliminate the people they saw as causing the trouble in the first place.

More recently, the United States made a similarly colossal blunder in the invasion of Iraq, sweeping the entire Ba'ath party completely out of power ... And here again, the general population of the United States and even those in its military who should have known better went along with it because, really, it wasn't their problem.
Total agreement that it was a colossal blunder, of course. Not quite sure what analogy you see with anything in Star Trek, though.

Section 31 exists in that blind spot in human psychology where someone can do terribly destructive things for a long period of time and nobody does anything about it as long they're doing it to someone else. ...
But that's one of the areas where the Federation and Starfleet are explicitly supposed to have improved upon modern-day political dynamics. They do value the lives, rights, and dignities of The Other. They operationalize diversity and equality far more effectively than we do today. They even have a Prime Directive that's all about protecting the interests of people who are explicitly not part of their society nor able to be, just to avoid exploiting, dominating, or otherwise running roughshod over them.

A society like that leaves far fewer niches for ideologies like Section 31's (as you describe it) to hide and thrive. To use S31 as a story element, then, in a way that shows it as pervasive, powerful, and effective (as STID unfortunately did), rather than marginal and isolated (as DS9 mostly did), is implicitly to say that the Federation is a social experiment that has failed. That might not be the intent, but the message would be there.

(Indeed, that's a large part of what bothered me about DSC's finale, even without any S31 involvement. The notion that Sarek, Cornwell, and other high-ranking officials would ever countenance the plan they put in place, as I mentioned, severely undermines the concept of what the Federation and Starfleet are supposed to stand for, no matter what actually happened in the end and what high-minded speeches Burnham gave. The showrunners seem to think the finale represented a vindication of the Federation's high ideals... but it did that only at the most superficial level. And that's why I don't trust them to handle S31 with any degree of nuance or sophistication.)

The fact that Abraham Lincoln personally approved the use of Total War (and Sherman's March, for that matter) doesn't sit well with a lot of people, nor does Eisenhower ordering the use of the atomic bomb. Speaking of otherwise good people who might have needed a reminder...
Lincoln certainly made moral compromises at times, but in his case we're at least judging the decisions of people in the distant past rather than in an idealized future. And it was Truman who made the decision to use the atomic bomb on Japan. (Eisenhower, to his credit, rejected MacArthur's desire to use it in the Korean War.) And yes, that damn well does not sit well with me; AFAIC that was unnecessary and unconscionable. It severely compromised the moral standing of the United States in the postwar years... as did the pervasive national security state Truman also helped put in place.

Well, yeah, the bomb plot was a complete asspull and they totally fumbled the execution of it. They SHOULD have just detonated it anyway (though with the effects being less than predicted) and had Starfleet try to wrestle with the moral consequences of it in the following seasons while the Klingons struggled to contain the scope of the disaster (and Burnham grappling with the fact that Starfleet is now giving her a medal and a pardon for doing the wrong thing, wiping out the prison sentence she got for trying to do the right thing). They might still go that route, but I kind of doubt it.
Hmm. Still not the wrap-up I'd have wanted to see (I'd have preferred if they kept Lorca around at least through season's end, and made him the locus of any moral conflict over how to end the war), but it would have been more interesting than what they actually did, and certainly more thought-provoking.
 
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