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bin Laden not armed - was it right to shoot him anyways?

Should've added a poll to the thread. I always wanted to see a 100% mandate from the masses.

I also say it was right to shoot him. My only regret would be not being able to do it myself.
 
Details are still sketchy, but they probably blared on a loudspeaker that anyone in the compound who wanted to survive should lie stomach-down on the ground and wait to be cuffed. An apparently unarmed man could still have (say) a grenade or other explosive/detonator up his sleeve, or easy access to a concealed weapon.

Particularly given the combat nature of the situation, anyone not following these instructions - as bin Laden was apparently not doing (duh) - was committing one of the most evocative phrases of modern times, "suicide by cop". Did the SEALs really try to get him alive? Doesn't sound like it, for obvious and sound reasons, but so long as he was standing up, he was fair game.
 
I said it elsewhere. If he could have been captured, he would of been (and possibly still reported as killed to avoid a legal circus and nutcases coming out of the woodwork for his release).
I think the mission was to kill him, not to capture him.
I think the US military most likely has plenty non lethal weapons which to use to subdue somebody without killing him, if they really would have wanted to do so. And I doubt capturing him would have caused anymore victims than the revenge attacks because of his death will.

I am not sad that Bin Laden is dead..it is for the most part a positive development in the fight against terror.
I just hope the White House comes clean with all the details, so we 100 percent sure know of hows and whys?

Details are still sketchy..
They surely are, but that could be partly because there was so much info coming in.
They should release some photos of the corpse of Bin Laden, so we can but the end of the speculations and conspiracy theories.

Here is still link to BBCs Mark Mardells excellent blog post about the changing story of the Bin Ladens death and he also tackles the difference between US and European reactions:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/05/the_white_house_has_had.html
 
I said it elsewhere. If he could have been captured, he would of been (and possibly still reported as killed to avoid a legal circus and nutcases coming out of the woodwork for his release).
I think the mission was to kill him, not to capture him.
I think the US military most likely has plenty non lethal weapons which to use to subdue somebody without killing him, if they really would have wanted to do so. And I doubt capturing him would have caused anymore victims than the revenge attacks because of his death will.

I am not sad that Bin Laden is dead..it is for the most part a positive development in the fight against terror.
I just hope the White House comes clean with all the details, so we 100 percent sure know of hows and whys?

Details are still sketchy..
They surely are, but that could be partly because there was so much info coming in.
They should release some photos of the corpse of Bin Laden, so we can but the end of the speculations and conspiracy theories.

Here is still link to BBCs Mark Mardells excellent blog post about the changing story of the Bin Ladens death and he also tackles the difference between US and European reactions:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/05/the_white_house_has_had.html

Evidence doesn't end conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theories thrive on "the other", so no matter who releases what, there will always be some conspiracy about whether or not Bin Laden was actually killed, because "they" won't want you to know the "truth".
 
And I doubt capturing him would have caused anymore victims than the revenge attacks because of his death will.

I don't know about that. Bin Laden getting killed is a one-time thing, and even the people who are very angry about it will eventually get over it and move on to something else to be angry about.
If Bin Laden had been arrested, the problem would be ongoing for months, maybe years with maybe hostages takes (and decapitated) to demand his release, threats and bombings etc; the whole spectacle around the trial with various nutjobs like that Islam4UK clown getting a platform on tv and lots of attention etc.
 
they should've just dropped a couple of Paveways on the place and then sent in the SEALs to check the corpses.

actually, no, that's not fair on the kids who were there and might not grow up to be murdering terrorist shits.

so, sending in SEAL Team 6 and capping the fucker?

'Tango down' is all i gotta say.
 
I don't really care if he had his trousers down and he was on the loo, he needed killing though I would of prefered a slow painful death.
 
Even putting aside the notion of justice, I think he was just too big a figure to take prisoner.

A captured Osama bin Laden means a hostage situation within weeks. We may have threats of reprisals now, but hostages abroad would have been a certainty.

So the law is suspended when one has to fear backlash?

What about the backlash that will certainly come because of his death (we don't even know how big it will be, but let's imagine for a second it's again a huge plot with another 3000+ deaths)? Does that mean they should have let him live in that hotel, because someone might get angry?




I do guess that - if the order was to capture Bin Laden alive, and if Bin Laden was truly unarmed - the soldier who shot him got at least a little bit into trouble. He's a soldier, can't ignore direct orders just because he feels like it.
 
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Did he raise his hands and say, "I surrender! Dont shoot!" and order his guards to lay down their weapons and anyone in front of him to move aside?

I think this is the pertinent question.

Osama bin Laden was essentially waging a private war against the United States. And in war, only those who lay down their arms and surrender must be spared.

You can kill an enemy combatant when he's unarmed. You can kill him when his back is turned, and he's running away. You can kill him when he's asleep. You don't even have to give him a chance to surrender. That's the risk you take when you go to war: you make yourself a legitimate target, twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week.

In fact--soldiers expend a lot of time and effort arranging situations in which they can kill their enemies at no risk to themselves--in which their enemies can't fight back effectively. They attack from the flank, or from behind. They attack from ambush, by surprise. They snipe from under cover, at a distance. That's how you stay alive in war. That's how you win.

So: unless Osama bin Laden ordered his defenders to stop resisting, put up his hands, and said "I surrender," the SEAL who shot him did nothing wrong. In the absence of those three factors, any attempt to capture him alive would have been supererogatory--morally praiseworthy, perhaps, but hardly morally obligatory.
 
Once you accept the essential moral validity of sending an assassination squad into a sovereign country's territory, the little detail of whether the target happens to be armed or not is a mere trifle. The moral bottleneck, so it speak, is already navigated before you get to that stage.

I didn't have a problem with assassinating Bin Laden before I knew he was unarmed, so I don't now that I know he was unarmed. He signed his own death warrant when he declared war on the West and waged it through force of arms.

Thanks for the reply and to everyone else. The consensus seems to be that people have zero issues with an assassination provided that person is 'evil enough,' to justify it.

I'm not sure I 100% believe in that doctrine because the slippery slope to such a belief system would also justify many different criminals assassination provided that their crimes were heinous enough.

bin Laden seems to be some sort of 'special case' for most people when it comes to this but how can we as a civil society make exceptions?
 
supererogatory--morally praiseworthy, perhaps, but hardly morally obligatory.
Ah, so that was the word young Spock was defining! :alienblush:

Thanks for the reply and to everyone else. The consensus seems to be that people have zero issues with an assassination provided that person is 'evil enough,' to justify it.
Wow, you win the prize for asking the question, reading the answers, AND COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT. What the fuck, man. What the fuck.
 
Bin Laden is not a special case at all. And it has nothing to with how 'evil' he was.

There are basically two ways to deal with terrorists and insurgents--that is to say, with people who wage war, but not under the authority of a recognized sovereign state. You can deal with them as criminals, who are subject to criminal law. Or you can treat them as soldiers, who are subject to the laws of war.

Each approach has its advantages and disadvantages. If you criminalize terrorists and insurgents, for example, you deny them legitimacy. If you treat terrorism and insurgency as a military problem, by contrast, you loosen the rules of engagement considerably, as I described above.

I used to believe that terrorists and insurgents should be treated as criminals, but lately I've swung around to the opposite view. I think they should be taken at their word, and treated as soldiers waging war. And insurgencies should be treated as what they are: a contest for political power, and for the monopoly of authorized violence.

The advantages of this approach are numerous. You can use much greater force against insurgents and terrorists if you treat them as an enemy in war. You aren't obligated to try to capture them. You can detain them indefinitely, without charge, as prisoners of war, until their "government" surrenders. Since they generally violate the laws of war anyway, you can still prosecute them for their war crimes if you want, when it's all over. And since they see themselves as soldiers anyway, they can hardly complain about being treated like soldiers.

On the government side, military forces are under military law and discipline, and less likely to commit atrocities than police and paramilitary forces. And discipline is absolutely crucial in this kind of asymmetric warfare.

There are only two ways to defeat terrorists and insurgents: by wholesale massacre and counter-terror, the way the French Revolutionaries crushed the Vendee; and by slow attrition, the way the British wore down the IRA in Northern Ireland. Wholesale massacre and terror are obviously not acceptable. That leaves attrition--which requires iron discipline in the face of insurgent and terrorist provocation.

In addition, by treating captured insurgents and terrorists as POWs, instead of treating them like criminals, you can also make the conflict less atrocious by not provoking reprisals from the enemy in response to the mistreatment of their prisoners.

It also eliminates arguments like this, about whether or not terrorists should be captured or killed. If they surrender, they should be captured. If they don't, they should be killed. If they want to wage war, then let it be war--on both sides.

supererogatory--morally praiseworthy, perhaps, but hardly morally obligatory.
Ah, so that was the word young Spock was defining! :alienblush:

Cool word, eh?
 
Even putting aside the notion of justice, I think he was just too big a figure to take prisoner.

A captured Osama bin Laden means a hostage situation within weeks. We may have threats of reprisals now, but hostages abroad would have been a certainty.

So the law is suspended when one has to fear backlash?

What about the backlash that will certainly come because of his death (we don't even know how big it will be, but let's imagine for a second it's again a huge plot with another 3000+ deaths)? Does that mean they should have let him live in that hotel, because someone might get angry?




I do guess that - if the order was to capture Bin Laden alive, and if Bin Laden was truly unarmed - the soldier who shot him got at least a little bit into trouble. He's a soldier, can't ignore direct orders just because he feels like it.

I'm not a top-ranking official, so I don't have all of the facts. I know that doesn't stop most of the Internet from giving its opinion, but it puts mine to a halt on this issue.

My main concern as a human being is that as few innocent people as possible are hurt. There may be reprisals, but the snake might die without a head, too.

But if he were captured and put on trial, there certainly would have been innocents taken hostage, somewhere.
 
they should've just dropped a couple of Paveways on the place and then sent in the SEALs to check the corpses.

actually, no, that's not fair on the kids who were there and might not grow up to be murdering terrorist shits.

so, sending in SEAL Team 6 and capping the fucker?

'Tango down' is all i gotta say.

Dude, great av!
 
Once you accept the essential moral validity of sending an assassination squad into a sovereign country's territory, the little detail of whether the target happens to be armed or not is a mere trifle. The moral bottleneck, so it speak, is already navigated before you get to that stage.

I didn't have a problem with assassinating Bin Laden before I knew he was unarmed, so I don't now that I know he was unarmed. He signed his own death warrant when he declared war on the West and waged it through force of arms.

Thanks for the reply and to everyone else. The consensus seems to be that people have zero issues with an assassination provided that person is 'evil enough,' to justify it.

I don't really understand how you paraphrased my post into that summary of my position. I've highlighted the relevant part of my original post again, to clarify.

As Goliath has commented more extensively, an enemy combatant does not need to be armed to be legally killed. They just need to still actively be at war (ie have not surrendered). We have nothing to suggest that Bin Laden surrendered therefore there is nothing legally wrong about killing him whilst being unarmed.

As I said, the much harder thing to justify is the unauthorised incursion into a sovereign state's territory. Fortunately, the Pakistani authorities gave a more blanket authorisation for US assets to operate within their borders a while ago (about the same time that Predator drone strikes began in Pakistan), so although this specific incursion wasn't specifically authorised, the Pakistani government had already ceded the broader principle.

Bottom line, this was legal under whatever permutation you look at it, provided Bin Laden did not unequivocally surrender. Whether it is "right" is semantically different from "legal" and I suppose depends upon your own internal moral compass, but in this case I think International Law has it about right.
 
there's a story in today's Mirror, saying bin Laden had a bodyguard (who they interviewed) who was given a pistol with two rounds in, BY OBL, and the bodyguard was told by OBL, 'if the Americans come and are going to capture me, i want you to shoot me in the head with that gun.'

bodyguard says he's glad it never came to him having to do it.

so, OBL was never going to be taken alive and my moral compass is pointing due 'Waste Him'.

Barack Obama enacted a RL version of the Ryan Doctrine.
 
The New York Police department has been involved in shootings more questionable than this one.
 
The New York Police department has been involved in shootings more questionable than this one.

:lol:

:techman:

Very true. But we aren't talking about shooting a black guy, Osama had much too light of a skin tone for the NYPD to shoot him. ;)
 
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