Bleach - Anime Disscussion (Spoilers)
- Thread starter Technobuilder
- Start date
Yes, I felt the same 
Ichigo`s discussion about the souls of Zanpakuto with Muramasa was very interesting. It was obvious to me again that his views are not only based on facts but also tainted by his own prejudices and whatever his own history is. I can understand the anger Yumichika`s Zanpakuto spirit feels but Muramasa seems to be unable and unwilling to understand that not all Zanpakuto were treated badly and need rescuing.
This episode showed that it is debatable how willing at least some Zanpakuto spirits are to leave and join Muramasa. Muramasa literally yanked Zangetsu out of Ichigo`s body and didn`t give him any choice in the matter I could see. I am wondering more strongly than before if Muramasa is also using some kind of mind control.I liked it a lot that also Unohana and Mayuri, the doctors and scientists, play a part in this story.
I had my doubts from early on that removing Zangetsu would mean that Ichigo is powerless. That Ichigo`s hollow side took over was not a surprise but I didn`t expect to see the full hollowfication we have seen when Ichigo started training with the Vizards. It makes sense that it is much easier now for Ichigo`s hollow side to gain a foothold because the influence of Zangetsu is missing. Nevertheless, the change was a bit of a shock and I could see an unexpected surprise for Zangetsu and Muramasa as well.
For a short time Ichigo definitely lost control but I think it is mainly thanks to his training with the Vizards that he managed to push the hollow away and return to his human form. It was impressive but also showed again how dangerous Ichigo`s powers are.
Zangetsu was definitely much more to Ichigo than a weapon. He became a mentor to him, a partner who helps him to protect his family and friends. After Shirosaki got stronger Zangetsu disappeared into the background. Ichigo missed him and this painful reunion touched me a lot. I don`t think Zangetsu`s heart was really in it when he fought Ichigo. At least it didn`t look like that to me.
I wonder what will happen next and what kind of agreement Ichigo and Shirosaki will reach.
Ichigo`s discussion about the souls of Zanpakuto with Muramasa was very interesting. It was obvious to me again that his views are not only based on facts but also tainted by his own prejudices and whatever his own history is. I can understand the anger Yumichika`s Zanpakuto spirit feels but Muramasa seems to be unable and unwilling to understand that not all Zanpakuto were treated badly and need rescuing.
This episode showed that it is debatable how willing at least some Zanpakuto spirits are to leave and join Muramasa. Muramasa literally yanked Zangetsu out of Ichigo`s body and didn`t give him any choice in the matter I could see. I am wondering more strongly than before if Muramasa is also using some kind of mind control.I liked it a lot that also Unohana and Mayuri, the doctors and scientists, play a part in this story.
I had my doubts from early on that removing Zangetsu would mean that Ichigo is powerless. That Ichigo`s hollow side took over was not a surprise but I didn`t expect to see the full hollowfication we have seen when Ichigo started training with the Vizards. It makes sense that it is much easier now for Ichigo`s hollow side to gain a foothold because the influence of Zangetsu is missing. Nevertheless, the change was a bit of a shock and I could see an unexpected surprise for Zangetsu and Muramasa as well.
For a short time Ichigo definitely lost control but I think it is mainly thanks to his training with the Vizards that he managed to push the hollow away and return to his human form. It was impressive but also showed again how dangerous Ichigo`s powers are.
Zangetsu was definitely much more to Ichigo than a weapon. He became a mentor to him, a partner who helps him to protect his family and friends. After Shirosaki got stronger Zangetsu disappeared into the background. Ichigo missed him and this painful reunion touched me a lot. I don`t think Zangetsu`s heart was really in it when he fought Ichigo. At least it didn`t look like that to me.
I wonder what will happen next and what kind of agreement Ichigo and Shirosaki will reach.
It seems now that Yamamoto is gone the three elders Shunsui, Ukitake and Unohana emerged as the Shinigami leaders in this crisis situation. I like this development very much and it makes a lot of sense. I am not so sure about Shunsui but Ukitake and Unohana are definitely wise and level headed people. This is what is needed at the moment.
Kazeshini is definitely the creepiest Zanpaktuo spirit I have seen so far and he is quite crazy, too. Hisagi vs. Kazeshini was also impressive in this episode and it seems there will be more next week. I am looking forward to it.
Renji meeting his two Zanpaktuo spirits was a nice contrast because these scenes were so funny! My six-year-old couldn`t stop laughing when the smaller one was picking her nose. She immediately thought of Omaeda and so did I. But it didn`t stay funny for long. This part showed the right balance.
This episode revealed a lot of interesting facts. Muramasa said that he can enter any Shinigami soul quite easily. I wonder if that also applies to Shinigami whose Zanpaktuo spirits have left. And if that doesn`t matter, I wonder what could Muramasa do within the mind of a Shinigami. I doubt it that it would be that easy that Muramasa simply visits everyone he wants to get rid of when they sleep and kill them. That would not be in the spirit of Bleach. A lot of red shirts got killed, mostly quickly and without any chance to defend themselves. But so far this didn`t happen to the known and definitely not the main characters. They can also get hurt as we have seen but not without a fight.
That Muramasa killed his wielder is not something I expected but it explains a lot. It also seems that this is another overconfident villain who is too sure of his powers. When talking to Ichigo within his soul space he admitted that there is a lot about Ichigo he has never seen before but nevertheless, there is no doubt in his mind that he will get what he wants.
It is obvious now that mind control is involved here when Muramasa is addressing the Zanpaktuo spirits. They are weapons by nature. Of course their first instinct is to fight. And my guess is, the task of a responsible wielder is to control that instinct, to use it wisely. As we have seen with Zangetsu and Ichigo, a Zanpaktuo spirit can push the wielder much further than he would be able to on his own. Especially here I could see that the ideal relationship is a healthy balance of give and take on both sides. I think it is very likely that Muramasa will lose control of some of these spirits sooner or later. But others like Kazeshini who have the strongest killer instincts and spirits like Yumichika`s spirit who have good reason to despise their wielders, they will stay with him willingly.
The emergence of Shirosaki was impressive. I felt for Ichigo. There was absolutely nothing he could do. After losing Zangetsu also Shirosaki left his body. He must have felt utterly helpless, abandoned and naked without any powers. Shirosaki`s smile is nearly as creepy as Gin`s. He is a very interesting character and I enjoy it that Bleach is exploring him more now, it seems.
What Shirosaki says has to be looked at with caution. As it is with many villains or characters that are leaning more to the dark side, they like telling half truths or lies. Shirosaki IS part of Ichigo`s soul. My observant daughter pointed that out to me. When we watched the previous episode again she pointed at the scene when Ichigo changed into his full hollow form and said: “That is the soul chain!” I looked again. Yes, she was right! I hadn`t noticed and she was rightly proud of herself.
It comes back to the King and the Horse discussion between Ichigo and Shirosaki a while back. Ichigo`s hollow side embodies a strong fighting and killer instinct. Therefore Shirosaki was telling the truth from his perspective when he said that he embodies his instincts. And because he is now the dominant part whenever Ichigo is using his powers, it is not entirely wrong to say that he is Ichigo`s true form. But that is, of course, only true when looking at the nature of Ichigo`s reiatsu. And even then, at the moment it is Ichigo who is the King and Shirosaki who is the Horse.
We have to wait until next week in order to find out what happens next but it seems that Muramasa`s powers don`t work on Shirosaki, a hollow spirit and that he is fighting him. I am very curious what will happen next!
Before I finish (I can`t believe I wrote more than one page already!) I want to mention the hilarious mini story at the end. Ichigo and Ishida as unwilling food tasters of Orihime`s and Matsumoto`s cooking! As my daughter said being worried, someone has to untie them before they get sick! That purple bubbly stuff looks dangerous.
Kazeshini is definitely the creepiest Zanpaktuo spirit I have seen so far and he is quite crazy, too. Hisagi vs. Kazeshini was also impressive in this episode and it seems there will be more next week. I am looking forward to it.
Renji meeting his two Zanpaktuo spirits was a nice contrast because these scenes were so funny! My six-year-old couldn`t stop laughing when the smaller one was picking her nose. She immediately thought of Omaeda and so did I. But it didn`t stay funny for long. This part showed the right balance.
This episode revealed a lot of interesting facts. Muramasa said that he can enter any Shinigami soul quite easily. I wonder if that also applies to Shinigami whose Zanpaktuo spirits have left. And if that doesn`t matter, I wonder what could Muramasa do within the mind of a Shinigami. I doubt it that it would be that easy that Muramasa simply visits everyone he wants to get rid of when they sleep and kill them. That would not be in the spirit of Bleach. A lot of red shirts got killed, mostly quickly and without any chance to defend themselves. But so far this didn`t happen to the known and definitely not the main characters. They can also get hurt as we have seen but not without a fight.
That Muramasa killed his wielder is not something I expected but it explains a lot. It also seems that this is another overconfident villain who is too sure of his powers. When talking to Ichigo within his soul space he admitted that there is a lot about Ichigo he has never seen before but nevertheless, there is no doubt in his mind that he will get what he wants.
It is obvious now that mind control is involved here when Muramasa is addressing the Zanpaktuo spirits. They are weapons by nature. Of course their first instinct is to fight. And my guess is, the task of a responsible wielder is to control that instinct, to use it wisely. As we have seen with Zangetsu and Ichigo, a Zanpaktuo spirit can push the wielder much further than he would be able to on his own. Especially here I could see that the ideal relationship is a healthy balance of give and take on both sides. I think it is very likely that Muramasa will lose control of some of these spirits sooner or later. But others like Kazeshini who have the strongest killer instincts and spirits like Yumichika`s spirit who have good reason to despise their wielders, they will stay with him willingly.
The emergence of Shirosaki was impressive. I felt for Ichigo. There was absolutely nothing he could do. After losing Zangetsu also Shirosaki left his body. He must have felt utterly helpless, abandoned and naked without any powers. Shirosaki`s smile is nearly as creepy as Gin`s. He is a very interesting character and I enjoy it that Bleach is exploring him more now, it seems.
What Shirosaki says has to be looked at with caution. As it is with many villains or characters that are leaning more to the dark side, they like telling half truths or lies. Shirosaki IS part of Ichigo`s soul. My observant daughter pointed that out to me. When we watched the previous episode again she pointed at the scene when Ichigo changed into his full hollow form and said: “That is the soul chain!” I looked again. Yes, she was right! I hadn`t noticed and she was rightly proud of herself.
It comes back to the King and the Horse discussion between Ichigo and Shirosaki a while back. Ichigo`s hollow side embodies a strong fighting and killer instinct. Therefore Shirosaki was telling the truth from his perspective when he said that he embodies his instincts. And because he is now the dominant part whenever Ichigo is using his powers, it is not entirely wrong to say that he is Ichigo`s true form. But that is, of course, only true when looking at the nature of Ichigo`s reiatsu. And even then, at the moment it is Ichigo who is the King and Shirosaki who is the Horse.
We have to wait until next week in order to find out what happens next but it seems that Muramasa`s powers don`t work on Shirosaki, a hollow spirit and that he is fighting him. I am very curious what will happen next!
Before I finish (I can`t believe I wrote more than one page already!) I want to mention the hilarious mini story at the end. Ichigo and Ishida as unwilling food tasters of Orihime`s and Matsumoto`s cooking! As my daughter said being worried, someone has to untie them before they get sick! That purple bubbly stuff looks dangerous.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
The Hollow, Shirosaki, is essentially Ichigo's Id. Pure, unbridled lust, desire, the most ancient animal instincts; all but a beast.
Hence, why the person who turned into a Hollow is never punished for the Hollow he's become's actions. It's just an animal following instincts, it can't be held responsible for its own actions.
Shirosaki, though, still inside Ichigo, and Ichigo not being dead and powerless, means that he gets to have something resembling sentience.
Also, someone mentioned seeing Bankai in Zanpakuto who we haven't seen Bankai of? I don't we will, I don't even think we'll be seeing any bankai even of those who did achieve it. None of the Zanpakuto have shown Bankai yet, and I think it can only be achieved by the Zanpakuto and Shinigami becoming more than the sum of their parts. Without the Shinigami to supply their side of the equation, no Zanpakuto can achieve bankai, it seems to me.
I'm missing Zaraki Kenpachi though. Kenpachi's power seems to come all from himself, nothing of his Zanpakuto. If he were around, he'd still be unleashing awe-inducing power even without the spirit in his sword. Does that mean Maramusa is Kenpachi's Zanpakuto? If Maramusa thinks he's killed Kenpachi he's going to be in for a rude awakening.
Hence, why the person who turned into a Hollow is never punished for the Hollow he's become's actions. It's just an animal following instincts, it can't be held responsible for its own actions.
Shirosaki, though, still inside Ichigo, and Ichigo not being dead and powerless, means that he gets to have something resembling sentience.
Also, someone mentioned seeing Bankai in Zanpakuto who we haven't seen Bankai of? I don't we will, I don't even think we'll be seeing any bankai even of those who did achieve it. None of the Zanpakuto have shown Bankai yet, and I think it can only be achieved by the Zanpakuto and Shinigami becoming more than the sum of their parts. Without the Shinigami to supply their side of the equation, no Zanpakuto can achieve bankai, it seems to me.
I'm missing Zaraki Kenpachi though. Kenpachi's power seems to come all from himself, nothing of his Zanpakuto. If he were around, he'd still be unleashing awe-inducing power even without the spirit in his sword. Does that mean Maramusa is Kenpachi's Zanpakuto? If Maramusa thinks he's killed Kenpachi he's going to be in for a rude awakening.
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So, I've been away catching up on Naruto for the past several weeks and was just wondering how this Zanpakuto Arc is shaping up so far?
Decent Filler or another Soccer with the Princess episode?
Decent Filler or another Soccer with the Princess episode?
I liked the “Soccer with the Princess” episodes but the Zanpaktuo arc is so much better! I am nowadays mainly active at the Bleachasylum. If you don`t mind spoilers and that includes the very latest Japanese Mangas, I can recommend that place very much. They have a survey at the moment and about three quarters of the votes for favourite filler went to the Zanpaktuo arc. It is still very early days but so far I have to agree: The story is impressive. I very much hope they can keep this up!
Tite Kubo is so much involved in it that there won`t be a new Bleach movie this year. I think they also want to make a special effort with the coming Ichigo/Ulquiorra fight after the filler. (The first parts of the “The Lust” six part story and surrounding chapters just came out in Japan with issue 40. I heard they had impressive sales figures!) That is my favourite Bleach story and it very much deserves this extra attention. But as much as I am looking forward to this, I am already a big fan of this new filler and I won`t mind at all if it will really be as long as the Bount story.
I think sooner or later Kenpachi will appear and be his usual crazy self.
but the Zanpaktuo arc is so much better! I am nowadays mainly active at the Bleachasylum. If you don`t mind spoilers and that includes the very latest Japanese Mangas, I can recommend that place very much. They have a survey at the moment and about three quarters of the votes for favourite filler went to the Zanpaktuo arc. It is still very early days but so far I have to agree: The story is impressive. I very much hope they can keep this up!Tite Kubo is so much involved in it that there won`t be a new Bleach movie this year. I think they also want to make a special effort with the coming Ichigo/Ulquiorra fight after the filler. (The first parts of the “The Lust” six part story and surrounding chapters just came out in Japan with issue 40. I heard they had impressive sales figures!) That is my favourite Bleach story and it very much deserves this extra attention. But as much as I am looking forward to this, I am already a big fan of this new filler and I won`t mind at all if it will really be as long as the Bount story.
I think sooner or later Kenpachi will appear and be his usual crazy self.
Thanks for the updates and opinions guys.
I'll be sure to check this out after I finish catching up on Naruto.
I'll be sure to check this out after I finish catching up on Naruto.
I have just discovered something interesting: The scans of the covers of the two Japanese Bleach calendars for next year have been published and one of them is showing Muramasa with Ichigo and Zangetsu! That is definitely a first. I have never seen any filler scene or character in a calendar and certainly not as a cover!
Maybe the whole calendar in question is about the Zanpaktuo story? I don`t know yet but I keep looking.
I think this shows that the Zanpaktuo story is at least more “canon” than the other fillers.
Maybe the whole calendar in question is about the Zanpaktuo story? I don`t know yet but I keep looking.
I think this shows that the Zanpaktuo story is at least more “canon” than the other fillers.
Sorry, when I said Naruto, I was being unclear.
I finished the first series 2 years ago, I'm currently working my way through Naruto: Shippuden (currently episode 75)
I'm not sure which are the filler arcs in Shippuden since I realized I loose interest when I know where they are in advance.
Since I started back, I've actually been enjoying Naruto again like way back when they had the Chunin Exams, Choji and the Soldier Pill, or The Third's defense of Konoha.
Anyways, I think I've only got like 40 or 50 more episodes to go and then I can catch up on this Bleach arc (and not have to wait around week to week.)
There is something to be said for getting to see them all in a row sometimes.
While I've never been someone who only reads Canon arcs since I love good stories no matter the form, I always felt that many anime series were just creating filler instead of worthwhile storylines to buy time.
When you get a creator involved in the direction of a storyline such as Bleach has done in the past, and is doing now, then I get excited to see the results. The thing they have to work on in doing these is story pacing though, the BOUNT arc has episode moments where nothing really happened and it showed, but overall I'd say that was a worthwhile arc.
What they really need to stop doing is injecting Manga based storylines with low-quality filler and slapstick as a way to stretch for time, it dilutes the final product in my humble opinion and is not the best direct to be heading in.
^
Sorry this point reminded me of a question I had, where are the bodies of the 3 mod souls Urahara created that Kon is always talking with? Couldn't they and Kon just work at the store in real bodies? (Well maybe not Kon.)
Yeah, that is nice sometimes, most recently, I marathoned all of Kurokami in a day when I found out Bandai was streaming it legally over on crunchyroll.com. It was a good shounen fighting show, but one of the shorter ones. Although if you get too far behind on the longer series you're following I find it to be a pain.
I've found Shippuden to be a much more entertaining and less annoying series than the first Naruto maybe it's the fact the characters are older or the change to a better music composer. The music for the series has particularly impressed me, with some great stuff like this.
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I think part of what killed Naruto's first series towards the end was that there was 2 years of filler material that contributed absolutely nothing to the overall storyline.
Another factor is obviously the differences in the characters ages as you mentioned.
In the original series, they're like 11-13, in this one they're 15-17. (I think)
Naruto has always been at it's best when it was focusing on the emotional arcs of its vast array of characters.
Another factor is obviously the differences in the characters ages as you mentioned.
In the original series, they're like 11-13, in this one they're 15-17. (I think)
Naruto has always been at it's best when it was focusing on the emotional arcs of its vast array of characters.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
The first Naruto series was lightyears above Shippuuden, and the music is amazing. Way better then the bland non-entities that is the music in Shippuuden. The manga went down the drain, like straight to hell, after the timeskip, and the Shippuuden exemplifies this perfectly. The storylines itself are bad, and then they spent them drawing-drawing-drawing out. If you think powering up took long in DBZ; they spent a special a full hour, 2 entire episodes worth, just showing Naruto in KT4 versions mostly just standing there growling.
It is truly bad, when filler episodes are simply better than the manga.
And yet, those fillers are better, and more fun to watch than non-filler Shippuuden. Let's not even talk about the much better Shippuuden filler that kicks the non-filler Shippuuden's ass ten ways from sunday.
I totally disagree. The first Naruto series' music wasn't bad, no, however, it didn't make me go buy the soundtrack like Naruto Shippuden did.
Also I like Shippuden better because it's not like the first series which was rather humdrum and boring to me most of time with a few highlights here and there
It also dragged the fights out way too much, and generally Naruto (the character) just annoyed the crap out of me. The show was more interesting when it focused on other characters.
In Shippuden on the other hand, it fixes some of the things that annoyed me about the first series. Naruto's older and doesn't annoy me as much, plus he's not as green and his fights aren't as boring. Heck, I actually like him in this series, though I still prefer other characters. A greater majority of the events that have happened in the series have been of importance and consequence which actually advances the plot-line. The majority of the fights are also very interesting, and tend to not drag out as much. It also has some major and secondary character death too. It only really fails in the animation department.
So I call it an improvement.
Anyhow back on topic.
Bleach 235
This episode was again very cool. It seems the shinigami haven't really lost their power after all. Renji was able to perform a release after getting his nerve back and Ichigo seems to have come to mutual understanding with his hollow that Muramasa needs to be taken out. Hey, at least they agree on something.
Also I like Shippuden better because it's not like the first series which was rather humdrum and boring to me most of time with a few highlights here and there
(Chunin Exams, the Defense of Leaf Village, and Chasing after Sasuke when he decided to leave the Leaf for Orochimaru).
In Shippuden on the other hand, it fixes some of the things that annoyed me about the first series. Naruto's older and doesn't annoy me as much, plus he's not as green and his fights aren't as boring. Heck, I actually like him in this series, though I still prefer other characters. A greater majority of the events that have happened in the series have been of importance and consequence which actually advances the plot-line. The majority of the fights are also very interesting, and tend to not drag out as much. It also has some major and secondary character death too. It only really fails in the animation department.
So I call it an improvement.
Anyhow back on topic.
Bleach 235
This episode was again very cool. It seems the shinigami haven't really lost their power after all. Renji was able to perform a release after getting his nerve back and Ichigo seems to have come to mutual understanding with his hollow that Muramasa needs to be taken out. Hey, at least they agree on something.
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3D Master
Rear Admiral
That's basically the entire series, with the exception of the Zabuza arc!?!?
How the hell can you say that? It had no filler, it didn't need any. Up until and including the defense of Leaf arc, Naruto got to make the manga virtually 1 on 1, result being, no meandering shots, no slow pans of a standing still fighter, the fights were actually fights, and they were fast paced and barely stopped.
Shippuuden is nothing but dragging out the animation time to let the manga get a greater head start. It's slow as all hell, episode after episode of Naruto just standing there doing nothing, or running after someone and doing nothing.
Pre-timeskip Naruto was awesome. Post-timeskip he annoys the hell out of me. "Oh, Sasuke! Oh, Sasuke where art though! Bwaha, Sasuke doesn't like me anymore! But I will get him back. Bwah, Sasuke! Oh, Sasuke! Please, don't kill Sasuke! Come back to me, Sasuke!" GAAH, finish the bastard off and be done with already!
He's not as green!? He's greener! He doesn't fight at all, and the off chance he does fight, the fights are pathetic and lack any creativity, showing him to be less capable then he was before the time-skip.
Pre-timeskip, not counting the filler tagged on at the end (and even some those have stuff going on), the ENTIRE series is all directly from the manga. It's ALL plot-line, there's nothing that is not plot-line, and it actually moves on, instead of the umpteenth time where characters just stand in one spot for an entire episode.
Maybe you should go check the Zabuza fight in the forest and compare it to Naruto chasing after Deidara for 10 episodes straight and doing nothing but, or standing in one spot as KT4 against Orochimaru. Shipuuden has nothing but drag, drag, drag, drag, drag, drag, drag, drag.