Biggest problem with "Voyager" is that they didn't really take any chances.

[fireproof78]

It just would have been nice to see the Maquis have more than token conflict with the Starfleet personnel. No, I don't mean it lasts all season, much less the entire show, but many of the conflicts brought up in "Caretaker" were ignored. Paris and Chakotay hate each other? Meh.

It just feels like the Maquis feel in to lockstep behind Janeway with little question of methods or concerns, and the Starfleet officers accepted Chakotay as First Officer, and Torres as Chief Engineer, even though they were not commissioned officers. Regardless of being "more enlightened" I find it hard to believe that everyone just accepted it with only the occasional problem and little tension.

Also, for the record, the gripes I hear about Voyager rarely, if ever, center around Janeway being a female captain. It could have been Picard as the captain, and if it was the same insipid stories I would have not enjoyed it either.

 

[Sophie74656]

There were formal complaints when B'Elanna was made chief engineer

 

[fireproof78]

Which felt like token complaints and not tension.

 

[Herbert]

It may have been mentioned already but I think the episode "Tuvix" was taking a chance. Well, the ending anyway

 

[at Quark's]

^true, that.

I didn't like the choice Janeway made (even though I can understand she couldn't really choose anything else), but it definitely was not an "easy, lazy" ending. In that respect is was absolutely better than, say, the EMH at the last possible moment finding a possibility to save the consciousness of Tuvix and bring Neelix and Tuvok back.

Though I still think more could have been done in the aftermath than just Naomi possibly referencing him once again in ...what, 5 seasons later ?

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

It just would have been nice to see the Maquis have more than token conflict with the Starfleet personnel. No, I don't mean it lasts all season, much less the entire show, but many of the conflicts brought up in "Caretaker" were ignored. Paris and Chakotay hate each other? Meh.

It just feels like the Maquis feel in to lockstep behind Janeway with little question of methods or concerns, and the Starfleet officers accepted Chakotay as First Officer, and Torres as Chief Engineer, even though they were not commissioned officers. Regardless of being "more enlightened" I find it hard to believe that everyone just accepted it with only the occasional problem and little tension.

100% AGREE

Also, for the record, the gripes I hear about Voyager rarely, if ever, center around Janeway being a female captain. It could have been Picard as the captain, and if it was the same insipid stories I would have not enjoyed it either.

Some Trekkies hated Voyager under the only pretext that the vessel was under the command of a female captain... Sad!

 

[at Quark's]

I thought VOY had problems for several reasons ... but having a female captain was never one of them.

Though, perhaps the uncertainty the producers seemed to have in portaying a female lead showed-- experimenting with the hairdo (Mulgrew complained about that in a documentary as being a symbol of producers being uncertain how to portray her character), or one ep showing her as tough-as-nails, then suddenly show her from her 'sensitive' side, etc. But ultimately, that would say more about the producers and their anxieties about a female head character than about the show itself.

 

[Sophie74656]

The producers did seem to have a hard time with a woman in command. How to portray her as being strong without coming off as a bitch. I clearly remember something on tv about designing civilian clothes for her, specifically her sleeping clothes. They said it was very difficult for them to design something that was feminine but not overly so

 

[Jayson1]

I have a question for people who didn't want more starfleet/maquis conflict. If you not going to use them for that then what is the point of making them maquis? They were created for the purpose of not just conflict but also to add a bit of edge to the show that you might not get if everyone is starfleet. Seem bad to cut the legs out underneath them until you max out all the drama you can get out of them, at which point you pivot to some new thing. Maybe this is when you bring in a Seven or some other alien or aliens or you kill a few characters. Maybe you do a season of "Year of Hell." and maybe you get the ship home early and you spend a season in the Alpha Quadrant.
To me the show so much more potential than just flying home and encountering aliens of the week and the Borg from time to time. Especially frustrating when they sort of do this with the Holodeck. Use to be he main hangout was the pool table bar and then it was the resort and Da Vinci's workshop and Captain Proton and then the Irish Villiage. If they had spent as much time trying to create new ongoing settings or characters for the holodeck as they did the Delta Quadrant I think the show would have been better for it.

Jason

 

[Prax]

I disagree that conflict would naturally go away. It would most likely simply change over time and new conflicts would arise. Also with KIra and Odo while they learned how to work with starfleet they still felt independent from it. A starfleet officer isn't going to go get revenge because someone has killed her friends or teach Carddisians how to become terrorist or stand up against the Romulans, even if it pisses off Starfleet. It's one thing to work with people and another to fully embrace everything they do and not every want to have them also embrace some of your own views.

Jason

Are you saying that Kira and Odo butted heads with Starfleet more than B'elanna and Chakotay? The Maquis was made up of Fed. colonists and led by (former)Starfleet officers. Prior to Voyager, we see them in TNG, where they're depicted as honest, good people just trying to defend themselves, where it's also mentioned that many of Starfleet were joining their ranks, and in DS9's "The Maquis" where they're depicted as human pansies in over their heads. On Voyager, Chakotay is their leader, and even then, we get darker aspects to the Maquis than the other shows, like Sudor.

They never dropped the Maquis storyline throughout the entire 7 seasons.

As far as "taking chances" goes, what are we comparing to? Do the 3 new films take chances? I'd say no, not really. Or the new Star Wars films? The old ones certainly took many, many chances.

Did TNG "take chances"? Or DS9?

 

[Prax]

If you not going to use them for that then what is the point of making them maquis? They were created for the purpose of not just conflict but also to add a bit of edge to the show that you might not get if everyone is starfleet. Seem bad to cut the legs out underneath them until you max out all the drama you can get out of them, at which point you pivot to some new thing.

The premise is false, as they DID use them. You're relegated to arguing "how much" they should have used them, which becomes pointless. And you might be surprised just how much the crew interaction on Voyager differs from the other shows. There is certainly a lot more interpersonal conflict than the other shows. Nearly every character on the show gets into a conflict with other characters at some point, and in some cases, quite frequently.

 

[marlboro]

How many Voyager scripts would have worked equally well if Picard's Enterprise had been lost in the Delta Quadrant after a skirmish with the Maquis?

Quite a few of them would have with some minor tweaks, I think.


p.s. I hate sounding so negative about the show all the time, so I'd like to mention that I'm watching "Counterpoint" right now and it's great.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

I thought VOY had problems for several reasons ... but having a female captain was never one of them..

I didn't refer to producers but the perception that some supposed fans had of Voyager.
And to go back to (original) producers, of course they haven't any problem with the principle of hiring a woman as captain. Besides, Berman thought that it was time to make it happen and fought tooth and nail on defending his project in front of UPN & CBS Executives but yes, it was a arduous task for them, scriptwriters and directors to "work " on Janeway. Maybe, they should get more confidence in Mulgrew here...

 

[Nightdiamond]

Like I've always said before, I've always wanted to see a big emotional, intense debate between the Maquis and Starfleet. And 80% of the episode should focus on it. That was one of the biggest missed opportunities of the show.

The Maquis have been fighting the Cardassians and running from Starfleet for about 4 years or so at this point? I can see the Maqui's side being, the Federation threw them off their land without their vote or approval--to placate a nation that have a major record of human rights abuses. Also been caught violating treaties. Common sense?

And I can see Starfleet saying that they warned the settlers decades ago not to settle the area, because it was disputed and close to the Cardassian border. Who would do that? Common sense?

Have both sides tell personal stories, give historical examples, get emotional or be very rational about it.

We know by the end of the episode, both sides are going to be friends and work together again. But it would make for a meaty, intriguing episode.

Now I would say Tuvix was an example of taking a successful risk. Why? Because we're still talking about it. Doesn't seem much of TNG lite episode. Janeway got accused of being a murderer. I never really thought much about this episode, but I might to have to watch it again.

 

[Prax]

Oh, there was a huge backlash against Janeway...before the show even started. And it still exists today. You don't much of this on a civilized place like TrekBBS, but certainly on Reddit, other forums, and YouTube.

There was a bit of a backlash against Picard, too, but it seems most people have warmed up to him by now.

How many Voyager scripts would have worked equally well if Picard's Enterprise had been lost in the Delta Quadrant after a skirmish with the Maquis?

That's sort of like saying Janeway was an "insert character." Or that Janeway and Picard had the same personality and made all the same decisions. I dunno, I have a really difficult time placing Picard on Voyager. You'd have to change all the other characters, too.

I think the Trek Captains are pretty distinct from one another.

 

[marlboro]

Now I would say Tuvix was an example of taking a successful risk. Why? Because we're still talking about it. Doesn't seem much of TNG lite episode. Janeway got accused of being a murderer. I never really thought much about this episode, but I might to have to watch it again.

John Wilkes Booth must have been a heck of an actor. Why? Because we're still talking about him.

TUVIX LIVES!

 

[Tracy Trek]

That is an interesting thought. Chakotay probably did run his ship more like a Starfleet ship. He was probably a lt. Commander or higher when he left Starfleet.

Although it may have been disproved, I remember reading about a theory that Chakotay was Ro's instructor at the academy when she took the advanced tactical training course.

I think there were instances where the tension could still be felt in the later seasons. Wasn't there a scene in Repression where someone said something about the Maquis being targeted for the attacks? Sort of a your crew, our crew thing. And this was before all of Maquis had their brainwashing programming turned on. The way Torres and Tabor reacted to the hologram of Crell Moset, although for Tabor it went beyond his time in the Maquis. Does anyone remember if anything was said about the status of what would happen to the Maquis on Voyager after they started having regular communications with Starfleet?

 

[marlboro]

That's sort of like saying Janeway was an "insert character." Or that Janeway and Picard had the same personality and made all the same decisions. I dunno, I have a really difficult time placing Picard on Voyager. You'd have to change all the other characters, too.

What I'm saying is that, with some slight massaging, many (not all) of the scripts would have worked as a TNG season 8. Assuming you wrote the Enterprise as being lost in the Delta Quadrant, of course. The 7 of 9 episodes wouldn't work without introducing the character obviously, but how difficult would it be to work Riker into "Nemesis" or Picard into "The Thaw"? How many of the EMH's episodes could be filled with similarly themed Data episodes? And most of all, how much would you pay to see a version of "Virtuoso" with Beverly Crusher wowing an entire planet of aliens with her tap dancing?

 

[Prax]

I'm sure there are some that would work with a "light massage" but I think most would require dangerous surgery.

I can see Picard in The Thaw if I try hard enough, but not with Kim.

I can't picture Riker in Nemesis. I tried. Maybe lean, fit season 1-2 Riker. Maybe Tasha?

Data could not take the EMH episodes...No Way Jose! Nor could Beverly. The Doctor has such a huge ego and he gets really passionate. He's like the opposite of dull.

The characters are very different.

I could picture movie Picard chasing down Ransom in equinox, but not TV Picard.

 

[fireproof78]

Oh, there was a huge backlash against Janeway...before the show even started. And it still exists today. You don't much of this on a civilized place like TrekBBS, but certainly on Reddit, other forums, and YouTube.

There was a bit of a backlash against Picard, too, but it seems most people have warmed up to him by now.
That's sort of like saying Janeway was an "insert character." Or that Janeway and Picard had the same personality and made all the same decisions. I dunno, I have a really difficult time placing Picard on Voyager. You'd have to change all the other characters, too.

I think the Trek Captains are pretty distinct from one another.

I actually like Janeway more than Picard. Picard annoys me.

I'm sure there are some that would work with a "light massage" but I think most would require dangerous surgery.

I can see Picard in The Thaw if I try hard enough, but not with Kim.

I can't picture Riker in Nemesis. I tried. Maybe lean, fit season 1-2 Riker. Maybe Tasha?

Data could not take the EMH episodes...No Way Jose! Nor could Beverly. The Doctor has such a huge ego and he gets really passionate. He's like the opposite of dull.

The characters are very different.

I could picture movie Picard chasing down Ransom in equinox, but not TV Picard.

I disagree. I definitely see TV PIcard pursuing Ransom, especially if it is like "The Wounded" or even "First Duty." Remember, Picard is seen as the chief enforcer of the Prime Directive, which Ransom pretty much used as toilet paper when they could no longer power the three seashells.