BLSSDWLF's TOS Enterprise WIP

[blssdwlf]

Sidetrack - the TOS-R's Enterprise in "The Paradise Syndrome" showed a deflector beam coming from not the center of the big dish but to the side of it (or from the upper section.) Kinda surprised the way it was depicted.

 

[Mytran]

I've always seen the blocks as part of the deflector system, but it's odd that TOS-R (who are fairly TNG-centric for the most part) should choose this option. And why only 1 block?

Definitely odd. Nice repro, though!

 

[blssdwlf]

Thanks Mytran. It's tedious, but I'll eventually be happy with the exterior model enough to go back to the interiors. I knew when I eye-balled the TOS-R deflector effect that it looked "off" and when I checked it out it just confirmed that it wasn't from the center of the dish. My guess is that they misaligned something during their scene setup and didn't have time to go back in and fix it. If it was deliberate, I don't mind as I like the "blocks" being part of the deflector system

 

[Robert Comsol]

I should mention that Andrew Probert considered these blocks to be "space energy field attraction sensors" on the TMP Enterprise (and according to the official TMP Blueprints).

As part of the deflector system protecting the entire ship, I'd expect one block to be actually on the forward bow of the engineering hull, not at the bottom.

Bob

 

[blssdwlf]

I tend to think of the deflectors as full spherical protection so the 3 blocks would just be possible emitter points that also did other things. If I were to do that FX scene over I'd instead have the deflector shields flare up and then concentrate on a single point to project forward onto the asteroid.

 

[Robert Comsol]

Ahem...you mean like the Death Star's "Lazer Eye"?

Bob

 

[blssdwlf]

Or an energy beam hit on the shields played back in reverse

 

[Wingsley]

I'm also an advocate for treating the series and the movies as separate entities in general, especially concerning interpretations of history and especially for that reason I do not treat ENT as canon.

However, ENT's "In A Mirror, Darkly" is set in the mirror universe where a lot of things are different and this is the one exception where I can imagine it co-existing with TOS and leading up to events in "Mirror, Mirror".

Except for the Defiant's aft torpedos I can't see any features of NCC-1764 depicted here that would contradict TOS canon (only some irregularities in the corridor design) and therefore have been grateful to "discover" new spaces in the engineering hull never seen before.

Just to consider such inspiration doesn't automatically imply one accepts the rest of ENT as canon. ENT merely added new visuals to a classic TOS design, nothing more but also nothing less.

As for my project it comes down to a simple question: Would Matt Jefferies have approved the ENT design additions to his Enterprise?

Bob

Interestingly enough, "In A Mirror Darkly" might have been the first on-screen canon depiction of a Constitution class having aft torpedo tubes, but this notion to my knowledge dates back to Franz Joseph's schematic for the Constitution class. It depicts one or a pair (can't quite remember ATM, but I think it was two) mounted in the back of the lower bridge module, around the same area where the astronomical observation telescope is often shown.

I've always thought that the torpedo tubes are mounted above or below the telescope, or the aft section of the bridge module can have it's equipment interchanged at a starbase, depending on the mission (or perhaps the whims of the commanding officer).

Given that the Constitution-class Heavy Cruiser was the intended primary warship at the time of her heyday, I think it makes plenty of sense that she would have a considerable arsenal at her disposal, enough to keep her covered from multiple vectors and angles. That should include the aft.

Sorry to muddy the waters on this, but the notion of aft weapons was mentioned (never shown) in "Balance of Terror".

 

[Robert Comsol]

Sorry to muddy the waters on this, but the notion of aft weapons was mentioned (never shown) in "Balance of Terror".

If you consider "midship phasers" to be the aft phasers, yes.

However, both in "Arena" and "Friday's Child" we hear intercom reports regarding the "aft phaser", so apparently there could be a difference between midship and aft phasers.

I believe midship phasers refer to the "tallywhacker" of the ventral saucer dome.

Bob

 

[blssdwlf]

@Wingsley - yes, thanks for the reference.

My thinking for the weapons arrangement for this project is to have the phaser emitter placements resemble the TMP Enterprise's:

Forward phasers = 2 emitters forward dorsal saucer + 2 emitters forward ventral saucer
Port phasers = 2 emitters port dorsal saucer + 2 emitters port ventral saucer
Starboard phasers = 2 emitters starboard dorsal saucer + 2 emitters starboard ventral saucer
Midship phasers = 4 emitters ventral engineering hull
Aft phasers = 2 emitters above engineering shuttlebay

Midship weapons could've included both the ventral phasers and aft phasers, IMO.

Photon torpedoes = 6 tubes forward ventral saucer.

I currently discount the possibility of aft tubes because they would've been used in "The Changeling".

It's possible that these weapons could have referred to phasers and torpedoes but the dialogue seems to suggest "weapons" to equate to "phaser weapons"-only.

STILES: Energise. Acknowledge.
ANGELA: Phaser control acknowledging. All weapons energising to full.
ROBERT: Happy wedding day, almost.
ANGELA: You won't get off my hook this easily. I'm going to marry you, Mister, battle or phaser weapons notwithstanding.
ROBERT: Well, meanwhile, temporarily at least, I am still your superior officer. So get with it, Mister.
TEC 1: Port weapons show ready.
TEC 2: Starboard and midship weapons show ready.
ANGELA: Acknowledge. All weapons batteries ready.
​

 

[Timo]

I currently discount the possibility of aft tubes because they would've been used in "The Changeling".

...Because the target is at "123 mark 18", past the 90-degree mark?

But that is before Kirk tells Sulu "That's our target". Sulu could well have pointed the ship towards said target there and then, especially when subsequently hearing that Kirk wants torpedoes used - why not point six or more bow tubes at the baddie, rather than just two stern ones? It is only after that, with the third attack, that Scotty specifically says that the ship has lost "warp maneuvering power", and even that shouldn't have to mean that Sulu would be unable to point before shooting.

Kirk only defines "torpedo two" later in the game, potentially after Sulu has finished turning. This could thus easily be the same "torpedo two" that Kirk specified as part of his forward spread in "Journey to Babel".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

For me the problem is that Kirk never gives any order to bring the ship around. Spock's last "location" is a bearing. That "location" was "holding steady" which would indicate the bearing never changed when the Enterprise fired the torpedo. I'm not saying it's impossible for the Enterprise to turn, just that there isn't enough information to confirm that she did turn (like an order, a visual fx, new bearing).

SPOCK: Unknown, Captain. Nothing within sensor range. Something now, Captain. Very small. Bearing one two three degrees, mark one eight. Range ninety thousand kilometers.
KIRK: That's our target, Mister Sulu. Prepare photon torpedo.
SCOTT: Shields still holding, sir, but the drain on the engines is reaching the critical point. Ach, we lost warp maneuvering power. Switching to impulse.
SULU: Photon torpedoes armed, sir.
KIRK: Has the target changed location, Mister Spock?
SPOCK: No, sir. Holding steady.
KIRK: Ready photon torpedo number two, Mister Sulu.
SULU: Ready, sir.
KIRK: Fire.
​

 

[Timo]

Yet "location" and "the way it is given" would be fundamentally separate things, and we never learn the bearing would not have changed (into zero zero zero mark zero, say)...

I just don't see the tactical purpose of not turning; Kirk isn't about to take his enemy by surprise or anything, and isn't biding his time with the torpedo shot, but takes it as soon as Sulu gets a weapon ready for him.

And Scotty is worried about maneuverability, despite being present on the bridge for a change, and aware of the tactical decisions being made and their main viewer -evidenced consequences.

I thus also wonder whether the "drain on the engines" really is from the shields, or rather from frantic attempts at maintaining the high-warp evasive maneuvering that Kirk already explicitly ordered... Tellingly, the loss of "warp maneuvering power" does not result in the shields getting markedly weaker, or NOMAD's third hit would have vaporized the starship already. So it does sound likely that Sulu is still trying to obey Kirk's order to maneuver (first defensively, then perhaps offensively), with less and less success but with impulse maneuverability still explicitly available to him.

On a more general note, we probably have to figure out the logic of only using tubes 2, 4 and 6 for the "Journey to Babel" volley and the choice of #2 here if we want to establish the total number of tubes in the most sensible way. Personally, I feel a balance of six forward and possibly two aft tubes is very nice and jibes with ENT "precedent", but Kirk's preference for even tubes over odd ones might suggest that the forward six are grouped in a specific manner.

Yeah, only firing half the tubes first is a time-honored practice, and Sisko does it in DS9 still despite reload times being extremely short (in the 24th century at least). But that doesn't explain why #2 would be better than #1 in this ep (or why Kirk would pick the evens before the odds in "Journey to Babel", when intuitively the opposite would be the human thing to do). Perhaps we should speculate that the three odd ones are on the dorsal surface of the saucer, and thus cannot be fired at the exact same angles as the three even ones? (Or that the odd ones are actually aft tubes? But it would be weird to start the numbering from an aft tube, IMHO.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

Yet "location" and "the way it is given" would be fundamentally separate things, and we never learn the bearing would not have changed (into zero zero zero mark zero, say)...

Actually we kinda do. Kirk tells Sulu the target is Spock's contact after we get Spock's bearing and distance. When Kirk asks later if the target has changed location, Spock confirms it has not. Since Spock's "location" is based on a bearing and distance from the ship and Sulu was told to target the object (giving him time to turn the ship) prior to the location confirmation that indicated no change then the only thing we can conclude is that the target was still on the same bearing and distance at the time of firing.

If Spock had said something else like, "now bearing directly ahead" or Kirk said "bring forward tube to bear" then I'd easily agree that the ship turned to bring the forward tube to bear.

Then we also have "Elaan of Troyius" where Kirk orders "to bring all tubes to bear." If he really meant ALL tubes to bear then that meant there were only the six forward tubes as that was what was fired. We never saw any stern tubes used right after the forward ones were fired.

I just don't see the tactical purpose of not turning; Kirk isn't about to take his enemy by surprise or anything, and isn't biding his time with the torpedo shot, but takes it as soon as Sulu gets a weapon ready for him.

That's an interesting question. If he had stern tubes, then there would be no tactical purpose to turn anyway. If he had only forward tubes and the torpedo could easily turn and hit a target behind him at 90,000km, again, no reason to turn. It's not like there was one side of the shields that would better protect them.

And Scotty is worried about maneuverability, despite being present on the bridge for a change, and aware of the tactical decisions being made and their main viewer -evidenced consequences.

Scott's more worried about keeping the shields at Full Power as ordered by Kirk.

KIRK: Full power to the shields, Mister Scott.
SCOTT: Giving them all we got.
...
SCOTT: I'm having to divert the warp engine power into the shields, sir, if you want the protection.
KIRK: Mister Spock, speed of those bolts.
SPOCK: Approximately warp fifteen, Captain.
KIRK: Then we can't out run them. Good, Scotty. You're doing the right thing.
​

I thus also wonder whether the "drain on the engines" really is from the shields,

The drain is clearly from keeping the shields at Full Power and not from the maneuvering. At the end, they were maneuvering on impulse power, but this goes to a bit about Nomad and the Enterprise. If Sulu pivots the ship at Impulse to aim, Nomad with it's potentially higher speed could probably still hold the same bearing.

On a more general note, we probably have to figure out the logic of only using tubes 2, 4 and 6 for the "Journey to Babel" volley and the choice of #2 here if we want to establish the total number of tubes in the most sensible way. Personally, I feel a balance of six forward and possibly two aft tubes is very nice and jibes with ENT "precedent", but Kirk's preference for even tubes over odd ones might suggest that the forward six are grouped in a specific manner.

In "Elaan of Troyius" they fired all six. Two rapidly from three positions. I would theorize that on the ventral saucer area there are 3 sets of 2 tubes. 1/2 could be forward, 3/4 on one side and the 5/6 on the other.

That's not to say all Enterprise-type ships didn't have aft tubes. We just know the Enterprise didn't. Curiously, the TMP and -A versions don't appear to have them either.

 

[BK613]

Didn't Kirk order evasive maneuvers first? Did he specify what maneuvers? No because he trusted Sulu to execute the implicit parts of that command correctly. Same with the torpedo order. No need to tell Sulu that the target has to be in the weapon's firing arc; it is implicitly understood. The sign of a well-trained crew.
IMO anyway.

 

[blssdwlf]

@BK613 - Like I said to Timo, if Spock had not confirmed the location after Sulu was told to target Nomad then I'd agree that the ship was turned to bring her forward tubes to bear. (And yep, Sulu was ordered to take "evasive maneuvers".)

But, the order of operation was:

1. Enterprise maintaining Evasive Maneuvers
2. Location established by bearing and distance. If the Enterprise is still turning and dodging and the bearing and distance doesn't change it indicates Nomad is deliberately staying at that bearing and distance from the Enterprise irregardless of what Sulu is doing.
3. Sulu ordered to target Nomad. He's got plenty of time to turn the ship before the next order.
4. Spock confirms that the target location (bearing and distance) is holding steady (no change).
5. Kirk orders fire on target.

So...

1. If Sulu was continuously maneuvering and Nomad was holding same bearing and distance, then there was no way they could've turned to hit it.
2. If Sulu could've turned and Spock confirmed a new bearing then it would indicate a turn to bring forward tubes to bear but that wasn't the case as nothing had changed between them and the target.

And a separate episode, "Elaan of Troyius" showed us that "all tubes" only as forward facing tubes.

Under other conditions, I'd love to add a stern tube but I just don't see it based on the parameters that we're given from the episodes, IMHO. (And it doesn't help that the later movie Enterprise clearly is lacking stern tubes in it's design.)

 

[BK613]

1. If Sulu was continuously maneuvering and Nomad was holding same bearing and distance, then there was no way they could've turned to hit it.
2. If Sulu could've turned and Spock confirmed a new bearing then it would indicate a turn to bring forward tubes to bear but that wasn't the case as nothing had changed between them and the target.

Or
3. Since Kirk asked if the location of the target had changed (and not the bearing to the target)--which Spock confirmed (IOW, Nomad is not moving but "holding steady")--Sulu maneuvered the ship to fire on that location...

 

[blssdwlf]

Yeah, I thought that the location was just a fixed point in space a long time ago.

But later when I was thinking on how to chart the battle out, the only conclusion I can draw from the "location of the target" was that it was still the same description as it was given by Spock, which was bearing and distance. Otherwise, Kirk would have no idea on actual distance or bearing to the target (location) since they went from warp to impulse while still evading before Kirk requested a confirmation.

 

[Timo]

But that's still fudging two fundamentally different things, "bearing" and "location", in a manner nobody would do in reality. If Spock says that the location has not changed, then it automatically follows that the bearing has changed.

Kirk does not need to have any idea of the bearing or the distance, because he has told Sulu to keep track of those.

Is it plausible that NOMAD really remains immobile throughout the battle? That is, from the moment Spock gives the bearing to the moment Sulu fires his torpedo? Certainly, because NOMAD's bolts travel at very high warp and could easily pound Kirk from warp to immobility before Kirk left either the range of NOMAD's weapons, or the range of his own photon torpedoes.

And a separate episode, "Elaan of Troyius" showed us that "all tubes" only as forward facing tubes.

But if torps can't fire over the shoulder, then "all tubes" would implicitly only mean "all applicable tubes".

Really, the ship has to be stripped of aft phasers as well if we're to believe that the command "All phasers fire!" in "Balance of Terror" did not involve the ship spinning around while firing...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

But that's still fudging two fundamentally different things, "bearing" and "location", in a manner nobody would do in reality. If Spock says that the location has not changed, then it automatically follows that the bearing has changed.

Not exactly. "Location" is defined as a "position or site or particular place". Defining the target's location as a "bearing and distance" relative to the Enterprise would fall under "position" and can be plotted as a "location relative to the Enterprise".

So when Spock answers that the target is "holding steady" from Kirk's question "has the target changed location?" could still be based on the original bearing and distance location given earlier. Since Spock and Sulu do not give additional position/location information to Kirk then he only has Spock's original reference to go with.

Now if Spock had rattled off some absolute star coordinates or affirmed Kirk's question with now bearing directly ahead or something else, then yes, I'd be inclined to agree with you.

Kirk does not need to have any idea of the bearing or the distance, because he has told Sulu to keep track of those.

Then why does he need to ask?

Is it plausible that NOMAD really remains immobile throughout the battle? That is, from the moment Spock gives the bearing to the moment Sulu fires his torpedo? Certainly, because NOMAD's bolts travel at very high warp and could easily pound Kirk from warp to immobility before Kirk left either the range of NOMAD's weapons, or the range of his own photon torpedoes.

It's possible. I'd have to re-watch it to see how that gels with the whole battle.

And a separate episode, "Elaan of Troyius" showed us that "all tubes" only as forward facing tubes.

But if torps can't fire over the shoulder, then "all tubes" would implicitly only mean "all applicable tubes".

OTOH, if they could fire over the shoulder, then aft tubes should have been also used as the order was for "all tubes to bear".
OR if they could not fire over the shoulder they could've just gone to warp and got in front of the Klingon to fire her aft tubes at minimum range without turning and let the Klingon run into them and then pivoted to fire her remaining forward tubes.

Really, the ship has to be stripped of aft phasers as well if we're to believe that the command "All phasers fire!" in "Balance of Terror" did not involve the ship spinning around while firing...

This as you know goes to the multiple phaser banks being able to fire through a single or pair of emitters as seen in "The Paradise Syndrome" and "FTWIHAIHTTS" so of course we didn't need to see the ship spinning around to fire all phasers