Spoilers Beyond: The Swarm VS USS Vengeance

[Skipper]

First of all I'm sorry if I put this in the wrong section, but I'm a newbee so bear with me .

So, what's your take? Could have the USS Vengeance survive the first encounter with the Swarm (I mean the first time we see the Swarm, not that monstruos thing that attacked Yorktown)?

Thoughts?

 

[Skipper]

^ I have to say it is a little frustrating not being able to edit your posts ... Argh!

 

[Timo]

Our heroes specifically say that their ship is not equipped to cope with "this kind" of attack. Later on, the defenses of Yorktown appear to be capable of that very thing - of fighting back a saturation attack at point blank ranges.

So it's not that Starfleet tech in the era is inferior. It's that different Starfleet elements are optimized for different kinds of fighting. And the Vengeance could have been a jack-of-all-trades, because she clearly wasn't an ace (it took her ages to destroy the Enterprise, when a ship concentrating on being good at ship-to-ship and enjoying a massive advantage in size and power should have fared much better). The ability to ward off swarms could certainly have been built in.

Interestingly, the Vengeance apparently had more phaser emplacements than the Enterprise in ST:ID. And then the Enterprise got repaired, and in ST:B she suddenly sported many more phaser emplacements... Still not enough to cope with the Swarm, though.

Interestingly, too, the Enterprise in the first nuMovie easily dealt with a saturation attack by Nero's missiles - once it was directed at a third party! Perhaps that's the key to survival? The Vengeance could certainly create a multitarget scenario, with her big spherical combat drones, and thus snipe the Swarm from the flanks, perhaps to similar effect to that of Sulu's effortless victory at the end of the first movie.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[StarMan]

Given the nature of the attack, the Swarm. Just remember Vengeance snuck up on Enterprise and pummeled it quite thoroughly. My point is unless any superior tech were involved, any large, unprepared vessel would likely be as vulnerable as the Enterprise was. The Enterprise's firepower was not a deciding factor in it's demise.

 

[Tosk]

The Swarm would chew through the Vengeance almost as easily as it did the Enterprise. You still have a starship utterly unprepared for dealing with such a massive amount of opponents. You'd probably lose more Swarm ships in the process, but the end result would be the same.

 

[Timo]

Sheer firepower and nothing else held the Swarm at bay at Yorktown, so it must be decisive after all.

Shielding/hull strength apparently could have been better on the Enterprise, too, as her hull was cut to pieces where Yorktown outer walls weren't. But there we could easily assume that the Vengeance had Yorktown style quantities of protection, without any qualitative superiority as such. We just can't tell very well, because Kirk never managed to fire a single shot at the Vengeance.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Skipper]

The Swarm would chew through the Vengeance almost as easily as it did the Enterprise. You still have a starship utterly unprepared for dealing with such a massive amount of opponents. You'd probably lose more Swarm ships in the process, but the end result would be the same.

Probably the number of ships in the Swarm is the deciding factor. It I remember well, the Swarm that attacked YorkTown was composed by thousands (or hundred of thousands???) of units.

 

[Timo]

We probably get the biggest number count in the "giant wave" scene where the Franklin confronts the Swarm. It's clearly more than thousands there, and we never get to see the edges of the formation.

Much fewer were rendered for the early fight with the Enterprise, basically because the audience still had to see there were individual craft involved.

But IIRC Yorktown was putting out at most ten times the firepower of the Enterprise, by a count of red bolts flying across space. The station was still dealing with the assault much better than the relatively less overwhelmed Enterprise, for some reason. Had the Swarm been equally effective at Yorktown, Krall would not have needed the bioweapon for anything much...

A simple and disappointing case of the supervillain becoming inexplicably less invincible as a movie progresses? Or a case of starbases being superior to a great number of starships? The latter would be consistent with what we see in DS9, and what probably is implicitly true in all the other shows as well (or else what allows Trek armies to mount a defense against fleet assault?).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Skipper]

Now I remember: the Swarm ships never fired a shot. Their only tactic was ramming their opponent. If you manage to keep them at a distance, you can run a loooooong attrition tactic.

 

[Tomalak]

I was a little unclear why the drones blow up at the end - I thought they were basically crashing into each other when their communications were disrupted by classical music. Is that right?

 

[Ghel]

That was my take too. So many ships moving too quickly and too close together for human/alien reaction times. Without constant computer communication and compensation, they were bouncing off each other like pinballs.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

First of all I'm sorry if I put this in the wrong section, but I'm a newbee so bear with me .

So, what's your take? Could have the USS Vengeance survive the first encounter with the Swarm (I mean the first time we see the Swarm, not that monstruos thing that attacked Yorktown)?

Thoughts?

Vengeance would be toast, just like Enterprise was, and for precisely the same reason.

It boils down to this: Starfleet's weapon systems are designed to deal with known military threats with conventional weapon systems. Romulans, Klingons, etc are a known quantity and their weapons are specifically designed to neutralize these kinds of attacks. But Starfleet's strength isn't in their ability to handle these problems because, all things considered, military threats from these races aren't really their biggest problem.

Their problem is UNCONVENTIONAL threats represented by unknown attackers, which is exactly the sort of thing Krall represents. Scotty explicitly says this in the film, that their defenses aren't designed to counter this type of attack. Starfleet's never seen it before.

So they need time to come up with a come up with a countermeasure, which Kirk was eventually able to do on the Franklin. With a little time to analyze the enemy's attack, assess his weaknesses and finally exploit them, Starfleet crews have time and again demonstrated their capacity to completely neutralize even vastly superior adversaries with minimal use of force. They never EVER win their fights by superior firepower or greater strength; they win by applying just the right technique against just the right point to bring their enemy's attack crashing down around his own ears. IOW, Starfleet's Warrior Scientists are masters of a form of technological jujitsu that topples even the strongest adversaries neatly and efficiently.

USS Vengeance is a pure combatant, lacking scientific facilities or the analytical systems present on exploration ships. It is not capable of performing the kind of detailed analysis needed to neutralize unconventional threats, it is designed, instead, to dominate its enemies with overwhelming firepower. More to the point, Krall's tactics are ultimately designed specifically to defeat Stafleet's conventional countermeasures, so TEN ships like Vengeance would have a fighting chance against the swarm, but only to the extent that it would take Krall a couple of minutes to overwhelm them.

Without the ability to adapt, to assess the weaknesses of their enemies and deftly eliminate the enemy's advantage, superior firepower is irrelevant. Vengeance would have played right into Krall's hands and would have been pulverized for good measure.

 

[Kemaiku]

Scotty explicitly says this in the film, that their defenses aren't designed to counter this type of attack. Starfleet's never seen it before.

Spock, actually.

 

[Timo]

Scotty explicitly says this in the film, that their defenses aren't designed to counter this type of attack. Starfleet's never seen it before.

But the thing is, Yorktown is coping just fine: a much bigger attack is being kept at bay, there being no penetration of the defenses or the structures yet. And that's not because Krall would be holding back or anything: he has zero motivation to do so.

So "their" defenses must refer to those of the Enterprise and not to those of the Federation. Different Starfleet assets have different strengths and weaknesses. And we know essentially zip about those of the Vengeance because we never see that ship on a defensive mode.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Sheer firepower and nothing else held the Swarm at bay at Yorktown, so it must be decisive after all.

Sheer firepower didn't STOP the swarm, though, and wouldn't have if Franklin hadn't intervened. Yorktown's defenses were far more powerful than Enterprise had (that kinda goes without saying for a station that size) but Krall came very close to penetrating the station's outer barriers and entering the city proper. Moreover, to imagine those defenses would have prevailed on their own would pretty much negate the entire point of the film (why, after all, would Kirk bother risking his life to get the old derelict flying if there was any chance Yorktown didn't need his help?)

Shielding/hull strength apparently could have been better on the Enterprise, too, as her hull was cut to pieces where Yorktown outer walls weren't.

Krall took out their defenses at the outset crushing the deflector dish and phaser banks just moments into the attack. He did the same thing at Yorktown, attacking its defense satellites first and then hitting the station's own defenses minutes later.

 

[Timo]

The point is, Yorktown's defenses were better for coping with the Swarm than those of the Enterprise: a surprise attack had very different results in the two different cases. Yorktown may have had nothing but quantity on its side, but that already amounts to a quality - it means the station is designed to handle a swarming saturation attack while the ship is not.

After that, it comes down to which side is stronger, and here Krall appears to be, by a wide margin. But that's not something inherent in technology or philosophy or stuff like that. It only reflects the industrial capabilities of the Ancients.

He did the same thing at Yorktown, attacking its defense satellites first and then hitting the station's own defenses minutes later.

There was no sign of the Yorktown defenses going down, save for the loss of individual satellites while other emplacements kept on fighting. And there was no penetration, while the starship succumbed to such from the get-go. So again a qualitative difference, even if stemming from a quantitative one (and again showing surprising relative advantage to Yorktown which was facing a much larger attack).

Dramatically, the station was in danger. Potentially, the whole Federation was, even if Krall had no means of producing replacements to lost drones. In practice, even dumb Klingons would probably have worn down Krall's invasion soon enough; but they wouldn't have minded the loss of life on their forward outpost, while Kirk neatly avoided that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dilandu]

First of all I'm sorry if I put this in the wrong section, but I'm a newbee so bear with me .

So, what's your take? Could have the USS Vengeance survive the first encounter with the Swarm (I mean the first time we see the Swarm, not that monstruos thing that attacked Yorktown)?

Thoughts?

Anything with any megaton-size weapon could take out the swarm. Even pre-warp civilization, armed with only chemical-powered neutron-tipped missiles could blast Kraal armada into oblivion.

The only reason why the swarm was able to destroy "Enterprise" is because authors of STB ordered so. This whole attack make as much sence as if Kraal in spacesuit would destroy "Enterprise" by hitting it repeatedly with broomstick.

 

[Dilandu]

So it's not that Starfleet tech in the era is inferior. I

They are clearly inferior. Their photon torpedoes seems to not carry any warheads at all) Either the Starfleet have real financial troubles and decided temporarely to disarm starships... or after "Into Darkness" incident someone decided that megaton-scale weapon should not be in hands of probably-disloyal individuals.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The point is, Yorktown's defenses were better for coping with the Swarm than those of the Enterprise: a surprise attack had very different results in the two different cases. Yorktown may have had nothing but quantity on its side, but that already amounts to a quality - it means the station is designed to handle a swarming saturation attack while the ship is not.

See, that would only be a valid point of Yorktown's defenses ACTUALLY PREVAILED. The entire point of the movie is that they didn't prevail, and WOULD NOT have prevailed if Franklin hadn't struck at their achilles heel.

The greater size and power of Yorktown Starbase doesn't factor into this; it's like saying it takes pride of lions longer to eat an elephant than a zebra and then implying elephants are better evolved to fight lions. It doesn't work that way.

After that, it comes down to which side is stronger, and here Krall appears to be, by a wide margin. But that's not something inherent in technology or philosophy or stuff like that. It only reflects the industrial capabilities of the Ancients.

It doesn't reflect that at all. Krall's superior because he has a whole hell of a lot of drones and, more importantly, because his attacks are TAILORED to defeat Starfleet defenses. It's inherent to the weapons he's using and how he's using them.

Starfleet could not have beaten him through sheer force alone because Krall already has overwhelming force and knows all of their weaknesses. But if Starfleet displays even a modest amount of adaptability, even a 100 year old jalopy like Franklin can defeat him.

Put it this way: Krall has a really big tank with an armor-piercing gun and enough ammo to take down anything Starfleet can throw at him. Stafleet has two options: either try to take him down with their own tanks, or get OUT of the tank, run around behind him and pull the two red wires on the fuse box he didn't secure correctly. Starfleet chose the second option, which is what they ALWAYS do, which is why they always win: if you leave ANY vulnerabilities in your design, Starfleet will exploit the shit out of it.

And there was no penetration...

They were literally SECONDS from penetration when Franklin intervened. And again, even the SUGGESTION that Yorktown's defenses would have prevailed is entirely contrary to the situation. It's an ontological fact: we KNOW they couldn't have survived, because the entire second half of the movie wouldn't exist if they could. The fact that they had more firepower and more shield power delayed the inevitable, but it was DEFINITELY inevitable.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Anything with any megaton-size weapon could take out the swarm. Even pre-warp civilization, armed with only chemical-powered neutron-tipped missiles could blast Kraal armada into oblivion.

Nope. The obvious countermeasure would be to maneuver one drone ship to intercept the warhead and then a dozen or so in close formation to surround it, while the rest of the swarm moves to a standoff distance of about 1km. The energy release would be absorbed only by the ships closest to it, which are then vaporized; the fireball diffuses harmelssly in the vacuum (inverse square law) and the swarm goes on like nothing happened.

Which is, from what I can tell, exactly what Krall did against Yorktown. Earlier, when fighting Enterprise, he was able to simply move his ships out of the way of the torpedoes, which hadn't been set with proximity fuses (and wouldn't have made much difference if they had).

This whole attack make as much sence as if Kraal in spacesuit would destroy "Enterprise" by hitting it repeatedly with broomstick.

No, it's more like killing a battleship by hitting it repeatedly with bullets (which we've been doing since... well, forever). The fact that Krall's swarm ships all have shields of their own makes them that much more effective.

Think of it this way: every one of Krall's drone ships is basically a photon torpedo, and Krall has THOUSANDS of them. The TOS Enterprise's shields were supposedly capable of deflecting up to 400 photon torpedo impacts, so all Krall had to do was to hit the Enterprise with 400 drones to completely overwhelm it. Which is exactly what he did.