Black Swan Discussion Thread

[Professor Zoom]

Natalie Portman won a much deserved Best Actress Golden Globe award this evening for her powerhouse performance in Black Swan.

Perhaps, but, personally, I would say it's more to the fact the other nominees aren't that good (Kidman) or people haven't seen the movie. (Winter's Bone, Frankie and Alice, Blue Valentine.)

 

[Admiral_Young]

A film having multiple writers in this day and age isn't unusual. WGA's credit system can be a little whacky from what I have come to understand. Mark Heyman (also worked on The Wrestler) I believe wrote the original draft of the script after being asked by Afronosky. The two other credited writers probably worked on rewrites and revisions. Natalie Portman's performance in this movie was incredible and it was great to see her push herself and portray such a vulnerable role. It has been a long time since I've seen her in a role this great before. Mila Kunis deserves a great deal of praise as well for playing Lilly.

@stj while I disagree with your review...I enjoyed reading it. Nicely written.

 

[JacksonArcher]

Natalie Portman won a much deserved Best Actress Golden Globe award this evening for her powerhouse performance in Black Swan.

Perhaps, but, personally, I would say it's more to the fact the other nominees aren't that good (Kidman) or people haven't seen the movie. (Winter's Bone, Frankie and Alice, Blue Valentine.)

Well, seeing as how academy members get screeners of the nominated films, I am not sure if I agree with that.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Natalie Portman won a much deserved Best Actress Golden Globe award this evening for her powerhouse performance in Black Swan.

Perhaps, but, personally, I would say it's more to the fact the other nominees aren't that good (Kidman) or people haven't seen the movie. (Winter's Bone, Frankie and Alice, Blue Valentine.)

Well, seeing as how academy members get screeners of the nominated films, I am not sure if I agree with that.

Doesn't mean they watch them. My wife is a member of SAG. We get screeners. We watch the ones we want to. (Edited to add: Academy members don't vote for the Golden Globes. This is the Hollywood Foreign Press.)

Also: The Hollywood Foreign Press, well, let's just say they aren't exactly the most... how shall I say it? They aren't against a little bit of corruption. In other words, they are star fuckers.

That said, I do think Portman's win actually speaks to the larger issue of QUALITY roles for women. And I think it also helped that Comedy and Drama are split categories. I don't think she will be picking up an Oscar when she will be competing with Annette Benning.

 

[JacksonArcher]

Perhaps, but, personally, I would say it's more to the fact the other nominees aren't that good (Kidman) or people haven't seen the movie. (Winter's Bone, Frankie and Alice, Blue Valentine.)

Well, seeing as how academy members get screeners of the nominated films, I am not sure if I agree with that.

Doesn't mean they watch them. My wife is a member of SAG. We get screeners. We watch the ones we want to. (Edited to add: Academy members don't vote for the Golden Globes. This is the Hollywood Foreign Press.)

Also: The Hollywood Foreign Press, well, let's just say they aren't exactly the most... how shall I say it? They aren't against a little bit of corruption. In other words, they are star fuckers.

That said, I do think Portman's win actually speaks to the larger issue of QUALITY roles for women. And I think it also helped that Comedy and Drama are split categories. I don't think she will be picking up an Oscar when she will be competing with Annette Benning.

I must disagree further. I think the voters make informed decisions, and sometimes sway against public opinion. Judging by your logic, Johnny Depp should have walked away with a Best Actor in a Comedy award last night, but Paul Giamatti walked away with the award instead.

Natalie Portman isn't even that big of a star, at least compared to Nicole Kidman. However, even though I haven't seen all of the nominated films and performances for Best Actress, I would say that Natalie Portman gave them a run for their money. Her performance in Black Swan was extraordinary and deserves every bit the recognition it so rightfully will and will continue to receive.

Also, while I'm sure it will definitely become Natalie Portman vs. Annette Bening at the Oscars this year, Portman has the most momentum and I believe she will win. It will be similar to Sandra Bullock and Meryl Streep. Streep was rumored to win, and had early momentum, but Bullock - seen a little bit as the underdog - sneaked in and won the award for Best Actress at the Oscars.

Bening has won awards before, but Portman is new to the game and honestly gave the better performance. The Best Actress Oscar is Portman's award.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Well, seeing as how academy members get screeners of the nominated films, I am not sure if I agree with that.

Doesn't mean they watch them. My wife is a member of SAG. We get screeners. We watch the ones we want to. (Edited to add: Academy members don't vote for the Golden Globes. This is the Hollywood Foreign Press.)

Also: The Hollywood Foreign Press, well, let's just say they aren't exactly the most... how shall I say it? They aren't against a little bit of corruption. In other words, they are star fuckers.

That said, I do think Portman's win actually speaks to the larger issue of QUALITY roles for women. And I think it also helped that Comedy and Drama are split categories. I don't think she will be picking up an Oscar when she will be competing with Annette Benning.

I must disagree further. I think the voters make informed decisions, and sometimes sway against public opinion. Judging by your logic, Johnny Depp should have walked away with a Best Actor in a Comedy award last night, but Paul Giamatti walked away with the award instead.

Natalie Portman isn't even that big of a star, at least compared to Nicole Kidman. However, even though I haven't seen all of the nominated films and performances for Best Actress, I would say that Natalie Portman gave them a run for their money. Her performance in Black Swan was extraordinary and deserves every bit the recognition it so rightfully will and will continue to receive.

Also, while I'm sure it will definitely become Natalie Portman vs. Annette Bening at the Oscars this year, Portman has the most momentum and I believe she will win. It will be similar to Sandra Bullock and Meryl Streep. Streep was rumored to win, and had early momentum, but Bullock - seen a little bit as the underdog - sneaked in and won the award for Best Actress at the Oscars.

Bening has won awards before, but Portman is new to the game and honestly gave the better performance. The Best Actress Oscar is Portman's award.

Bening has been nominated for Oscar's, but has never won, so they might want to give it to her for that reason.

And I never said anything that said Depp would WIN, merely, that he would come and add GLAMOR to the event. Hell, how many times in the broadcast did they cut to Jolie and Pitt? To Depp? Nikki Finke I think describes the HFPA pretty well here. (Scroll to the bottom where she talks about the Background.)

I'm not trying to take anything away from Natalie Portman, I think she's a FANTASTIC actor--she was great in Closer. I DO think she was pretty dull and one note in Black Swan. And, again, I think this speaks more about the number of QUALITY film roles for women. Look at the other nominees in the category, Frankie and Alice and Winter's Bone didn't even get wide releases.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

I didn't find her dull and one note at all. Her character was severely ill and wound tight as a spool. It worked for me. She was trying to escape what she perceived as suffocating forces in her life.

Speaking of--Natalie looked stunning with that upswept hair in that soft pink dress with the rose appliqué. Pregnant or not, she's a stunner. She reminds me of Liz Taylor in her prime or of Audrey Hepburn. Unlike Olivia Wilde who wore that ball gown and wore straight hair and bangs like she was a teenage kid. It works on Halle Stenfield, not on a grown woman in a ball gown.

 

[Professor Zoom]

I didn't find her dull and one note at all. Her character was severely ill and wound tight as a spool. It worked for me. She was trying to escape what she perceived as suffocating forces in her life.

Ill at the beginning, ill all the way through, so, for me, boring because there was no journey, or not much of one.

AND, I would argue she wasn't at ALL trying to escape the suffocating forces in her life. She was diving head first into those things.

If her action was to escape the suffocating forces, why didn't she quit the ballet? Move out? It wasn't about someone trying to escape suffocating forces, it was about a woman obsessing and being consumed by a role.

Speaking of--Natalie looked stunning with that upswept hair in that soft pink dress with the rose appliqué. Pregnant or not, she's a stunner. She reminds me of Liz Taylor in her prime or of Audrey Hepburn. Unlike Olivia Wilde who wore that ball gown and wore straight hair and bangs like she was a teenage kid. It works on Halle Stenfield, not on a grown woman in a ball gown.

Natalie ALWAYS looks classy and stunning. Just wonderful.

 

[gblews]

And, I would much rather followed Kunis's character, I LIKED her, and watch HER go insane.

Watching someone already tightly wound get MORE tightly wound isn't all that interesting.

The one part of your post I kind of agree with; I liked Lilly too.

But an obviously well adjusted person with very few self esteem issues and loads of self confidence is pretty easy to like - especially when they look like Mila Kunis.

To me, it would have been really unrealistic for Lilly come apart the way Nina did. Lilly appeared to be too strong a personality to allow this to happen to her - especially just because of the "pressure" of dancing Swan Lake.

It made more sense to have the obviously already disturbed and fragile Nina lose what was left of her tenuous hold on reality under pressure not just from the dance company leader, but the pressure she placed on herself to be perfect. It wasn't just the pressure of the dance that sent Nina over edge, but also her obsession with perfection AND the pressure applied by her mother. Lilly didn't have this added baggage.

To come as unglued as Nina did the character had to already be disturbed, otherwise her level of psychosis at the end would make no sense.

I liked the movie a lot. It was way better than I thought it would be.

 

[Professor Zoom]

And, I would much rather followed Kunis's character, I LIKED her, and watch HER go insane.

Watching someone already tightly wound get MORE tightly wound isn't all that interesting.

The one part of your post I kind of agree with; I liked Lilly too.

But an obviously well adjusted person with very few self esteem issues and loads of self confidence is pretty easy to like - especially when they look like Mila Kunis.

To me, it would have been really unrealistic for Lilly come apart the way Nina did. Lilly appeared to be too strong a personality to allow this to happen to her - especially just because of the "pressure" of dancing Swan Lake.

It made more sense to have the obviously already disturbed and fragile Nina lose what was left of her tenuous hold on reality under pressure not just from the dance company leader, but the pressure she placed on herself to be perfect. It wasn't just the pressure of the dance that sent Nina over edge, but also her obsession with perfection AND the pressure applied by her mother. Lilly didn't have this added baggage.

To come as unglued as Nina did the character had to already be disturbed, otherwise her level of psychosis at the end would make no sense.

I liked the movie a lot. It was way better than I thought it would be.

I agree that Lily as written wouldn't come apart. But, I would have the confidence and the personality being a cover for a sea of fear, self-loathing, and mental instability.

I've known actors like that. When i was in grad school the one graduate actor with the most outgoing personality, gung ho attitude, was the one that snapped from the pressure and dropped out after a month.

I just feel like it gives some where for the story to go. Obviously disturbed going more disturbed isn't as interesting of a journey, as someone who SEEMS altogether coming apart at the seams when push comes to shove.

I'm thinking of the Kevin Kline character in Sophie's Choice... who seems alright, but...

 

[Dorian Thompson]

I liked the movie a lot. It was way better than I thought it would be.

Me as well. I wasn't expecting much. My mother suggested the movie. Very pleasantly surprised. It was a tragedy playing out, a deterioration right in front of our eyes.

 

[gblews]

To come as unglued as Nina did the character had to already be disturbed, otherwise her level of psychosis at the end would make no sense.

I liked the movie a lot. It was way better than I thought it would be.

I agree that Lily as written wouldn't come apart. But, I would have the confidence and the personality being a cover for a sea of fear, self-loathing, and mental instability.

In other words, Nina, but without the facade of stability.

I just feel like it gives some where for the story to go. Obviously disturbed going more disturbed isn't as interesting of a journey, as someone who SEEMS altogether coming apart at the seams when push comes to shove.

I understand, but what you describe wouldn't have been so much a journey as it would have been simply a glimpse of who the character really is behind the mask.

This may have been interesting too, but I liked the idea of picking Nina up from towards the end of her "journey" to insanity. It made for more spectacular drama. No doubt the back story we're not shown is the run up to right before the selection of the lead dancer, which if the movie had been longer we might have seen in all of it's hallucinatory glory. However, I agree with Jackson that the length of the movie was just about perfect.

BTW, I definitely thought Nina's mother totally loved her, but she was as screwed up as Nina was.

Also, did Nina stab Beth with the nail file? Anyone?

Finally, I thought Nina died at the end.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

People think she didn't die at the end? That's news to me.

 

[stj]

Either everything after the early scene when she was told Veronica got the role, or everything after the fall in the first act of the debut, is imaginary. Maybe. That's one reason why it's hard to rate this quite so highly. Anyhow, if Lily went on in the second act, Nina broke the mirror and stabbed herself in the dressing room. She was stopping up her own blood with the towel, I suppose.

 

[gblews]

People think she didn't die at the end? That's news to me.

Well yeah, I thought it was pretty obvious too, but there are one or two posts further up thread that appear to be a bit confused about what happened at the end.

 

[Gaith]

Food for thought from one of my favorite bloggers, Tom Shone:

Are actors turning into their own special effects?

Drifting off to sleep the other night, I found myself mulling over Natalie Portman's performance in Black Swan, as one does, trying to figure out what was behind our current demand for physical self-transformation in our actors. By 'recent' I mean 'the last thirty years', the vogue dating back, as far as I can make out to De Niro's widely reported weight gain in Raging Bull. Actors had transformed themselves for parts before of course, but not to that degree, or such PR effect. Thereafter, it became par for the course for actors to cough up their altered vital statistics a sign of their 'commitment' to a part, and awards worthiness, in actual, measurable column inches.

Then it came to me: in the era of digital effects, actors have had to transform themselves into a kind of special effect. Raging Bull, remember, came out just three years after Star Wars, the film that first thrust America cinema into hyper-space, spearheading the effects revolution whose ripple effects are still being felt today. It's almost as if De Niro and Scorsese had, on some instinctive level, taken stock of the new landscape, thought about how they could compete and decided there was nothing for it: if they were going to centre a movie around a performance, they were going to have to really hunker down, order in the klieg lights, and put on a show to equal that of the exploding death star at the end of Lucas's space epic. Only it would be De Niro doing the ballooning.

Cut to: thirty years of actors quite literally making spectacles of themselves. They're not acting so much as morphing. Think of the language critics use to praise performance these days — "immersive," "transformative", "revelatory," "as you've never seen her before" — and you realise how much it echoes the way we talk about special effects, and how both subscribe to the oldest maxim in show business: show 'em something new.

 

[stj]

People think she didn't die at the end? That's news to me.

Well yeah, I thought it was pretty obvious too, but there are one or two posts further up thread that appear to be a bit confused about what happened at the end.

I'm afraid that if you're certain what happened at the end, then you're the one who's confused. The ostensible ending is that she stabbed herself with a shard of glass just before the Swan Queen throws herself off the (stage) cliff, onto the offstage mattress.

Skipping over such questionable things as a single mattress for the stunt or the remarkable speed with which an abdominal wound kills, the fact remains: It was impossible for her to have danced that entire act with a piece of broken mirror in hand, or anywhere else. Something impossible in a scene could and should mark it as a dream or hallucination.

One of the scriptwriters probably wrote a sensible mode of death but the director (aka the dude that screws up the script) probably ordered another writer to monkey around. By and large, the movie actually has to be written before such gross errors and misjudgments can be made. This movie is more of a director's movie, being so short on dialogue, but the Aronofsky's contribution still doesn't substitute for a story. Which is the writer's job.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I thought it was consensus that Lily was Nina...Nina's mind had broken down so much that she created her to cope with her stress and outside pressures from her mom.

 

[David cgc]

I'm afraid that if you're certain what happened at the end, then you're the one who's confused. The ostensible ending is that she stabbed herself with a shard of glass just before the Swan Queen throws herself off the (stage) cliff, onto the offstage mattress.

My reading was that Nina stabbed herself when she hallucinated Lily taking over the role and imagined killing her with the broken mirror (not sure if it was deliberate or if it happened accidentally when she broke the mirror, since we didn't see how that part happened in objective reality). She didn't see the wound until after she'd finished the black swan part and found Lily wasn't actually dead. She'd been wearing the black costume, which hid the blood. Then she went and did the show anyway, and it wasn't until the final moments of the ballet that she succumbed to the wound.

I'm pretty sure we saw her bleeding in the dressing room after the reveal that she hadn't really killed Lily, so she had to already have been injured before she went back on stage for the finale.

I thought it was consensus that Lily was Nina...Nina's mind had broken down so much that she created her to cope with her stress and outside pressures from her mom.

I kept going back and forth on this while watching the movie, but in the end, it seemed clear that Lily was real, or, rather, there was really a girl called Lily. Granted, you can make varying arguments for how many of her scenes were hallucinations on the part of Nina (aside from the obvious stuff, like the end of their girls' night out, being stabbed to death, and getting it on with the director backstage), but she definitely was a person that existed, even if Nina mapped all of her insecurities onto her and transformed her into a boogyman.

 

[Professor Zoom]

I'm afraid that if you're certain what happened at the end, then you're the one who's confused. The ostensible ending is that she stabbed herself with a shard of glass just before the Swan Queen throws herself off the (stage) cliff, onto the offstage mattress.

My reading was that Nina stabbed herself when she hallucinated Lily taking over the role and imagined killing her with the broken mirror (not sure if it was deliberate or if it happened accidentally when she broke the mirror, since we didn't see how that part happened in objective reality). She didn't see the wound until after she'd finished the black swan part and found Lily wasn't actually dead. She'd been wearing the black costume, which hid the blood. Then she went and did the show anyway, and it wasn't until the final moments of the ballet that she succumbed to the wound.

I'm pretty sure we saw her bleeding in the dressing room after the reveal that she hadn't really killed Lily, so she had to already have been injured before she went back on stage for the finale.

I thought it was consensus that Lily was Nina...Nina's mind had broken down so much that she created her to cope with her stress and outside pressures from her mom.

I kept going back and forth on this while watching the movie, but in the end, it seemed clear that Lily was real, or, rather, there was really a girl called Lily. Granted, you can make varying arguments for how many of her scenes were hallucinations on the part of Nina (aside from the obvious stuff, like the end of their girls' night out, being stabbed to death, and getting it on with the director backstage), but she definitely was a person that existed, even if Nina mapped all of her insecurities onto her and transformed her into a boogyman.

Agreed. I never thought Lily wasn't real. Some things Lily did weren't real--like the sex scene...