BLSSDWLF's TOS Enterprise WIP

[MGagen]

@Mgagen - I agree on the 947' but not because of the bridge. There is nothing that ties the bridge to an external feature for scaling purposes. The flight deck you can with the shuttle doors. As far as I can tell, the only set that doesn't fit is the flight deck.

This is only the case if you ignore the obvious correlation between the turbo lift and the tube on the exterior of the bridge dome. At the intended scale (947') the bridge set as designed by Jefferies matches the exterior of the bridge on the model as designed by Jefferies, with the turbolift almost perfectly centered in the exterior tube. Some ignore this alignment and claim that the tube on the exterior is not the turbo lift. Why, then, does MJ give us two of them on his Phase II design corresponding to a bridge with two turbolifts?

As I said before, my intention is not the call into question anyone's desire to have a larger Enterprise. Everyone is entitled to the Enterprise of their imagination. I only point out that there are perfectly defensible reasons to support sticking with 947'.

M.

 

[Albertese]

No one is suggesting that the 947' figure is indefensible, just that it's not the only possibility. If we assume the flight deck miniature is in fact correct, then the bridge dome cannot be. If we assume the bridge dome is correct, then the flight deck cannot be. Since this project is explicitly intended to explore not was the ship should be but, rather, what the ship turned out to be. Scaling up to fit the flight deck allows for a bridge position that still fits into the external dome allowing the nub to be an extra turbo lift tube (which would make sense to have an extra right there, given how quickly a spare lift shows up). However, holding religiously to 947' means something's gotta give.

I can't see what is gained other than de-railing the thread by arguing over 947' at this point. The premise was established pretty early on.

--Alex

 

[Cary L. Brown]

I support everyone's right to the Enterprise of their imagination.

However, 947' was MJ's intention. Discarding that figure primarily because the hangar deck doesn't seem to fit ignores a more important and better documented full size set that does fit the 947' size: The bridge. At the intended scale, and only at the intended scale, does the turbolift fit into the visible tube at the back of the bridge dome. It seems misplaced to reject the 947' feature because the miniature hangar set (which we're not really sure of the dimensions and configuration of) doesn't fit, while throwing out the obvious and well documented bridge scale cue. At the very least, hanging on to the intended length is not "silly."

Once again, I'm not saying one cannot have a bigger E if one wants it. I'm merely pointing out that staying with MJ's size is not silly or indefensible.

M.

The bridge fits perfectly well in my version. And my version is 1067' in length. So I disagree with that comment.



I do agree that there is no one approach that is inherently "right" and another which is "wrong." I personally think that the 947' doesn't work, unless you compromise on the sets. You've got four requirements, and they simply don't match up.

1) The physical appearance of the outside of the ship.
2) The (presumed) scale of the ship.
3) The described layout of the ship.
4) The sets as seen on-screen.

You have to compromise on at least one of those... there is no way around it. You can say that the corridors and rooms have to be lower than seen on-screen. You can say that the exterior shape (and in particular the window locations) need to be adjusted. You can alter the interior arrangement. Or you can alter the scale.

But you have to alter at least one of those.

(And by the way, even then, we have to compromise on a few other issues. There is not enough room in the ship to have 430 individual full-sized cabins, even if there were nothing but the sets we saw on-screen. You have to at least double-up, and frankly, in most cases quadruple up, to fit the full crew into that ship. Doubling up can give you a cruise-liner, but to have a working vessel, most of the crew needs to be four to a cabin.)

This is an argument that gets a whole lot of "absolutist" focus from some folks... ie, they say that "947' is the correct length and you'd better accept it. If you don't, you're WRONG-WRONG-WRONG."

Well, we can't really ask M.J. anymore, but I sincerely doubt he'd have been nearly as dedicated to that number as most of those who defend it tend to be. He gave us a SKETCH... not a fully-realized design (down to the individual structural members, wiring routes, etc). He had ideas... but we know in real life, you have to compromise sometimes, and you choose what's most important to you.

To me, getting the correct outwards appearance and matching the correct inwards appearance elements to that is what matters.

I find the near-religious-ferver that a few people seem to have when discussing the "holy 947' length" to be... well, yes, silly.

Those who don't take it quite that much as an article of religious faith, on the other hand, don't get the same response from me.

 

[Redfern]

Thermians...D'OH!!!

I forgot the name (I must be getting senile) so I failed to make the reference to what some people consider the most sublime Trek parody ever.

Sincerely,

Bill

 

[blssdwlf]

This is only the case if you ignore the obvious correlation between the turbo lift and the tube on the exterior of the bridge dome. At the intended scale (947') the bridge set as designed by Jefferies matches the exterior of the bridge on the model as designed by Jefferies, with the turbolift almost perfectly centered in the exterior tube. Some ignore this alignment and claim that the tube on the exterior is not the turbo lift. Why, then, does MJ give us two of them on his Phase II design corresponding to a bridge with two turbolifts?

That correlation for the turbolift location(s) only works if there was a consistency to it. Since you referenced Phase II, I'll reference the TOS movies. One of the problems I have with that rear nub (TOS) and the top two nubs (TMP model) being the turbolift location is that interior-wise the lift(s) moved around in TOS and the TOS movies but the exterior locations didn't move.

Let's pretend the main viewer in TOS is aimed straight ahead on the ship like it is in the Movies and presumably Phase II. The turbolift location in "The Cage" is 36 degrees off center. But in "WNHMGB" it shifts back to 18 degrees off center. Then from Season 1 onwards, it appears to be back to 36 degrees off center.

In the TOS movies, the twin turbolift locations mirror each other at what appears to be 36 degrees off center in the first 3 movies but by "The Undiscovered Country" eventually end up at 90 degrees. Yet the external structure doesn't change.

That plus the lack of other external matching internal features make it hard for me to argue that the bridge can be used for establishing the ship's scale, IMHO.

 

[Mytran]

When in WNMHGB does the turbolift/viewscreen ratio shift position? The set layout seems unchanged to every other episode (four and half consoles on one side, two and a half on the other).

 

[blssdwlf]

@Mytran- normally a whole section is directly behind the captain,but in wnmhgb you can see that it is split with the turbolift. This is how you can tell that the lift has been shifted. Also, in the episode we never see all the stations, particularly the one nearest the main viewer on Spock's side so it might not have the same ratio...

 

[Mytran]

True we never see all the consoles, that was a bit of a stretch on my part

I don't have the video of WNMHGB to hand, so I checked out Trekcore and it seems to show the odd setup you mentioned:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/thumbnails.php?album=3&page=3
(top right)

Weird! I'd never noticed that. Sharp eyes!

 

[blssdwlf]

Hi Mytran,

Look on the same trekcore album, page 4 top left - there should be a whole panel behind him not the partial and the turbolift. Another spot to look is page 7 bottom right where you are looking at the bridge from the side. In wnmhgb the whole panel is flat from the rail opening while in other episodes thats where two whole panels join up.

 

[Mytran]

Yep, noticed my mistake after I made my original post. Whoops!

 

[blssdwlf]

no worries

I guess Kirk had a minor refit after this episode

 

[Mytran]

Plug & Play bridge modules! After all, there were very definite changes made to the bridge after WNMHGB.

And who's idea was it to put a label on the captain's chair? Did it really need further identification?

 

[Cary L. Brown]

no worries

I guess Kirk had a minor refit after this episode

I've always assumed that Kirk inherited the Enteprise which was largely unchanged from how it was under Pike's command (and which had a crew of about 200).

The encounter with the barrier just trashed the ship, and as a result, while the ship was able to LIMP back to Federation space using scavenged components from a mining facility, the damage was very severe and the ship had to undergo a full refitting.

I've always said that the "WNMHGB" ship was still the "all military" version of the ship, a heavy cruiser mainly dedicated to security operations, not long-range exploration. There were likely quite a few of these, not merely twelve.

But twelve were refit and relaunched as "explorers." The advent of replicator technology (food slots, quartermaster department requirements, spare parts manufacturing, etc) freed up a large amount of what was previously cargo space aboard this ship, and they basically put a full science vessel's complement of personnel and facilities into the freed up space. The Enterprise, and twelve other heavy cruisers, became the first "exploratory cruisers" and were simultaneously launched on a widely-publicized "five year exploratory mission" with great fanfare. When the Enterprise was the only ship to return, fully intact, from that mission, Starfleet elected to make the Enterprise insignia that of the entire Starfleet. (That, and I'm sure they were getting sick of coming up with custom insignia for every single ship they launched!)

So, there was likely at least a year between WNMHGB and The Corbomite Manuever. While the outside of the ship was mostly unchanged, the internal configuration was altered almost as dramatically as it was during the eighteen months prior to ST-TMP.

 

[Albertese]

(That, and I'm sure they were getting sick of coming up with custom insignia for every single ship they launched!)

I suggest that the insignia were assigned per sub-fleet of the over all star fleet. This would explain why there are other ships with the arrowhead (those clearly non-Enterprise crew on the starbase in "Court Martial") but also other ships with their own thing (Antares, Exeter, Constellation, et al)
Defiant could go either way depending if you want to go with "The Tholian Web" or "In a Mirror Darkly."

But let's not derail the thread.

--Alex

 

[Mytran]

CLB - I like that interpretation of the extended refit a lot, and it certainly explains away a great many of the visual changes between WNMHGB and TCB.
The more militaristic mission also ties into Kirk's original monologue:

Enterprise Log: Captain James Kirk commanding. We are leaving that vast cloud of stars and planets which we call our galaxy. Behind us: Earth, Mars, Venus, even our sun are specks of dust. A question: what is out there in the black void beyond? Until now our mission has been that of space law regulation, contact with Earth colonies and investigation of alien life. But now, a new task; a probe out into where no man has gone before.

 

[blssdwlf]

Whoa, Kirk's going extra galactic!

 

[Albertese]

Mytran, is that from an early script? I don't recall having heard that bit before. But's been a while since I watched the episode, I might be mis-remembering.

--Alex

 

[Mytran]

It's from the unaired 2nd pilot, before it got re-edited into standard series format (including the more familiar voiceover). Although probably not canon, I think the changed monologue sets up the action very well in a "first mission" sort of way.

You can find clips of the original segments on Youtube I think. There are several other corridor shots that didn't make it into the broadcast WNMHGB, although bizarrely one shot ended up in the Man Trap!

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Mytran,

Yeah, I've seen the "unaltered" version of "WNMHGB" as well, and I definitely "absorbed" that monologue.

I saw it independently, but isn't that also part of the BD package now?

 

[blssdwlf]

I like all the theories put forth

My current operating theory:

1. The Enterprise looked like the diagram seen in "The Enterprise Incident" before or during the early part of Pike's command.

2. Enterprise receives a slight redesign and refit, losing the lower beveled saucer edge and the warp nacelles are moved closer together. She may have also been enlarged as well.

3. When Pike turned over command to Kirk, the Enterprise underwent a minor refit and upgraded systems including the turbolift location on the bridge. Crew may or may not have been bumped up to 400 at this point as Mitchell says there are at least 100 women on board. The ship may have also been *specially outfitted* for going out of the galaxy for a period of time. The ship might also instead of being bumped up to 400, might have been an even ratio of men and women for the extra-galactic mission.

4. When returning from the galactic barrier, Starfleet shelved the extra-galactic mission and refitted the Enterprise for normal exploration within the galaxy. The turbolift location in the bridge is once again moved.

5. After the events of "Balance of Terror", Kirk has photon torpedo launchers added to the Enterprise as a secondary weapon.

6. At some point, the Enterprise's energizers are upgraded to handle dilithium crystals.

7. The computer system gets an upgrade during general repair and maintenace at Cygnet-14. After "Tomorrow is Yesterday", Enterprise puts in for a 3 week overhaul at a Starbase to undo the changes.

8. Between Season 1 and 2, the Enterprise receives an engineering upgrade, moving the energizers to the newly expanded engine room.

9. The engine room and engines are upgraded over S2 and S3 (and presumably the remainder of her 5 year mission)

10. Enterprise completes her 5 year mission and undergoes a significant redesign and refit for duty over 2.5 years in "The Motion Picture". Overall size is enlarged with majority of the ship built new from the ground up.

11. Enterprise is refit and modified by "The Wrath of Khan". Direct access to the dilithium/energizer is added as well as an extra ladder in the engine room. Other cosmetic changes are done to the bridge.

12. Enterprise is destroyed in "The Search for Spock"

13. Enterprise-A is commissioned under Kirk's command in "The Voyage Home". Different bridge design and turbolift locations.

14. Enterprise-A engine room is modified/upgraded by "The Undiscovered Country". The TNG-like warp shaft replaces the old shaft and a transparent booth/control area is added. The turbolifts are once again moved on the bridge.

15. Enterprise-A retired after Kirk takes a very very long side trip via some "star to the right" before returning to Earth