Was not letting them come home ever a realistic option for the producers? I highly doubt it. I think that even if the show had ended prematurely, they still would have gotten their way home, if only to let the series end on a happy note.
Biggest problem with "Voyager" is that they didn't really take any chances.
- Thread starter Jayson1
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Was not letting them come home ever a realistic option for the producers? I highly doubt it. I think that even if the show had ended prematurely, they still would have gotten their way home, if only to let the series end on a happy note.
Voyager was not in the Delta Quadrant to soak up the local culture. She was on a forward trajectory, leaving territories, feuds, and various political environments behind her. They had at the start an expectation of decades to get home. Sure they were going to explore and replenish along the way, take a few chances, but they were not on specific Federation missions with longstanding familiar adversaries and allies. They did not have backup. Voyager took on Neelix and he shared with them as much of the Delta Quadrant he knew, but it was inevitable Voyager was going to meet different aliens along the way, aliens even Neelix was new to.
If you've invested in a series, and they call it a series for a reason, where there is an ongoing goal it needs to have some resolution. So many do not do that. It must have been a blow for Enterprise viewers to be cut off. DS9 just plain lost the plot at the end, it was dreary. However Voyager had a clear beginning and end in its goal alone. Like it or not, I appreciate we as an audience were given a rounded story. I remember watching LOST and getting very nervous it was not going to be given its full run.
If you've invested in a series, and they call it a series for a reason, where there is an ongoing goal it needs to have some resolution. So many do not do that. It must have been a blow for Enterprise viewers to be cut off. DS9 just plain lost the plot at the end, it was dreary. However Voyager had a clear beginning and end in its goal alone. Like it or not, I appreciate we as an audience were given a rounded story. I remember watching LOST and getting very nervous it was not going to be given its full run.
Not every series ends on a "happy note". You can still have a satisifying even if it's more of a downer ending.
Well... it could have unfolded where only part of the crew makes it back, with Voyager destroyed. And rather than it being just a few crew members having suffered a lot (like Tuvok), you have it where Janeway and just a few others make it back... giving Admiral Janeway all the more reason to want to violate the Prime Directive and get everyone home.
Imagine Voyager has that last encounter with the Borg with the transwarp conduit structure in place. The ship ends up in a battle. A borg sphere suffers damage, making its shields non-functional and some kind of bizarre discharge in the sphere's electrical system shorts out the collective communication conduits, rendering the drones inert. Janeway leaves Chakotay in charge of Voyager while she, Seven, Tom Paris, and a few others beam over to the sphere to see if they can commandeer it. And they do. Now they've got two ships to help with the battle. But Voyager ends up crippled. And then it appears they're doomed. Hundreds of Borg suddenly materialize on board and assimilate the entire crew in minutes. Janeway has no choice. They take the Borg sphere into the transwarp conduit and head for home. They make it through, and they set off a charge to decimate that end of the transwarp conduit, so more Borg vessels can't follow. So, they make it home, but... with significant losses. I could have seen this as a plausible ending. Heart wrenching, knowing so many beloved characters didn't make it. But, an ending many people weren't expecting.
^Series in general don't need to, no, but all trek series that saw their end coming (i.e. all series except TOS and perhaps TAS) tried to give it a happy ending, even if it contained some downer elements as well. Winning the Dominion war, founding the Federation, coming home after 7 years in the Delta quadrant. Perhaps TNG can be said to maintain the status quo, but even there the series ends with Picard saving the day and finally playing poker with his senior officers.
Yes, it could have been plausible. But I still highly doubt the producers would have dared to do it. People today probably still would be complaining that it was a big f*** you to the fans, the same way they are still complaining about the ENT finale (but for different reasons).
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It's the kind of premise that you shove more and more into the background while a different plot takes over.
IE, they discover some big Galaxy threatening event is occurring where they are and they can't just run away because it'll reach the Federation soon and they won't be able to warn anyone in time. So they choose to stay and help stop whatever is happening/form a Delta Federation to protect the Alpha Quadrant (and the Galaxy) from destruction. They find a way to get back home via a Wormhole Device they find but realize they can't stay while whatever it is is still out there and have to sacrifice their time home to get back in the fight.
The series finale has them winning in the end, but maybe the Wormhole Machine they used was destroyed and they decide that it was a worthy sacrifice to give up their chance of being home if it means that home will still exist and make new lives in the Delta Federation they created.
I had no problem with them getting home. A tragic ending would not really fit well with the type of show it was. I even felt the series final was intresting but it did highlight the show's strength's and it's flaws.
Strength's was having two Janeway's in the episode and the future stuff is kind of fun. The Borg had been kind of ruined by this point by the show but they were okay compared to some other ways they had been used and it was kind of neat seeing the Borg Queen fall apart I also like that Torres gave birth.
Flaw's was getting the ship home in the final and especially in the final moments ruins all the drama of them coming home and sort of bringing a coda to the series. I think fans would want to see them meet their families and also see what is going to be next in their lives. The future stuff is fun but the fact that is erased takes away any sense of closure that a glimpse into the future should have.
Chacota and Seven have no chemistry and it was set up even worst than the Word/Troi romance in it's final. It's ovious that Janeway and Chacota should get together or have some kind of closure on the whole idea. Tuvok's disease was also bad since we are supose to believe he has had it the entire time on the show.
Jason
Strength's was having two Janeway's in the episode and the future stuff is kind of fun. The Borg had been kind of ruined by this point by the show but they were okay compared to some other ways they had been used and it was kind of neat seeing the Borg Queen fall apart I also like that Torres gave birth.
Flaw's was getting the ship home in the final and especially in the final moments ruins all the drama of them coming home and sort of bringing a coda to the series. I think fans would want to see them meet their families and also see what is going to be next in their lives. The future stuff is fun but the fact that is erased takes away any sense of closure that a glimpse into the future should have.
Chacota and Seven have no chemistry and it was set up even worst than the Word/Troi romance in it's final. It's ovious that Janeway and Chacota should get together or have some kind of closure on the whole idea. Tuvok's disease was also bad since we are supose to believe he has had it the entire time on the show.
Jason
I think VOYAGER was the most compelling of the series, because they were underdogs & not necessarily the best of Starfleet. The need to get home and all alone in often unfriendly surroundings, is also compelling.
Here's a question: Why is one of the biggest criticisms from Trekkies- "not enough conflict between Maquis and Starfleet people"?
What kind of conflict exactly did you want? Are all these people suppose to be itching to brawl, or always ready for a shouting match? Are the Maquis a bunch of Live Wires, that upset about Starfleet, Ready to go ya? That gets old fast, and is irrational.
(Here's the problem: DS9 already proved that audience generally don't dig ongoing fictionalized hurt feelings: I.E.- Bajorans.)
It's the "bigger picture"- they're all in the same boat & need each other to get home. That's more compelling than a Maquis with a chip on his shoulder with, say, Tuvok over God knows why.
I think the producers of VOYAGER generally made good choices for the ongoing health of the series. Sure, some choices were headscratchers- like Chakotay getting with Seven instead of Janeway.
Here's a question: Why is one of the biggest criticisms from Trekkies- "not enough conflict between Maquis and Starfleet people"?
What kind of conflict exactly did you want? Are all these people suppose to be itching to brawl, or always ready for a shouting match? Are the Maquis a bunch of Live Wires, that upset about Starfleet, Ready to go ya? That gets old fast, and is irrational.
(Here's the problem: DS9 already proved that audience generally don't dig ongoing fictionalized hurt feelings: I.E.- Bajorans.)
It's the "bigger picture"- they're all in the same boat & need each other to get home. That's more compelling than a Maquis with a chip on his shoulder with, say, Tuvok over God knows why.
I think the producers of VOYAGER generally made good choices for the ongoing health of the series. Sure, some choices were headscratchers- like Chakotay getting with Seven instead of Janeway.
I can't speak for everyone but since this is the internet I will anyways. What we wanted was not for the focus of the conflict between starfleet/Maquis to be political because that would be unimportant in the DQ. What we wanted was to have two different groups at odds as to how to carrout a mission instead of always agreeing the starfleet way was better. A maquis for example might be more intrested in bending if not outright breaking laws and would have "street smarts" to use a modern phrase when dealing with the problems they would be facing. Also the Maquis could offer you characters who have more character flaws because they don't come from a safe PC type of Federation world.
I disagree with the Bajorans on DS9 because I really enjoyed them, especially in season 1 and 2 when they were still dealing with the aftermath of the Ocupation. Plus one of the strengths of DS9 was having characters like Kira,Odo,Quark, Garak etc who didn't see the world from the perspective of a starfleet officer or even a 24th century human. On "Voyager" I felt they actually did a good job with Torres so the main flaw was watering down Choctay and not using any of the other Maquis enough. Which I never understood because when we did see them I usually liked them such as Seska,Suder and the 4 people from "Learning Curve."
Jason
This is pretty much how I enjoyed the show. I would not have liked it with all the tweaks those who were dissatisfied with it wanted. It would have been a whole other show but without the supporting setting. Frankly Voyager redone as DS9 in the Delta Quadrant or Next Gen with the familiar politics and the same miserable feuds and mindsets might have been depressing.
I have this horrible mirror image of Voyager now with this stodgy Captain and a bitchy Chakotay grumbling their way through the Delta Quadrant. Every second episode would focus on repairs and maintenance, lol. Every third episode would be a running commentary on how a new shuttle was being constructed. Whole seasons Voyager would be stuck on tiresome planets learning alien cultures and getting deep into their politics. They would never get home,
In regards to the OP, I think it was yes and no. They never were going to do the long term story arcs but they were also the first to try it, with that Michael Jonas storyline in Season 2. People forget how big a deal that was back then, nothing like that had been tried in Trek before, and that was a year before DS9 did it's six episode arc in Season 6.
Also the Jonas storyline tied into what they were doing with Seska and Culla. Not to mention that stuff about Kazon were spreading lies about the Voyager crew. I really do think Pillar was trying to elevate "Voyager" beyond just being a TNG clone.
As for story arc's I never really considered DS9 a arc based show. To me that has always been somewhat incorrect. To me it was a show with strong continuity and a show willing to evolve characters when the right story came along. I don't think they had any master plan. The war could have just as easily ended at the end of the 6 episode DS9 ocupation stuff in season 6 if they wanted to do something new, but if they did do something new they would make it feel natural instead just trying to be a different show.
Jason
I agree with this. I didn't need any of the 40 minutes of air time used by watching some repairs being done or someone picking fruitI have this horrible mirror image of Voyager now with this stodgy Captain and a bitchy Chakotay grumbling their way through the Delta Quadrant. Every second episode would focus on repairs and maintenance, lol. Every third episode would be a running commentary on how a new shuttle was being constructed. Whole seasons Voyager would be stuck on tiresome planets learning alien cultures and getting deep into their politics. They would never get home,
Actually we got those episodes in "Deadlock" and the first season ep were we find out Seska is Cardissian. You talk about repairs and picking fruit as if it would be treated as a hobby instead of things that were a matter of life and death because their very lives depended on them. People want these things because it gives the crew more obstacles to overcome that is a little more intresting than the alien of the week showing up, make some threats and naturally get into a space battle that won't mean anything because there is nothing at stake. The aliens will be forgotten as will the reason they wanted to fight in the rest of the shows.
Jason
There's nothing wrong with wanting to see a show that avoids showing the necessary repairs, the scrounging for meagre resources, etc.
It's just that if you include the 'they have to survive all on their own in an unknown delta quadrant filled with hostile races!' part in a plot, you can raise certain expectations.
Suppose you make a series about colonists in America, ca 1600. But, you don't want it too be too depressing, so what do you show? You show the adventures of a woman going to the market, being swindled from her money. But happily, her neighbour sees it and help to set the records straight, the bad guys get what they deserve. Or you show how they invent a new way of cultivating crops. Hurray! Or how they are rehearsing for the yearly festival that is coming up. Or how that young couple in love finally get each other. Community life is happy, all in all.
But you don't show the indian raids, the epidemics, the failed harvests and that 40% of the villagers died the winter following that, or people who slowly lost all courage the colony would eventually work out, because that would be too depressing. You don't even show that they have to work 14 hours a day regularly just to make ends meet, because the land isn't as fertile as they thought. That would be too boring.
There's nothing wrong with enjoying a show like that. It's just that it's going to turn off another segment of viewers who don't want 'depressing' or 'boring', per se but do appreciate some degree of plausibility and realism in the depiction- to get some feel of what it actually would be like to be such a colonist (I know, it's ridiculous to use words like plausibility and realism in a trek context. But still.). There's nothing wrong with that , either. It's just having different expectations of the premise of the series.
It's just that if you include the 'they have to survive all on their own in an unknown delta quadrant filled with hostile races!' part in a plot, you can raise certain expectations.
Suppose you make a series about colonists in America, ca 1600. But, you don't want it too be too depressing, so what do you show? You show the adventures of a woman going to the market, being swindled from her money. But happily, her neighbour sees it and help to set the records straight, the bad guys get what they deserve. Or you show how they invent a new way of cultivating crops. Hurray! Or how they are rehearsing for the yearly festival that is coming up. Or how that young couple in love finally get each other. Community life is happy, all in all.
But you don't show the indian raids, the epidemics, the failed harvests and that 40% of the villagers died the winter following that, or people who slowly lost all courage the colony would eventually work out, because that would be too depressing. You don't even show that they have to work 14 hours a day regularly just to make ends meet, because the land isn't as fertile as they thought. That would be too boring.
There's nothing wrong with enjoying a show like that. It's just that it's going to turn off another segment of viewers who don't want 'depressing' or 'boring', per se but do appreciate some degree of plausibility and realism in the depiction- to get some feel of what it actually would be like to be such a colonist (I know, it's ridiculous to use words like plausibility and realism in a trek context. But still.). There's nothing wrong with that , either. It's just having different expectations of the premise of the series.
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Risks/Chances Voyager took:
-These are off the top of my head, but I've got a few.
-These are off the top of my head, but I've got a few.
- The setting- TNG did a lot of heavy lifting in terms of world building. DS9 & Voyager, as spin-offs would benefit from that, but Voyager had to start over in a sense. The show was always planned to be seven seasons, and the setting always changing. They had to keep coming up with new alien races/characters and could not very often fall back on old ones. This "Odyssey" format is a writing challenge already, let alone 26 hour-long episodes per year for 7 years.
- Captain Janeway- Yes, we've heard this all before, but I have something to add. The producer's of Voyager no doubt knew there would be some fan backlash when they presented the main character, the captain, as a female. It seems however, to have been worse than anticipated, with Trekkies sending in so much hatemail, including death threats. However, what I feel was very smart and sophisticated, was the way Janeway/Voyager was written in this regard. She's presented as the captain, and that's the end of it. She's not waging a battle against sexism. There's no overcompensating. Try to find a Network show, even today, that addresses feminism topics how Voyager does, by not addressing it at all-It's just a given. The most we get is probably Q poking fun by calling her "Madame Captain."
- Seven of Nine- Now I know you're thinking that this wasn't a risk at all, but adding a new main character is always a risk. When DS9 was looking to boost/recover ratings, they brought in Worf; an established character who was already one of the most popular among fans. When Voyager wanted to do likewise, they didn't have that option(unless they wrote something really contrived.) They brought in an entirely new character...and it paid off. Janeway and Seven are probably the most iconic characters from Voyager in pop culture.
- Risky Episodes- There were some risky episodes. One that immediately comes to mind is Bride of Chaotica. An throwback in black & white, with super cheesy dialogue. Can you imagine if something went wrong here? It would be hated worse than Threshold. Captain proton was also introduced in Night and seen again in 30 days so that this episode didn't come out of the blue. And what happened? It paid off. It's now an iconic fan favorite.
- Episodes focused on unknown characters- I can think of a few episodes that don't really feature the main cast, where the writers have to establish an entire alien culture, and let them carry the episode. A perfect example of this is Distant Origin. It's really amazing how developed the Voth are after a single episode. Living Witness is another one, as is Dragon's Teeth. Or how about Pathfinder, an episode that doesn't feature the Voyager cast and where "Lt. Broccali" gets more attention and development than he ever had on TNG. Dwight Schultz does an amazing job, and carries the show. There's a very emotional moment at the end. EDIT: Or how about Message in a Bottle. How's that for taking chances...a whole hour of watching Andy Dick.
- Episodes that are very dark for Trek or a family show- There are a few Voyager episodes that are pretty dark, such as Revulsion, or The Thaw. Or perhaps Equinox, where Janeway tortures(or almost tortures)a crewman. Or episodes that deal with very complex, dark emotions, like Extreme Risk.
To me, keeping the whole 'Starfleet' feel as if there were just days away from a starbase didn't work for me. It took away from the desperation of their drive to get home. The show should have showed a progression of things getting more lax in ship operations and the challenge to Janeway was to keep it from turning into complete despair. This probably would have been too much of dark feel to the show they wanted. Maybe a couple of seasons of morale and attitude sliding and then Janeway finally having enough of it and then invoke Starfleet protocols by the third season or so to instill a sense of hope for he crew.
We do get this, but they are professionals, and Star Trek is not a soap opera. It never felt like they were "just days from a starbase" to me. There are some very emotional moments when Voyager does make contact with Starfleet, first in season 4, then again in season 6. Starfleet officers are trained to go on missions that may take years.
Here are things we see Voyager often do that TNG and DS9 never do:
-Looking for trade
-Looking for raw materials
-Looking to develop new power sources
-Looking for new technology to help get home sooner
-Mining ore
-Fixing their own ship(or at least discussing it)
-Building their own special shuttle
Here are things we see Voyager often do that TNG and DS9 never do:
-Looking for trade
-Looking for raw materials
-Looking to develop new power sources
-Looking for new technology to help get home sooner
-Mining ore
-Fixing their own ship(or at least discussing it)
-Building their own special shuttle
I watched a "Voyager" ep today. It was the one with the fake Voyager crew who are con artist. It's a fun episode but it does have something in that is in a lot of episode's that hurt the show and I think impacts how people look at the show.
That issue would be the alien of the week who is unreasonable and always starts shooting at "Voyager" for no real good reason. DS9 had a war yet I think "Voyager" had more pointless space battles than DS9 and TNG combined. It really does make the show fell kind of low brow, like it doesn't trust it's audience to be into the show unless they get a weekly space battle.
Jason
That issue would be the alien of the week who is unreasonable and always starts shooting at "Voyager" for no real good reason. DS9 had a war yet I think "Voyager" had more pointless space battles than DS9 and TNG combined. It really does make the show fell kind of low brow, like it doesn't trust it's audience to be into the show unless they get a weekly space battle.
Jason
I think you can convey a sense of despair, for longing and similar emotions without becoming a soap-opera. And the setting was the merging of a Maquis crew with a Federation crew. That was meant to bring conflict to the story and while it did bring some, it wasn't central to the show for very long. I think it the show did not fair as well as the other series because it it wasn't as different in feel as people were expecting. It felt a bit derivative of previous series.
