Biggest problem with "Voyager" is that they didn't really take any chances.
- Thread starter Jayson1
- Start date
Movie Picard from First Contact (the ready room scene with Lily) actually reminds me a bit of Janeway in Equinox. Although I think he came to his senses better than she did after Lily gave him a dressing down.
Yes.
The closest TV Picard ever came to that was in iBorg. And even then, he's much more in control of the situation. It's still a far cry from being interchangeable with Janeway.
The most similar instances of Captains on a personal vendetta like Janeway in Equinox, besides First Contact, are Sisko in For The Uniform, and Archer in Anomaly, as well as some other ENT episodes.
You could maybe even throw in Kirk when he's chasing down that gas cloud thing.
The most similar instances of Captains on a personal vendetta like Janeway in Equinox, besides First Contact, are Sisko in For The Uniform, and Archer in Anomaly, as well as some other ENT episodes.
You could maybe even throw in Kirk when he's chasing down that gas cloud thing.
I don't see it as a far stretch of Picard doing that. Actually, if it were more like Season 3 or 2, I could see it more likely.
ETA: Again, the idea of VOY is a crew out making tough decisions and being pushed to the limits. So, it does not take much of an imagination to see Picard becoming obsessed with seeing justice done, especially since Voyager is the only Starfleet presence in the Delta Quadrant. The idea of starting a war of an alien species for no other reason than "They have stuff we want" would be reprehensible to Picard.
And it's not like there isn't the possibility of Data losing his ethical subroutines, like the Doctor, that would allow other similar situations to happen.
I just don't see it as far of a stretch as others.
ETA: Again, the idea of VOY is a crew out making tough decisions and being pushed to the limits. So, it does not take much of an imagination to see Picard becoming obsessed with seeing justice done, especially since Voyager is the only Starfleet presence in the Delta Quadrant. The idea of starting a war of an alien species for no other reason than "They have stuff we want" would be reprehensible to Picard.
And it's not like there isn't the possibility of Data losing his ethical subroutines, like the Doctor, that would allow other similar situations to happen.
I just don't see it as far of a stretch as others.
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What I am saying about Kira and Odo is that even though they grew to accept Starfleet is they never felt like starfleet officers. Actually though with DS9 is that it kind of goes a little beyond that and the entire show I always felt was more critical of Starfleet than any other Trek show. They were the good guys but not always seen as always being right on every issue. Kira or Odo or Quark or Garak could actually point out a flaw and not have it be shot down as always being wrong. You can have things like Section 31 or Sisko poisioning a planet or tricking the Romulans into war and it felt natural and edgy by Trek standards.
As for the maquis I just disagree that they were noble freedom fighters which is what I think you are saying which means they would then have no problem fitting in on a Starfleet ship. While the cause might have been noble it does mean that if you do choose to join it means you don't think the federation can solve the problem but it also means you are willing to kill and proably do all sorts of things that are unethical for the greater good. It also means you will also will have people whose reasons for joining are more personal than political. Suder just wants to kill people and Paris was in it to just "pay the bar bills" as it was sort of described by Janeway in the pilot. Every maquis proably has their own reason for joining and the reasons mostly likely go beyond just the idea of wanting to protect their home.
I am someone who does feel like they were handled okay in the first two seasons. I disagree though that they felt relevant in all 7 seasons. Which is fine because at that point you should see Maquis who start thinking more like starfleet people but also you should have starfleet people who start thinking more like maquis. To me though it feels like the show was more intrested in making them all feel like they are all part of one big happy family and Seven of Nine was the Eddie Haskell character who sort of stands out for not being as happy and perfect as everyone else. I know one can argue we did see conflict sometimes between Torres and Paris and tuvok and Neelix but like I mentioned this always felt more like playful banter instead of people who can get into major disagreements. With the exception of Janeway/Seven in season 4 and Paris and Torres. I felt they did a good job with those combo's but we should have seen more of it with the other character interactions.
As for comparing it I would proably look more towards the other Trek shows. I think it would be silly to try and turn a Trek show into NYPD Blue or OZ which was some of the really,really edgy stuff back during that time. That means pushing the envelope should be seen in regards as to just how much can you challenge established concepts and idea's that have been used in all the Trek's. What seperates this show from the other's and what can you get away with while still feeling like Trek. Going to the DQ and the Maquis were good building blocks. The next should have been towards making the DQ feel like a real place much like the Alpha Quadrant feels like a real place. A quadrant needs to be more than just alien of the weeks. Another thing would be to embrace story arc's and make more reacurring characters.
Also you could seperate itself by doing season arc's such as "Year of Hell' to sort of seperate it from DS9 where there ongoing stories played out through the entire run of the show. Also why not embrace the idea of killing off main characters which would have been a major change to Trek were you almost never see a regular go. This could create a real sense of danger were you never know if a character might die, this week. Plus the show could have been ahead of the curve and deal with issue's that even Trek had been afraid to do. Why not have the first gay character or have a main character who is a drug addict or even has a methpor disease that is basically future aids.
Jason
Taking chances? As in what sort of chances? Graphic violence and sex? Horrible protagonists and overly sympathetic antagonists?
Killing a main wasn't a big part of 90s TV at all-when it happened there was a few reasons-actors wanted out or they were fired or their contracts came up.
Even in DS9 they didn't kill any mains except Jadzia and that was because a bunch of brouhaha between Terry and Rick Berman.
Killing a main wasn't a big part of 90s TV at all-when it happened there was a few reasons-actors wanted out or they were fired or their contracts came up.
Even in DS9 they didn't kill any mains except Jadzia and that was because a bunch of brouhaha between Terry and Rick Berman.
Can you imagine the endless complaining that would go on to this very day if they had killed off a main character?
Just think of all the perpetual outrage about Kes on this forum. I'd be willing to bet that even if they killed off Harry "The Ensign" Kim, we'd right now be stuck in a temporal causality loop of whining.
Just think of all the perpetual outrage about Kes on this forum. I'd be willing to bet that even if they killed off Harry "The Ensign" Kim, we'd right now be stuck in a temporal causality loop of whining.
Yeah if they had killed Kim everyone would be complaining-they kept a pretty blonde and got rid of the nerdy Asian! It would be even more charged and emotional than the actual course of events.
Still people complain and meander over Tasha Yar's death and Trip's death in Enterprise didn't win Brannon and Braga any brownie points for "risk taking".
Still people complain and meander over Tasha Yar's death and Trip's death in Enterprise didn't win Brannon and Braga any brownie points for "risk taking".
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Those are horrid ideas in my opinion. One off shockers, almost cheap. The impact of killing someone or giving them a warm and fuzzy(not!) disease.. Oooh goodie I'm going to watch Star Trek tonight. Yay Tuvok is dead and look Tom has space syphilis! Can't wait for the ship to implode and for them all to suffer. But hey ho Neelix got away with his stash of weed to trade.
And be censored by UPN but I know your being sarcastic.
And Voyager wasn't alien or anomaly of the week-Kazon Arc, Seska arc, Tom/Be'llanna romance arc, Seven and the Doctor's Arc and arguably Janeway as well, hirogen arc, the Borg Three,
Not to mention several outstanding one shot episodes as well.
Not to mention several outstanding one shot episodes as well.
Species 8472 wrap up...
With the thought in mind that Voyager is supposed to be traveling home most of the time, and hence can't show species with a fixed territory over too long of a timespan (unless that territory would be huge), how would you go about that ?
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Maybe some people would be upset at a character death but that is the part of taking chances. For all you know a new character brought in will be even more popular than any of the older characters. Seven of NIne is popular so other new characters could be equal as popular or maybe you elevate a character that started off as a guest star. I can think of several that would have fit the bill. Suder,Seska,Chell or any of the guest characters from "The Good Shephard."
As for their being arc's I kind of see what ya are talking about but IMO they still feel kind of stagnate. It's kind of like they got a intresting idea but aren't willing to take it to the next level. Maybe it's because when they do something intresting you always feel like they are holding back because they don't want to offend the casual viewers. Taking risks means opening yourself up for criticism and maybe you get some of that by removing Kes but i'm nor sure she was a popular enough character that people would feel terrible about it.
Can anyone think of anything post season 2, that you think had the potential of turning off audiences? I can only think of two and that is Seven's catsuit and having a episode with the "Rock" in it and in those cases it felt like the show was either trying to just go after horny teenage boys or try and bring in wrestling fans.
Jason
As for their being arc's I kind of see what ya are talking about but IMO they still feel kind of stagnate. It's kind of like they got a intresting idea but aren't willing to take it to the next level. Maybe it's because when they do something intresting you always feel like they are holding back because they don't want to offend the casual viewers. Taking risks means opening yourself up for criticism and maybe you get some of that by removing Kes but i'm nor sure she was a popular enough character that people would feel terrible about it.
Can anyone think of anything post season 2, that you think had the potential of turning off audiences? I can only think of two and that is Seven's catsuit and having a episode with the "Rock" in it and in those cases it felt like the show was either trying to just go after horny teenage boys or try and bring in wrestling fans.
Jason
The way I see it is that the distance of space in Trek has always been a little inconsitent. That's why the Enterprise can be out on the outer rim in one ep and next week be at earth. "Voyager" has even done this by having Hirgoen show up even though the ship might have jumped great distances such as in the "Voyager Conspiracy" or Neelix meeting his people in season 7.
IMO it would be okay to use familiar aliens the entire run if they work because of suspension of disbelief. A lived in universe to me has more upside than trying to get the math right on something Trek has never really put much importance on.
Jason
Now I'm confused. When Voyager in your reference did do something to turn off audiences (er is that what one would want??) it was still not risk taking enough?? The parameters of what they should and should not have done are changing, I get that you don't like the show but do you think Voyager should have taken chances purely to turn off audiences? Why? Let me also ask. You seem to revere DS9. Would you want to kill off and change the characters of that show? Turn them into potheads and have the station miraculously made into a space ship. At some level surely one has to trust in some of the show we saw and let the premise stand.. Criticism is one thing but looking for fault at every turn is almost spamming.
