Spoilers Bonus scene from Season One Finale

[David cgc]

Section 31 in Into Darkness was still pretty hidden. Kirk and no one else on the Enterprise seemed to know about it.

No, just the thousands of analysts employed in their massive London facility alone, not to mention the engineers and workers building their secret super-ship (or not having a problem with the secret super-ship being built for Starfleet not being delievered to Starfleet but instead to this sketchy third-party group), the crews of the ships they had combing the galaxy for sleeper ships full of augments or whatever, and the support staffs for the same (I don't think you can just pull up at K7 with your secret black-ops fleet to top off the antimatter tanks without getting a few questions) knew about it.

DS9 and ENT suggested that one or two 31 agents on a ship or starbase was a lot, (not unlike the concept of four Changelings in the Federation causing incredible havoc) and STID showed them basically having their own parallel Starfleet, operating totally in secret despite being an unbelievably massive organization.

Now we have DSC showing that 31 agents were working as security guards? In the open, identifying themselves as such to everyone who could see them, where there'd be absolutely no benefit to making them appear to be anything other than standard redshirts (and where, indeed, using redshirts for guard duty where no special knowledge or tactics would be required would make a ton more sense. It'd be like if James Bond was operating a metal detector in the lobby of 10 Downing Street instead of doing something requiring his level of expertise, while wearing a double-0 lapel pin). Again, it's trading on the cachet established by DS9 to make the mundane seem badass, or the unbelievable seem plausible, without actually understanding what was going on in those stories on more than a superficial level. At least STID had the excuse of being written by a conspiracy theorist who'd be predisposed to not think "secret, parallel Starfleet that real Starfleet is just a front for" isn't ridiculous.

 

[Lord Garth]

It makes no sense, because that's not what Section 31 is. Again: Section 31 is NOT the regular Federation spy service. They work in the shadows. So much so, regular Starfleet CAPTAINS don't even know it exists. Black BADGES out in the open, in regular service, is the least logical thing a secret conspiratory society would do.

Okay. Forget about the Black Badges. Pretend they don't exist. Georgiou is still someone they'd want.

 

[Lord Garth]

No, as a matter of fact I don't, because the concepts of "Section 31" and "strict moral code" are near total opposites.

Fuck. This is embarrassing. I was typing fast. But I was also thinking faster than I was typing. That's a typo. I left out a word. Fixing it now. I meant that they don't want someone with a strict moral code.

It should read "people who don't adhere to a strict moral code".

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Georgiou is still someone they'd want.

Agreed on that part.

Georgiou - her MU counterpart, anyway - is as thoroughly, irredeemably evil a character as we've ever seen in Trek. She is without morals, compassion or ethics of any kind. There's literally nothing she wouldn't do. So I guess she really does fit within Section 31's wheelhouse.

(side note: I actually find it rather unfortunate that we know more about the Mirror Georgiou than her prime universe counterpart... )

 

[David cgc]

Okay. Forget about the Black Badges. Pretend they don't exist. Georgiou is still someone they'd want.

To co-opt, sure. This guy came at her like he was a recruiter at a job fair. Compare what they did to Bashir or Reed to this scene. They didn't even have anything for her to do, they're just walking up to someone who is wildly untrustworthy and borderline-inept at tradecraft (remember how she threatened Burnham for trying to "expose her" after she'd made wildly out-of-character racist comments on the bridge? Twice? In a row? Given Lorca could spend more than 30 seconds at a time not doing something suspicious, I think he might've had a point about the Empire needing more competent leadership) and telling her all about their secret organization that isn't even a rumor and giving her a means to infiltrate or impersonate them with absolutely no indication she was amenable to their proposal, never mind trustworthy or loyal in any way.

Bashir had to break out of their mind-games simulation designed to push him into betraying everything he stood for before he got half as much of a pitch. Reed worked for them for years without even hearing the number 31.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Then again, perhaps Leland isn't actually working for Section 31 after all, but is in fact a legitimate Starfleet Intelligence operative who is trying to lure MU Georgiou into a position where she can be easily neutralized.

I mean, Starfleet has got to know just how dangerous Georgiou can be if left unchecked. And they know about the existence of Section 31. What better "lure" could they possibly come up with?

They can't just phaser her into oblivion, because there'd be plenty of witnesses in the Orion community on Qo'noS. So let her think she's joining Section 31 - get her to let a bit of her guard down - and then, when no one's looking, quietly eliminate her, without any fuss.

 

[Lord Garth]

To co-opt, sure. This guy came at her like he was a recruiter at a job fair. Compare what they did to Bashir or Reed to this scene. They didn't even have anything for her to do, they're just walking up to someone who is wildly untrustworthy and borderline-inept at tradecraft (remember how she threatened Burnham for trying to "expose her" after she'd made wildly out-of-character racist comments on the bridge? Twice? In a row? Given Lorca could spend more than 30 seconds at a time not doing something suspicious, I think he might've had a point about the Empire needing more competent leadership) and telling her all about their secret organization that isn't even a rumor and giving her a means to infiltrate or impersonate them with absolutely no indication she was amenable to their proposal, never mind trustworthy or loyal in any way.

Bashir had to break out of their mind-games simulation designed to push him into betraying everything he stood for before he got half as much of a pitch. Reed worked for them for years without even hearing the number 31.

Bashir is someone they weren't too sure about. He's interested in the spy stuff but he's a goody two-shoes. He'll go the extra mile, think outside the box, and make recommendations that aren't popular but they're wondering if it's because he feels sympathy for the Dominion and, if he does, is that a liability? That's why they had to put him through the wringer to gauge his temperature.

Reed, I barely remember anything about him. But I imagine they were wondering "Does he have what it takes?" But don't go by me when it comes to anything related to ENT.

With Georgiou, she's very blatant about what she's about and what she's capable of. I'm sure they wouldn't trust her for a second if a better opportunity came up. That's why they have to make her the most attractive opportunity possible. And then think they can stay one, two, or 10 steps ahead of her. They won't be able to but they've probably convinced themselves of it. Or they want to use her for something and then will dispose of her immediately afterwards. At least try to, anyway.

I think there are different factors at play.

 

[Rahul]

The problem with Section 31 is: It really only works if NOBODY knows it EVEN EXISTS.
I get why the writers want to use Section 31: It's a neat little Easter Egg for the fans. It shows they are familiar with Trek. And it's a super easy explanation to have "bad guys on the good guys side". It's lazy.

The problem is: It undermines the core concept of what Section 31 is: A secret additional chapter in the Foundation papers of the Federation. A secret amendmend to a charter. Forming a secret society, capable to use all means of the entire Federation available, to protect itself and the greater good.

Section 31 is a nightmare version of Isaac Asimov's Foundation organization. NOT James Bond's MI6 in space.

A major oversight in all of Trek is that we never actually got the name of Starfleets "regular" spy service. THAT is something Discovery can (and should!) add the franchise. There is GREAT potential for spy-stories in the Trek universe. Just DON'T use Setion 31 as the standard template!

 

[Lord Garth]

Fair enough.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

A major oversight in all of Trek is that we never actually got the name of Starfleets "regular" spy service.

Excuse me? We certainly did get that name. It's called STARFLEET INTELLIGENCE.

 

[Rahul]

Excuse me? We certainly did get that name. It's called STARFLEET INTELLIGENCE.

You're of course correct
I had a braaaaaaain fart

 

[Rahul]

Really, I would have been extremely satisfied with the exact same scene, had he given her the black badge and said "Welcome to Starfleet Intelligence".

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

You're of course correct
I had a braaaaaaain fart

No worries.

Really, I would have been extremely satisfied with the exact same scene, had he given her the black badge and said "Welcome to Starfleet Intelligence".

Yeppers...but as I said, I find it just as compelling that Leland is just using Section 31 as an excuse, a tool to lure Georgiou into a position where she can be quietly eliminated.

She would never openly join Starfleet Intelligence, but Section 31...that's bait that she can nibble at.

 

[fireproof78]

The problem is: It undermines the core concept of what Section 31 is: A secret additional chapter in the Foundation papers of the Federation. A secret amendmend to a charter. Forming a secret society, capable to use all means of the entire Federation available, to protect itself and the greater good.

It really doesn't. If they are secret, then the only way they can get members is to recruit people that would serve their purpose. In addition, their recruitment of Georgiou is consistent with their recruitment of Bashier.

It feels consistent with the lore, with prior Star Trek, and flows as a consequence from the story.

 

[Tuskin38]

Now is this scene 'canon'? The tweet doesn't say one way or another.

 

[Tosk]

As an answer to "What was with the black badges" this really doesn't make much sense. Why was Section 31 out in plain sight on Discovery, and how come no one except a few prisoners brought on board ever noticed or questioned it? This feels like a retcon to me.


Are there two kinds of Trill in this scene? The fake one has spots where we expect them, but is that another bald one earlier in the scene where the spots continue on to cover most of the head?

 

[Tuskin38]

No, just the thousands of analysts employed in their massive London facility alone, not to mention the engineers and workers building their secret super-ship (or not having a problem with the secret super-ship being built for Starfleet not being delievered to Starfleet but instead to this sketchy third-party group), the crews of the ships they had combing the galaxy for sleeper ships full of augments or whatever, and the support staffs for the same (I don't think you can just pull up at K7 with your secret black-ops fleet to top off the antimatter tanks without getting a few questions) knew about it.

DS9 and ENT suggested that one or two 31 agents on a ship or starbase was a lot, (not unlike the concept of four Changelings in the Federation causing incredible havoc) and STID showed them basically having their own parallel Starfleet, operating totally in secret despite being an unbelievably massive organization.

Now we have DSC showing that 31 agents were working as security guards? In the open, identifying themselves as such to everyone who could see them, where there'd be absolutely no benefit to making them appear to be anything other than standard redshirts (and where, indeed, using redshirts for guard duty where no special knowledge or tactics would be required would make a ton more sense. It'd be like if James Bond was operating a metal detector in the lobby of 10 Downing Street instead of doing something requiring his level of expertise, while wearing a double-0 lapel pin). Again, it's trading on the cachet established by DS9 to make the mundane seem badass, or the unbelievable seem plausible, without actually understanding what was going on in those stories on more than a superficial level. At least STID had the excuse of being written by a conspiracy theorist who'd be predisposed to not think "secret, parallel Starfleet that real Starfleet is just a front for" isn't ridiculous.

It was still secret even if it didn't seem that way.

 

[fireproof78]

Now is this scene 'canon'? The tweet doesn't say one way or another.

Probably not.

The black badges will remain a "black box" of mystery:

 

[Lord Garth]

I don't know if it'll be possible with the narrative flow of any particular episode but I hope somehow they work this scene into Season 2. Or, after they do the recap of the relevant episode, insert this scene, and then go into the episode proper.

I think it's too good to be on the cutting-room floor. Even as atmosphere, visually, or setting a tone or a mood. It just works.

 

[Cyrus]

I liked the scene. And I have always loved the section 31 idea. Glad that post DS9 series have used it.

And now you have the problem that:
1. It is known Kronos can be easily blown up with a handsized bomb, and
2. Completely amoral humans being able to walk around willy-nilly on Kronos with that knowledge

Oh well, so much for the klingons EVER posing a serious threat to Starfleet anymore... Yay! Conflict completely solved....

It wouldn't surprise me if we eventually find out it was Section 31 that blew up Praxis.