Betrayal (DS9 #6)

[Nerys Ghemor]

I found it rather amusing that Garak was suspected of blowing up his own shop, several seasons before he actually did it.

Yeah, that gave me quite a deja vu when I saw the episode where he did that!

I think the picture of Berat in the link looks excellent, although I have to add the caveat that I'm not entirely good at doing mental casting of aliens in my head. (I did imagine Berat with blue eyes, though, as per Nog's comment, "They look alike. Sort of.")

Yep...that's also the reason that when I requested that particular photomanip, I asked that a pic of Garak be used as the Cardassian model. That would explain people getting a look out of the corner of their eye and mistaking the two.

 

[Astraea]

I was just wondering if anyone's figured out where "Betrayal" and "Valhalla" go in the overall timeline. There's an "In the Hands of the Prophets" reference in Valhalla, so it's at least after S1, but I would think "Betrayal" has to take place before "Cardassians," since Dukat's in power then. On the other hand, it might be interesting to try to tie the political machinations in that episode into the politics in the novels, although I'm not sure how that could be done...

Anyhow, just idle speculation.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

^^According to Memory Alpha, the Detapa Council formed in the 19th century and had nominal power over the government, although in practice Central Command and the Obsidian Order ran the show and the Council was their puppet. Which sounds fairly consistent with what you describe in the book.

From what I remember, the party in question was known as the Revanchist Party, which means a party dedicated to reclaiming lost territory (i.e. Bajor). I may be forgetting some details, but I never saw it as a democratic thing, more a clash of factions within the military government. Even in a military dictatorship, there can be different factions within the military jockeying for leadership. And I suppose they could call themselves parties if they wanted to.

You're not saying that the military has been in charge of Cardassia scince the 19th century are because I know from Chain of Command that Gul Maddred was a child before the military took over and I don't think he could be that old. Though if I missunderstood your meaning sorry my bad.

 

[KRAD]

I was just wondering if anyone's figured out where "Betrayal" and "Valhalla" go in the overall timeline.

The novel timeline in Voyages of Imagination puts both novels between the first and second season, with Valhalla first, then Betrayal.

 

[Christopher]

You're not saying that the military has been in charge of Cardassia scince the 19th century

No, I'm explicitly saying that the Detapa Council has existed since then, nothing more. Presumably the Council was originally the real government, but when the military eventually took over, it was reduced to a figurehead with power in name only.

 

[Marie1]

Okay, just finished Betrayal last night, and I thought it was great!

I love Berat- Tilton writes him so you can't help but be sympathetic. Even if he'd done some terrible things instead of being the victim of political upheaval, you'd still feel for him.

I like the barrage Sisko faced from the ambassadors, Marak etc. It was very realistic with the way his job was portrayed, but we didn't always see it. And it's nice to have a Cardassian antagonist other than Dukat... and it's so amusing how we appreciate Dukat a bit more after dealing with Marak and his craziness.

I like O'Brien's appreciation of Berat's technical skills, showing how there are always things that can over come racism if people are good enough to look. And I like Nog's knowledge of the station, how it's not a matter of within 2 seconds Odo finds who he's looking for.

Also, the idea that justice is more important that old loyalities or any sort of hierarchy. It's either universal, or it isn't justice. I thought Tilton did a great job!! There's just something about Berat's personality that's endearing.

Now I have some questions to bring up in your fanfiction thread...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I thought the bit with the ambassadors was great, too. I thought it was nice to see the political side of the job in addition to the Starfleet commander and Emissary roles--but that's definitely part and parcel with a station commander's job, and something you don't get to see to the same extent on a starship.

I also liked the fact that O'Brien kind of got to know Berat through his work before seeing him. To me, that was a great step forward in the character, and unfortunately one that we never really saw until after "Tribunal" in the series (where, in my opinion, even though the situation was NOT O'Brien's fault, I think he wound up really being embarrassed by the racial slur he was so used to using, and never used it again).

It's really weird reading about the way Jake and Nog used to be, now that I know how they come out at the end of the series--how in the end of DS9 we have Nog the responsible engineer, and Jake the more laid-back reporter. It's really funny to see it highlighted in such dramatic fashion how they once were!

I also got a kick out of the fact that people actually "appreciated" Dukat after dealing with that a-hole Marak. And you know Dukat was just lapping up every last bit of it!!!

And bring on your other questions...I'll be over there waiting!

 

[Thor Damar]

As one of our resident 'Cardassians' I feel that I must put my 50p (after inflation) in. Unfortunately I don't remember much of this book and I have not seen a copy in years so this may be stretchy in places.

The first thing I'll say is that this is one of my favorite early DS9 novels which is really saying a lot because they never quite agreed with me, mostly because they did not match with what I saw on screen.
Betrayal was a different kettle of fish altogether. It had an interesting storyline (a coup on Cardassia prime, a Cardassian who did not quite 'fit' in with his peers and a Bajorian traitor) some great characterization and a satisfing ending.

I will have to go with the flow and say that Berat is one of the most compelling Cardassians that we have seen on DS9. A very talented individual (as I recall he had great engineering skills) with a likable personalty trapped in a terrible situation not of his making. His plight and the way he handled it could not hope but make you feel for the guy and it's good to see that he had his freedom back(even if it meant going off into the sunset with Gul Dukat!)

Even Malak works as a typical Cardassian Bastard Stereotype although when I first read about Gul Macet returning in the DS9R my first thought was ' hang on,didn't they kill Macet off years ago?'.

Heck even the stuff that should not have worked and directly contradicted later episodes and books had a certain dramatic quantity about them. (the hangings on Cardassia for example).

 

[Marie1]

I thought the bit with the ambassadors was great, too. I thought it was nice to see the political side of the job in addition to the Starfleet commander and Emissary roles--but that's definitely part and parcel with a station commander's job, and something you don't get to see to the same extent on a starship.

Exactly. And the sleeplessness. And the people starting to crack, and maybe missing things because of not getting enough rest. And the fact that when you're worried, you can't shut off, but you go through the things that happen in your head. But yes, even Federation ambassadors sometimes seem like a pain, and these ones were in danger. So it makes sense there'd be a lot of chaos, and plenty of demands, though time consuming and repetitive.

I also liked the fact that O'Brien kind of got to know Berat through his work before seeing him. To me, that was a great step forward in the character, and unfortunately one that we never really saw until after "Tribunal" in the series (where, in my opinion, even though the situation was NOT O'Brien's fault, I think he wound up really being embarrassed by the racial slur he was so used to using, and never used it again).

Yes, and O'Brien's respect for that work just by seeing the excellent repairs, and his unbiased desire to work with Berat, not caring about species etc. About work, and how with engineering, they spoke the same language.

It's really weird reading about the way Jake and Nog used to be, now that I know how they come out at the end of the series--how in the end of DS9 we have Nog the responsible engineer, and Jake the more laid-back reporter. It's really funny to see it highlighted in such dramatic fashion how they once were!

Haha! Yeah... It amuses me because Nog's greed and misbehavior drove me nuts at first... but then later, Nog turned out fine, and Jake because, to me, rather pretentious at times. And I like Jake's conscience, good, but childish. And how he wanted to do the right thing, but sometimes it was inhibited by his father. Now why would his son, who crawled all over the station with the Ferengi boy whose uncle was up to his ears in everything know anything about what was going on??

I also got a kick out of the fact that people actually "appreciated" Dukat after dealing with that a-hole Marak. And you know Dukat was just lapping up every last bit of it!!!

Indeed! I thought what he said about Kira in the end was hilarious! And in the end, Sisko and Dukat do seem to have a "system."

I find the Cardassian "hanging" to be rather horrid, especially after the story points out that it isn't lethal, that it goes on for days due to the Cardassians' neck structures. Yikes! So awful! And it's used by Marak for regular punishments, and on Cardassia just during brief political shift...

I guess to me the political thing seems more like a leader with many supporters who got into power because of the loss of the Wormhole, and those supporters had some ideas that were shared by a lot of Cardassia, more than various parties per se.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I thought the bit with the ambassadors was great, too. I thought it was nice to see the political side of the job in addition to the Starfleet commander and Emissary roles--but that's definitely part and parcel with a station commander's job, and something you don't get to see to the same extent on a starship.

Exactly. And the sleeplessness. And the people starting to crack, and maybe missing things because of not getting enough rest. And the fact that when you're worried, you can't shut off, but you go through the things that happen in your head. But yes, even Federation ambassadors sometimes seem like a pain, and these ones were in danger. So it makes sense there'd be a lot of chaos, and plenty of demands, though time consuming and repetitive.

Yeah, really. And that's a good point about Tilton remembering that the sleeplessness is going to wear on people as well, in addition to the stress. I know even from doing a full shift under stressful conditions without a break, it's tough. (And that's at a job that DOESN'T have life-or-death implications!)

It's really weird reading about the way Jake and Nog used to be, now that I know how they come out at the end of the series--how in the end of DS9 we have Nog the responsible engineer, and Jake the more laid-back reporter. It's really funny to see it highlighted in such dramatic fashion how they once were!

Haha! Yeah... It amuses me because Nog's greed and misbehavior drove me nuts at first... but then later, Nog turned out fine, and Jake because, to me, rather pretentious at times. And I like Jake's conscience, good, but childish. And how he wanted to do the right thing, but sometimes it was inhibited by his father. Now why would his son, who crawled all over the station with the Ferengi boy whose uncle was up to his ears in everything know anything about what was going on??

Childish, but wasn't Jake 11 or 12 at the time?

I can understand why, though, Sisko would've been surprised Jake knew about THAT.

I also got a kick out of the fact that people actually "appreciated" Dukat after dealing with that a-hole Marak. And you know Dukat was just lapping up every last bit of it!!!

Indeed! I thought what he said about Kira in the end was hilarious! And in the end, Sisko and Dukat do seem to have a "system."

Well, until Dukat cracked. But until then, yeah, they definitely do. I loved that whole bit: "You understand I still have to demand that you hand over the station and wormhole." "Uh-huh." "You understand I can't do that." "Yep." (Paraphrased.)

I find the Cardassian "hanging" to be rather horrid, especially after the story points out that it isn't lethal, that it goes on for days due to the Cardassians' neck structures. Yikes! So awful! And it's used by Marak for regular punishments, and on Cardassia just during brief political shift...

Yeah, that was creepy. The duration of the punishment actually reminded me of another sort of torture from our world. I mean no irreverence by pointing this out, but crucifixions could go on for days, in the worst cases.

Something tells me Marak got off on pain...and that he encouraged his crew to do the same--ewwwwwww.

As one of our resident 'Cardassians' I feel that I must put my 50p (after inflation) in. Unfortunately I don't remember much of this book and I have not seen a copy in years so this may be stretchy in places.

I bet you can still get hold of it at a used book store, or eBay. Those places tend to be great for out-of-print stuff.

The first thing I'll say is that this is one of my favorite early DS9 novels which is really saying a lot because they never quite agreed with me, mostly because they did not match with what I saw on screen.
Betrayal was a different kettle of fish altogether. It had an interesting storyline (a coup on Cardassia prime, a Cardassian who did not quite 'fit' in with his peers and a Bajorian traitor) some great characterization and a satisfing ending.

Especially for that early in the show, I think it DID do a great job with characterization. I felt like I could really hear all of the regular characters saying the things they were portrayed as saying; she really had the "tone" of them right.

I will have to go with the flow and say that Berat is one of the most compelling Cardassians that we have seen on DS9. A very talented individual (as I recall he had great engineering skills) with a likable personalty trapped in a terrible situation not of his making. His plight and the way he handled it could not hope but make you feel for the guy and it's good to see that he had his freedom back(even if it meant going off into the sunset with Gul Dukat!)

After what Berat went through--I'm sure he would've taken ANY opportunity that didn't involve further beatings!!

I definitely sympathized with him, right from the start--and I was very pleased to see him get his rank restored.

Even Malak works as a typical Cardassian Bastard Stereotype although when I first read about Gul Macet returning in the DS9R my first thought was ' hang on,didn't they kill Macet off years ago?'.

I STILL can't believe the cover artist used Macet to represent Gul Marak! I mean, look at how controlled Macet is in "The Wounded"--even going so far as to remove himself from the room BEFORE he can go off on someone. It just...wow, it doesn't work at all.

 

[Marie1]

Oookay... quotes are doing whacky things again...

I thought the bit with the ambassadors was great, too. I thought it was nice to see the political side of the job in addition to the Starfleet commander and Emissary roles--but that's definitely part and parcel with a station commander's job, and something you don't get to see to the same extent on a starship.

Exactly. And the sleeplessness. And the people starting to crack, and maybe missing things because of not getting enough rest. And the fact that when you're worried, you can't shut off, but you go through the things that happen in your head. But yes, even Federation ambassadors sometimes seem like a pain, and these ones were in danger. So it makes sense there'd be a lot of chaos, and plenty of demands, though time consuming and repetitive.

Yeah, really. And that's a good point about Tilton remembering that the sleeplessness is going to wear on people as well, in addition to the stress. I know even from doing a full shift under stressful conditions without a break, it's tough. (And that's at a job that DOESN'T have life-or-death implications!)

First of all- you need your breaks!!
And there is a lot of realistic stuff in Tilton's novel, isn't there? The suppressed irritation, the fatigue, the fear is all shown, even when internalized. Those things make work harder, and to behave diplomatically, or even react well takes a huge amount of discipline and self control. And there was something friendly, and paternal almost, about the way Berat took the chrono and comm Jake found, and fixed the comm. Like a kid bringing and adult a broken toy.

Childish, but wasn't Jake 11 or 12 at the time?

I can understand why, though, Sisko would've been surprised Jake knew about THAT.

True... though I remember a ton from when I was younger, and am working on a documentary by a guy whose experiences started when he was 12-ish. But if Nog was involved, then rarely would Jake be far behind. I dunno... I kinda think Jake should have blurted it out, but I'm glad he went back... and in time. Poor Berat... blarg.

Well, until Dukat cracked. But until then, yeah, they definitely do. I loved that whole bit: "You understand I still have to demand that you hand over the station and wormhole." "Uh-huh." "You understand I can't do that." "Yep." (Paraphrased.)

LOL! Yeah... so much better than Marak's screaming. Though if the Federation wanted to protect DS9, it'd send some of it's battle cruisers... oh wait, they don't have any...

Yeah, that was creepy. The duration of the punishment actually reminded me of another sort of torture from our world. I mean no irreverence by pointing this out, but crucifixions could go on for days, in the worst cases.

Something tells me Marak got off on pain...and that he encouraged his crew to do the same--ewwwwwww.

That's not irreverence, it's fact. Humans have done some pretty awful things to other humans...

That's probably true- Marak enjoyed the suffering of others, it was like a hunger or power to him. And did Berat ever suffer. And then there was that scene, that reminded me of... was it Full Metal Jacket? And then yeah! Those idiot crew members who went along with it, even though everyone else in Cardassian space was just as complicit. You can't kill people for leaving when they were told to withdraw because something that wasn't there before now is!

I STILL can't believe the cover artist used Macet to represent Gul Marak! I mean, look at how controlled Macet is in "The Wounded"--even going so far as to remove himself from the room BEFORE he can go off on someone. It just...wow, it doesn't work at all.

I would have altered an image of whatisname, the Cardassian with Macet that was "looking at the computers" maybe. Using a Macet-like image was puzzling, tho didn't Macet have a narrower face (since it is Alaimo...)?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Anyone else remember this one fondly?

Read it when it came out. No memories whatsoever, other than it was an early DS9 novel by a one-off ST author. For me, that's a bad sign.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Yeah, really. And that's a good point about Tilton remembering that the sleeplessness is going to wear on people as well, in addition to the stress. I know even from doing a full shift under stressful conditions without a break, it's tough. (And that's at a job that DOESN'T have life-or-death implications!)

First of all- you need your breaks!!

Oh, normally I get my breaks. I only do that in very rare circumstances.

And there was something friendly, and paternal almost, about the way Berat took the chrono and comm Jake found, and fixed the comm. Like a kid bringing and adult a broken toy.

That was a very strange and touching scene, the way those two interacted. Strange because it could've gone wrong in so many ways, and because for just a moment--it seemed like both of their fears were set aside. At least, when it came to each other.

True... though I remember a ton from when I was younger, and am working on a documentary by a guy whose experiences started when he was 12-ish. But if Nog was involved, then rarely would Jake be far behind. I dunno... I kinda think Jake should have blurted it out, but I'm glad he went back... and in time. Poor Berat... blarg.

I think Jake should've said something, yes--but I can see where he would've had trouble doing it. He was going to expose his own role, but more than that...Berat, who was most definitely his superior in age, had told him not to, and he had to be at least a LITTLE worried about what would happen if Berat found out what he'd done. (And in the awful mental state Berat was in, sadly, we don't know what would've happened if he'd snapped completely.)

That's probably true- Marak enjoyed the suffering of others, it was like a hunger or power to him. And did Berat ever suffer. And then there was that scene, that reminded me of... was it Full Metal Jacket? And then yeah! Those idiot crew members who went along with it, even though everyone else in Cardassian space was just as complicit. You can't kill people for leaving when they were told to withdraw because something that wasn't there before now is!

It wouldn't surprise me if a scene like that were in Full Metal Jacket, but I haven't seen the movie so I wouldn't know. Whatever the case, the beatings and other abuse were just AWFUL.

I would have altered an image of whatisname, the Cardassian with Macet that was "looking at the computers" maybe. Using a Macet-like image was puzzling, tho didn't Macet have a narrower face (since it is Alaimo...)?

Ahh, Glinn Telle. Yes, he sure has the "angry face" necessary for the role! And he seemed like enough of a jerk, too.

 

[Marie1]

Anyone else remember this one fondly?

Read it when it came out. No memories whatsoever, other than it was an early DS9 novel by a one-off ST author. For me, that's a bad sign.

I recommend a reread... I thought it was pretty good considering...

First of all- you need your breaks!!

Oh, normally I get my breaks. I only do that in very rare circumstances.

That was a very strange and touching scene, the way those two interacted. Strange because it could've gone wrong in so many ways, and because for just a moment--it seemed like both of their fears were set aside. At least, when it came to each other.

I'm really glad it was written the way it was... yes, there was suspicion etc. on both sides, but not only did it work out well in so many ways, surely like O'Brien's experience with Daro, meeting a nice guy, in the future it'll come back to him to know that Cardassians aren't all bad. And it was such an adorable scene! I can even imagine it if Jake was much younger...

I think Jake should've said something, yes--but I can see where he would've had trouble doing it. He was going to expose his own role, but more than that...Berat, who was most definitely his superior in age, had told him not to, and he had to be at least a LITTLE worried about what would happen if Berat found out what he'd done. (And in the awful mental state Berat was in, sadly, we don't know what would've happened if he'd snapped completely.)

I'm not thinking immediately after he found out... but after he'd heard Berat's side, if he'd been able to put out some feelers... or at least after he got back with his father, if his father hadn't dismissed him so quickly... Berat needed an adult his age or older to reassure him, talk to him about Asylum, get his story as per the great Federation justice system thingy etc. Why on earth after all that nonsense Marak pulled would they believe him? And who goes around while in hiding fixing things if they're a dangerous murderer? Think Sisko!!

[It wouldn't surprise me if a scene like that were in Full Metal Jacket, but I haven't seen the movie so I wouldn't know. Whatever the case, the beatings and other abuse were just AWFUL./quote]

Spoiler: Spoilers for Betrayal and FMJ

I was thinking about the assaults mentioned at first that Berat suffered, when they're attacked while they slept- someone holds them down and they're hit- that happened in the movie with a large soldier that seemed to the soldiers like a weak link. And like Berat, he tried to kill himself due to the stress only he suceeds.

I would have altered an image of whatisname, the Cardassian with Macet that was "looking at the computers" maybe. Using a Macet-like image was puzzling, tho didn't Macet have a narrower face (since it is Alaimo...)?

Ahh, Glinn Telle. Yes, he sure has the "angry face" necessary for the role! And he seemed like enough of a jerk, too.

Yes... I'm not sure what to make of him... I'm never sure if I like him and he got a bad break, or if it was all a ploy. I can see the Enterprise's systems being irresistable. But yeah, they should have used someone else for the art...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I'm not thinking immediately after he found out... but after he'd heard Berat's side, if he'd been able to put out some feelers... or at least after he got back with his father, if his father hadn't dismissed him so quickly... Berat needed an adult his age or older to reassure him, talk to him about Asylum, get his story as per the great Federation justice system thingy etc. Why on earth after all that nonsense Marak pulled would they believe him? And who goes around while in hiding fixing things if they're a dangerous murderer? Think Sisko!!

The trouble is, though...would Berat have listened to anybody but Jake? As it was, he didn't listen to anybody else until the situation was WAY out of hand.

As for why Sisko believed Marak...I put some of that down to the incredible amount of STUFF the station crew was having to deal with. They were fighting what amounted to a three- or four-front engagement (ambassadors, Cardassians, "traitor," terrorists) and I think that the results would've been different if they could devote their attention to one or even two of them.

 

[Marie1]

I'm not thinking immediately after he found out... but after he'd heard Berat's side, if he'd been able to put out some feelers... or at least after he got back with his father, if his father hadn't dismissed him so quickly... Berat needed an adult his age or older to reassure him, talk to him about Asylum, get his story as per the great Federation justice system thingy etc. Why on earth after all that nonsense Marak pulled would they believe him? And who goes around while in hiding fixing things if they're a dangerous murderer? Think Sisko!!

The trouble is, though...would Berat have listened to anybody but Jake? As it was, he didn't listen to anybody else until the situation was WAY out of hand.

Well, Jake would have had to approach him and say, we have this idea ... and this guy is going to talk you through it, and we're going to use a transporter so you don't have to go out on the station and be in danger... but yeah, it was a bit far gone by the time things shaped up.

As for why Sisko believed Marak...I put some of that down to the incredible amount of STUFF the station crew was having to deal with. They were fighting what amounted to a three- or four-front engagement (ambassadors, Cardassians, "traitor," terrorists) and I think that the results would've been different if they could devote their attention to one or even two of them.

True... but Marak was such an idiot... I know they had a lot going on but you'd think the potential to have a murderer on the station, even as a lie.

Why couldn't they scan the station for Cardassians? Unless he was in a conduit he could've been found. All they'd have to do is figure out where Garak was and rule him out?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Well...you could scan certain areas, but we definitely know within the context of the book that internal sensors were not functioning in certain areas. There were definitely places to hide where you couldn't be caught without a physical search.

 

[Anthony Sabre]

Betrayal is one of the few DS9 books I haven't read, along with the Rebels trilogy. Both on my wish list. Just ordered a Sony Digital Reader, can't wait!

 

[Trent Roman]

Skip Rebels. I don't know that anybody actually liked those books.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Marie1]

I have Rebels... I don't remember them being too horrible... but not exactly on the "need" list.

That's true about the search NG... I'm glad he held out as long as he did... I wish it'd lasted longer.