Spoilers Black Panther grade and discussion thread

[Locutus of Bored]

(Not a rebuttal but an observation)

I did my MA thesis on historical feature films and the issue of accuracy was a central discussion point. Short version: accuracy always comes second to drama/storytelling structure (no surprise); inaccuracies are not inherent disqualifiers in terms of the validity of the overall historical points/arguments made by a film (raised some eyebrows on my committee but my oral defence was persuasive); sometimes a less accurate film account is more effective than a “completely accurate” one (film or other format) at presenting an historical truth (also raised some hackles at the defence).

Historical feature films should make an effort at avoiding gross distortions (though on occasion such distortions can be effective) but accuracy should not be the first criterion used to judge such productions. Film provides an opportunity to supplement more traditional sources of historical knowledge that should not be cavalierly dismissed over accuracy. Even bad historical feature films (bad as history) can provide valuable teaching moments.

At some point I’ll see these two films (I occasionally teach post-Reconstruction US survey courses) and see if they can be useful.

I agree with you in general regarding the importance of historical accuracy in film not outweighing the storytelling and overall message, it's just that in this specific case it was rather ironic in that the understandable criticisms Lee (and others) were leveling at Green Book, and that Lee was willing to try and walk out of the Oscars over (apart from wanting to win himself), could also apply to his film.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Did he object to the inaccuracy or the alleged “white saviour” tropes of Green Book, though?

 

[Ovation]

I agree with you in general regarding the importance of historical accuracy in film not outweighing the storytelling and overall message, it's just that in this specific case it was rather ironic in that the understandable criticisms Lee (and others) were leveling at Green Book, and that Lee was willing to try and walk out of the Oscars over (apart from wanting to win himself), could also apply to his film.

I’m not aware of Lee’s specific objections about Green Book (I expect they have to do with White Saviour Syndrome) but if he’s also calling out the film for historical distortions, then perhaps he should dial it down (Malcolm X, while a powerful film, is not free of inaccuracies—and if the Rolling Stone piece is correct, neither is his latest effort).

But as you noted, an interesting conversation—something that historical feature films can be very good at generating, flaws and all (and the primary reason they remain a research subject of interest to me).

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Did he object to the inaccuracy or the alleged “white saviour” tropes of Green Book, though?

Probably a little of column a and a little of column b (and a lot of not wanting to lose). He mostly just tried to walk out of the auditorium when Green Book won, said "the refs made a bad call", and that "every time someone else is driving the car I lose."

But the crux of Boots Riley's criticism of Blackkklansman was that it played on the same tropes by glossing over the role of law enforcement in promoting white supremacy and instead making them the savior, and that it also wasn't accurate to the events of Stallworth's book or history.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I far much preferred The Hate U Give over both Blackkklansman and Green Book and I think it should've gotten nominated instead of Green Book. But then, it's not a historical, rather t's a fictional take on all of the awful shit of right now, so that probably scared the Academy shitless.

 

[thribs]

Historical inaccuracies, white savior tropes, and feel-good approaches on racism in the 60s. Among many other issues.

Sounds like a good movie to me.

 

[ichab]

I'm thrilled to see Black Panther get the Best Picture nomination, but this always confuses me, how can a movie be the best picture, but not have the best director, the best script, or any of the best actors/actresses? If a movie is the best overall movie, wouldn't at least a few of those things also be the best of the year? It's kind of hard to have the best picture without it having the best director, script, and/or cast.
This is not a rip on Black Panther, I've seen this happen with other movie in the past and it's always really confused me.

A movie is the sum of it's parts. Its very possible to like one movie the most while acknowledging that the direction or script was better on another. IMO, Forest Gump deserved best picture, but I thought Tarantino did a better job directing in Pulp Fiction. His direction brought out the best in Travolta, Thurman, Jackson Willis, heck, everyone in the cast. And he did it on a budget of far less than Zemekis had.

Honestly, the Oscars have never made sense to me, but let's be honest, calling something the best will always be subjective. The problem is that the people who make these decisions always tend to favor dramas, musicals, period pieces and sometimes comedy. That's why a trendsetting movie like Star Wars can lose best picture to a forgetful movie like Annie Hall. I only pay to see movies a couple times a year. And if I'm going to pay $15.00 to see a movie it's going to have to be big stuff like sci-fi, fantasy or horror which are three genres that almost never get recognition for the big prizes. So when the nominees are announced, chances are I haven't seen any of them.

 

[gblews]

Honestly, the Oscars have never made sense to me, but let's be honest, calling something the best will always be subjective. The problem is that the people who make these decisions always tend to favor dramas, musicals, period pieces and sometimes comedy. That's why a trendsetting movie like Star Wars can lose best picture to a forgetful movie like Annie Hall.

No, comedies virtually never get recognized by the Academy. The "forgetful" Anne Hall was one of the few exceptions close to 50 years ago. Maybe you understand Academy voters better than you think.

For the record, I thought Annie Hall was brilliant.

 

[JD]

I loved how impishly gleeful he was at his "cup of tea" joke.

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It's interesting though with so many people blowing off awards shows as worthless and meaningless just how much Spike Lee seems to genuinely want to be recognized by the Academy and seems to genuinely feel their opinion has some validity.

I think it's mostly just regular people who don't care about the Oscars as much anymore, most of the people in the movie industry still seem to take them pretty seriously.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I'm thrilled to see Black Panther get the Best Picture nomination, but this always confuses me, how can a movie be the best picture, but not have the best director, the best script, or any of the best actors/actresses? If a movie is the best overall movie, wouldn't at least a few of those things also be the best of the year? It's kind of hard to have the best picture without it having the best director, script, and/or cast.
This is not a rip on Black Panther, I've seen this happen with other movie in the past and it's always really confused me.

There's a tendency, especially in recent years, to want to spread the wealth among several Oscar-worthy films instead of just having one film sweep all the major awards. So they'll split the difference and give one film Best Picture, another one Best Director, another one Best Screenplay, another one Best Actor/Actress, and so on down the line. That way fewer people feel left out of the awards and the audience can enjoy the idea of their favored film winning something, in theory. There's still usually some overlap with one or more films picking up a few awards, but the spread the wealth pattern has been more common lately than the full sweep, just from my (unverified) observation.

 

[GailFrederick]

I liked the film completely and the task that was provided for the audience completed greatly. Soe emotions were rather positive.