A lot is being said of the acting quality in B5 and other problems plaguing the show. I think it was a good show, and there were some good performances too, and I found the story really interesting, but the it making the list has less to do with the quality of the acting or writing, and much more top do with the way it fundamentally changed the way these stories are told--an arc over time, figured out more or less in advance, progressing toward an already known ending. That's not to say it had never been done before, but this is the series that provided the model for series to come. Others have done it better (much better) since, but B5 is the blueprint.
Best Space-Based Sci-Fi Shows in the Last 25 Years
- Thread starter Kooz
- Start date
Nope, my vote for B5 as favorite is precisely because it is my favorite, it ahs nothing to do with it paving the way for anything.
As far as full 5 years arcs outlined from beginning to end, what show has done it better since?
LOST - Nope, LOST was alot of fun, but, it's obvious they winged alot of it as they went along, it didn't follow a set outline. They did a good job of looking back at something and making it fit into the puzzle alot of the time, but, it certainly wasn't planned from beginning to end.
NuBSG - Nope, see LOST above, they didn't even think of the Final Five until after Season 2 ended.
DS9 - Nope, it didn't even start out arc'ed
Frankly you get what you pay for...ST: more money, better actors. Farscape and B5 had mostly mediocre to poor acting with a few standouts.
RAMA
Why does it have to be blueprinted in advance for the show to be good? Winging it ie Risk is part of the adventure.
"Risk is our business. That's the reason she was built. That's why we're aboard her!"
"Risk is our business. That's the reason she was built. That's why we're aboard her!"
Last year I watched B5 through again for the first time in, oh far too long, ten years maybe, and frankly I don't think the effects were that bad (But then I'm a Blakes 7 and classic Who fan so I can see past ropey effects) and I don't think the acting was that bad either (see B7 Who once more). Even those members of the cast who weren't the greatest actors were good in the roles they were given (Jerry Doyle being the prime example). Most Trek actors aren't stellar either, in fact an awful lot of TV actors aren't.
Anyway it won't be ten years before I watch it all again but it reminded me just how good the show was , and I'm likely to watch it all again in preference to the depression fest that was BSG.
And no I don't think you neccesarily need a planned arc, but look at all those shows that didn't. The X-Files collapsed under its own weight, as did BSG and Lost...well actually I think with Lost they just about managed to wing it and they never, ahem, lost me.
I had a curious relationship with BSG, it took me a while to like it because I did think it was somewhat blasphemous, but eventually I started to see what others saw in it (even if I liked precious few of the characters) but then the longer it went on the more it became apparaent that they were making it up as they went along. It started with Roslin's cancer cure (her cancer much like Kes's lifespan or Hoshi's fear of space travel is one of those things that looks good on paper but quickly poses problems if you envisage a long running series) which was so ludicrous I almost expected Beverly or Julian to pop out with a tricorder to announce the cure
I liked Season 3, even if Moore was just reusing the DS9 under occupation story, and even if some of the New Caprica stuff was like being hit over the head with a sledgehammer (It's Iraq, do you see, IRAQ!) but by the final season the house of cards really fell apart. The Final 5 felt so forced and random that I often wonder if the entire cast just had to draw lots. Still if they'd ended it with finding a nuked out Earth that wasn't actually our Earth, and the mutiny stuff I'd have loved it. Unfortunately they didn't, and the final episode just made me want to throw things at the telly
I'll give it better effects and better actors, but in every other way Babylon 5's a better show.
Now if anyone wants me I'll be in my bunk(er)
I didn't realise Lost was a space-based sci-fi show.
True enough, I wasn't thinking of that
I was just giving examples of scifi shows that were allowed to run their course, that obviously didn't get planned out, (and I kinda forget we were speaking of Strictly Space SciFi), since Kooz said it's been done since and better.@ newtontomato539, no, a show doesn't need to be mapped out in advance (or even be arc'ed) to be a good show, I was merely responding to it being done since and better, because I can't think of any show since B5 that did indeed map everything out in advance and do it better.
@newtontomato539: A show doesn't have to be mapped out to be good, agreed. Sometimes it is better if it is, sometimes not. Perfect example of where a pre-conceived arc would have been helpful: Heroes. Season 1 was awesome, then started to get lame, then seasons 2 through whatever just plain sucked a$$.
Although B5 was mapped out, it was far from perfect. There were a bunch of episodes that strayed from the storyline and felt out of place, there were entire story arcs that were ignored or dropped (an example being the telepath who became so powerful he was like a god--Straczynski said he wrote him off because he didn't like beings that powerful in his universe), and season 5 really dragged (mostly because in season 4 there was no guarantee of a season 5, so season 5 was sorta thrown into season 4, and when the show was picked up, season 5 was scraped together).
It is for these reasons I say other shows did it better. (And I think it's fair to reference shows outside space-based sci-fi, although those were the parameters of the top 5, they weren't of my last comment). Life on Mars, both in the US and UK did it better. BSG had, I think, and idea of where it was going and how it would end, even if the particulars weren't there (if I'm wrong, someone correct me).
That all said, B5 was a great show, had some good acting (and some bad), was a wonderful story, and improved the overall quality of the sci-fi that followed it. It deserves the rank it got... But I wish this whole conversation could happen on the blog page too so others from outside the forum could see there is a lot of debate on this topic! Oh well, we sci-fi fans seem doomed to our tiny corner of the interwebs... lol
Although B5 was mapped out, it was far from perfect. There were a bunch of episodes that strayed from the storyline and felt out of place, there were entire story arcs that were ignored or dropped (an example being the telepath who became so powerful he was like a god--Straczynski said he wrote him off because he didn't like beings that powerful in his universe), and season 5 really dragged (mostly because in season 4 there was no guarantee of a season 5, so season 5 was sorta thrown into season 4, and when the show was picked up, season 5 was scraped together).
It is for these reasons I say other shows did it better. (And I think it's fair to reference shows outside space-based sci-fi, although those were the parameters of the top 5, they weren't of my last comment). Life on Mars, both in the US and UK did it better. BSG had, I think, and idea of where it was going and how it would end, even if the particulars weren't there (if I'm wrong, someone correct me).
That all said, B5 was a great show, had some good acting (and some bad), was a wonderful story, and improved the overall quality of the sci-fi that followed it. It deserves the rank it got... But I wish this whole conversation could happen on the blog page too so others from outside the forum could see there is a lot of debate on this topic! Oh well, we sci-fi fans seem doomed to our tiny corner of the interwebs... lol
In no particular order:
Star Trek: The Next Generation - Did some of the best standalone episodes of any space opera in the last twenty-five years, had some excellent characters and what I'd still argue is the best leading man in any space opera series, Jean-Luc Picard. While I'd concede most of the best recent space opera has tended to be densely arced, TNG is one of the best examples of solid episodic storytelling (although the show's own light arcs, such as Worf's difficult relationship with the Klingon Empire, are also very good.)
Farscape - Perhaps my all time favourite. One could rehash at length the whys - the show's excellent acting, superb art direction, often wickedly funny (or entertaining or yes, grandly dramatic) writing, but one of the most important things about Farscape to me is that it's the space opera nerd's space opera show. It takes pretty much any given space opera story or hook, no matter how cliche, and occasionally rams two cliches together just to see what happens, or throws an old idea fora few loops. Farscape was space opera with an overdose on weird, and there's not a season I don't overall consider good.
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - Star Trek's best stab at doing complicated arc stories. Deep Space Nine's heart was not really in the exploration and unusual science fiction stories that Next Generation could do so well (hence Q often being used brilliantly on the first show and feeling decidedly awkward in this) but doing basically character arcs, galactic politics, and space war. Had its issues - like The Next Generation, it takes whole years to find its space legs - but generally excellent space opera TV.
Babylon 5 - Take away Deep Space Nine's budget and cast, but add a much denser arc system, and make the show's morally ambiguous and ethically challenged character a leading man, and you have this. Babylon 5 more then any of the other shows benefits from the long view - plot hints that are given resolution years down the line, mysteries that fall into place and make perfect sense. It's decidedly rougher then any other series on this list on pretty much every standard (you hear one JMS speech, you sometimes feel like you've heard them all) but it was the best at delivering on its arced content.
Battlestar Galactica - In the end there wasn't a plan. The convoluted mythology of the show and the Cylon's motivations grew murkier and less interesting as it progressed, but Battlestar Galactica excelled as a character drama and had easily one of the strongest ensembles in any space opera series, not to mention many of the best episodes and some of the most narratively satisfying arcs. Also featuring by far the best soundtrack of any space opera TV series.
With honourable nods to Firefly which really is tons and tons of fun but as Harvey said is a little on the short side to fit into a top five, and Futurama which probably would have easily made my list but I'm lukewarm on a lot of the series' post-cancellation content. Were I to make a top ten - or honestly, a top seven - they'd be in there.
I'd agree with that when discussing say, G'Kar post-epiphany. G'Kar was a pretty interesting character in the second/third/fourth seasons of the shows, Katsulas was consistently good at performing him, but by the fifth season he got pretty annoying.
I'm almost positive that Ron Moore and company had absolutely no idea how the show was going to end when they were making the first season, and pretty much all of the show's twists and reveals were invented as they went. I'd credit much of the messiness of BSG's myth arc to just this.
Star Trek: The Next Generation - Did some of the best standalone episodes of any space opera in the last twenty-five years, had some excellent characters and what I'd still argue is the best leading man in any space opera series, Jean-Luc Picard. While I'd concede most of the best recent space opera has tended to be densely arced, TNG is one of the best examples of solid episodic storytelling (although the show's own light arcs, such as Worf's difficult relationship with the Klingon Empire, are also very good.)
Farscape - Perhaps my all time favourite. One could rehash at length the whys - the show's excellent acting, superb art direction, often wickedly funny (or entertaining or yes, grandly dramatic) writing, but one of the most important things about Farscape to me is that it's the space opera nerd's space opera show. It takes pretty much any given space opera story or hook, no matter how cliche, and occasionally rams two cliches together just to see what happens, or throws an old idea fora few loops. Farscape was space opera with an overdose on weird, and there's not a season I don't overall consider good.
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - Star Trek's best stab at doing complicated arc stories. Deep Space Nine's heart was not really in the exploration and unusual science fiction stories that Next Generation could do so well (hence Q often being used brilliantly on the first show and feeling decidedly awkward in this) but doing basically character arcs, galactic politics, and space war. Had its issues - like The Next Generation, it takes whole years to find its space legs - but generally excellent space opera TV.
Babylon 5 - Take away Deep Space Nine's budget and cast, but add a much denser arc system, and make the show's morally ambiguous and ethically challenged character a leading man, and you have this. Babylon 5 more then any of the other shows benefits from the long view - plot hints that are given resolution years down the line, mysteries that fall into place and make perfect sense. It's decidedly rougher then any other series on this list on pretty much every standard (you hear one JMS speech, you sometimes feel like you've heard them all) but it was the best at delivering on its arced content.
Battlestar Galactica - In the end there wasn't a plan. The convoluted mythology of the show and the Cylon's motivations grew murkier and less interesting as it progressed, but Battlestar Galactica excelled as a character drama and had easily one of the strongest ensembles in any space opera series, not to mention many of the best episodes and some of the most narratively satisfying arcs. Also featuring by far the best soundtrack of any space opera TV series.
With honourable nods to Firefly which really is tons and tons of fun but as Harvey said is a little on the short side to fit into a top five, and Futurama which probably would have easily made my list but I'm lukewarm on a lot of the series' post-cancellation content. Were I to make a top ten - or honestly, a top seven - they'd be in there.
A top five list without Farscape is wrong.
I'd second both of these (with the caveat I'm not at all fond of Doctor Who or British television in general - if I had to put a British space sci-fi show up there it'd be Red Dwarf.)
I'd agree with that when discussing say, G'Kar post-epiphany. G'Kar was a pretty interesting character in the second/third/fourth seasons of the shows, Katsulas was consistently good at performing him, but by the fifth season he got pretty annoying.
Certainly part of why I love it. I don't watch space opera to be bored.
...and just as importantly that character's story was closely tied to Talia Winters, someone he had to drop off the show.
I'm almost positive that Ron Moore and company had absolutely no idea how the show was going to end when they were making the first season, and pretty much all of the show's twists and reveals were invented as they went. I'd credit much of the messiness of BSG's myth arc to just this.
While quoting myself might open some sort of time-space rift or something, I wanted to add to my list from earlier:
Planetes. Don't know why I didn't think of it before. I'm not a big anime devotee or anything, but I love this series. If Heinlein wrote anime, it would be Planetes.
Andromeda. Suffered from a low budget and too much interference from the studio. But, I think if RHW had been left alone and been given a decent amount of dollars to work with Andromeda woulda been a classic.
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Uh, there were never any plans to bring Ironheart back. Joe said that from the very first time that episode aired.
As for the discussion, IMO the writing and acting on B5 are both excellent, especially G'Kar in season five. Put your face in the book!
In the way of other shows, I think the writing on DS9 was top-notch, and I think the actors were good, but the way the series is shot seems a little sterile to me for some reason. Farscape is a show I didn't want to like but every time I watched it I couldn't look away. It definitely earns a place as among the best IMO. I second the Futurama vote.
As opposed to the mauve and earth tone colors as well as bland carpeting they used in TNG?
Frankly, all the treks are similiar.. seasons 1-3 meh to blah, seasons 4-6, pretty good, season 7 depends.
Even Enterprise , who had a much shorter run, knew it was in danger of cancelation and after season two , kicked it up a few notches.
My list if it "only" had 5 would be, and Im regulating to "space" shows vs "scifi" shows.
1. BSG (updated), it might have been the best character driven, well produced show Ive ever seen. Even if it was more a delve into the darkness of human phycosis then it was about humanities ablity to overcome. However, you want to view the show, it set standards of how a science fiction series can be made. Ive cried twice in the history of my watching science fiction, Spocks death scence and the end of BSG, if a series can illicit such reactions, you know its doing something right.
2. Farscape, by the end of season 4, I can see alot of repeated themes in this show, frankly , for how much they might have wanted to extend this show, it probably should have found its conclusions in that years series. To me this show was at its peak from 1.5 to the death of Zhaan or maybe Crais, I dont think some of thier characters were ever fully challenged or flushed out as they should be. It also stradled alot of character development, Chriton the protagonist, seems to be a unflinchingly heroic charater, to a selfish man, willing to sacrafice everything to get his way. Also, it remains annoying that EVERY episode the darn ship, or someone was just about to die. However, go compare the custume work from this show vs startrek tng universe, Henson company did a bang up job here. The graphics also are pretty nice , even in todays world. It tried to capture a feel and I think it did that. I dont want to bad mouth the series too much, its on my list as #2 for several reasons. For one thing, how can you not love a scifi show that would give shout outs to other scifi shows! Yoda, Worf, Klingons, trek even Buffy =). They also couldve done a few episodes centered around the secondary characters, growing them and thier stories, this might have extended the show in a much more non linear way they were trying to do.
3. Star Trek Voyager, I really think this was some of the most worthy moments of trek history from Seven of Nine to the end. It was truly a treat to see Sevens growth, the interactions of the crew around having a borg on board, plus you have to admit the show was ten times better when they changed antagonist to the Borg. The show really started off slow, but built, just like TSG and DS9 in my opionion, however overall I would rate Voyager as slightly ahead of both of those in its overal content. I just cant get over how terrible the start of ds9 was, I know some of you will disagree, but there is a reason they made as many changes as they did.
4. Firefly, I dont care if it was only on one year. It burnt bright it the short time it was on. I am still pissed off to this day what Fox did to this show. How SHORT sighted can one network be? This was never properly promoted, never given a good slot, never show in ORDER even!!!! Im sorry, but to this day, I just cant believe how ripped off we were. Imagine if this show lasted 4 years even!
5. Red Dwarf, Yes its campy, but go watch them, then come back to me and say it wasnt sci fi. Its cold outside, with no kind of atmosphere... I think we all have a little lister and a little rimmer inside all of us =).
Not on my list,
Dr Who.. its more scifi, then space based scifi, so it would be in my top 5 of my whole complete list for sure, as would star trek TOS, but if your judging a show by its ships, the Tardis, is more a vechicle to a destination and never a vechicle you lived in , for the show purpose anyways.
B5, story arc aside, I just dont think this is a top 5 show, either in the space side , or full list side. It never drew me in like other shows, I struggled to get through them at times. There is a reason you share story writing responsibilites at times, fresh perspectives, do help!
DS9, early DS9 was just the worst of trek IMO only, it grows, it grows dramatically , but I cant get past those first couple of years, the worst of DS9 is far more horrible then the worst of TSG or Voyager.
TSG, This grows as well, from borg/picard onward, the show is much better. There is a episode, where they focus on lesser officers for a whole show, its really quite unique in the trekverse, I wish TSG highlight moments were earlier and more often, but the best of TSG still holds well.
There is a HUGE list of other shows that I consider to be the best of scifi, but none of them are overally spaced themed, like xfiles, outerlimits (new one were the best non arced scifi on telivision really).
Not only is Earth 2 not really a space themed scifi, it wasnt even well made, I regretted less loosing that show, then loosing surface. Heroes was terrible after year 1 and I quickly abandoned it.
All the stargates are ok, but I dont think many would be considered as pure space scifi.
Even Enterprise , who had a much shorter run, knew it was in danger of cancelation and after season two , kicked it up a few notches.
My list if it "only" had 5 would be, and Im regulating to "space" shows vs "scifi" shows.
1. BSG (updated), it might have been the best character driven, well produced show Ive ever seen. Even if it was more a delve into the darkness of human phycosis then it was about humanities ablity to overcome. However, you want to view the show, it set standards of how a science fiction series can be made. Ive cried twice in the history of my watching science fiction, Spocks death scence and the end of BSG, if a series can illicit such reactions, you know its doing something right.
2. Farscape, by the end of season 4, I can see alot of repeated themes in this show, frankly , for how much they might have wanted to extend this show, it probably should have found its conclusions in that years series. To me this show was at its peak from 1.5 to the death of Zhaan or maybe Crais, I dont think some of thier characters were ever fully challenged or flushed out as they should be. It also stradled alot of character development, Chriton the protagonist, seems to be a unflinchingly heroic charater, to a selfish man, willing to sacrafice everything to get his way. Also, it remains annoying that EVERY episode the darn ship, or someone was just about to die. However, go compare the custume work from this show vs startrek tng universe, Henson company did a bang up job here. The graphics also are pretty nice , even in todays world. It tried to capture a feel and I think it did that. I dont want to bad mouth the series too much, its on my list as #2 for several reasons. For one thing, how can you not love a scifi show that would give shout outs to other scifi shows! Yoda, Worf, Klingons, trek even Buffy =). They also couldve done a few episodes centered around the secondary characters, growing them and thier stories, this might have extended the show in a much more non linear way they were trying to do.
3. Star Trek Voyager, I really think this was some of the most worthy moments of trek history from Seven of Nine to the end. It was truly a treat to see Sevens growth, the interactions of the crew around having a borg on board, plus you have to admit the show was ten times better when they changed antagonist to the Borg. The show really started off slow, but built, just like TSG and DS9 in my opionion, however overall I would rate Voyager as slightly ahead of both of those in its overal content. I just cant get over how terrible the start of ds9 was, I know some of you will disagree, but there is a reason they made as many changes as they did.
4. Firefly, I dont care if it was only on one year. It burnt bright it the short time it was on. I am still pissed off to this day what Fox did to this show. How SHORT sighted can one network be? This was never properly promoted, never given a good slot, never show in ORDER even!!!! Im sorry, but to this day, I just cant believe how ripped off we were. Imagine if this show lasted 4 years even!
5. Red Dwarf, Yes its campy, but go watch them, then come back to me and say it wasnt sci fi. Its cold outside, with no kind of atmosphere... I think we all have a little lister and a little rimmer inside all of us =).
Not on my list,
Dr Who.. its more scifi, then space based scifi, so it would be in my top 5 of my whole complete list for sure, as would star trek TOS, but if your judging a show by its ships, the Tardis, is more a vechicle to a destination and never a vechicle you lived in , for the show purpose anyways.
B5, story arc aside, I just dont think this is a top 5 show, either in the space side , or full list side. It never drew me in like other shows, I struggled to get through them at times. There is a reason you share story writing responsibilites at times, fresh perspectives, do help!
DS9, early DS9 was just the worst of trek IMO only, it grows, it grows dramatically , but I cant get past those first couple of years, the worst of DS9 is far more horrible then the worst of TSG or Voyager.
TSG, This grows as well, from borg/picard onward, the show is much better. There is a episode, where they focus on lesser officers for a whole show, its really quite unique in the trekverse, I wish TSG highlight moments were earlier and more often, but the best of TSG still holds well.
There is a HUGE list of other shows that I consider to be the best of scifi, but none of them are overally spaced themed, like xfiles, outerlimits (new one were the best non arced scifi on telivision really).
Not only is Earth 2 not really a space themed scifi, it wasnt even well made, I regretted less loosing that show, then loosing surface. Heroes was terrible after year 1 and I quickly abandoned it.
All the stargates are ok, but I dont think many would be considered as pure space scifi.
One using a writing staff or not isn't inherently better one way or the other. It's just different. In general I'd say season three of B5 is better than seasons one or two and that's when it switched from multiple writers to a single writer. Depends on what you enjoy in your TV I suppose. I don't think Twilight Zone would have been as good if Serling hadn't been writing 75% of the episodes; Blake's 7 series 1 was excellent with a single writer; and (ok this is a sitcom, but sort of sci-fi/fantasy), I Dream of Jeannie would not have survived if Sidney Sheldon hadn't written the entire second season by himself. I generally find myself more disappointed in a show when I see that the showrunner starts curbing his input than the shows where they start writing more.
It really depends on the writer. I don't think that The West Wing suffered when Aaron Sorkin was writing the bulk of episodes. Indeed, I'd say the show took a dip when he left.
But let's face it, when it comes to dialogue - JMS is no Aaron Sorkin...
But let's face it, when it comes to dialogue - JMS is no Aaron Sorkin...
I'm sorry but VOY aka TNG-Lite, wasn't 10x better when they intrdocued the Borg. From a story point of view it weaked the Borg further as a threat. Yes I know DW uses the Dalek's a lot but in that case the main protaganist "The Doctor" is from a race that is at worst equally advanced as the Daleks. Rather than the Federation which is less advanced than the Borg. VOY never drew me in like DSN did, as for which was better overall I would give VOY 3 stars out of 5 decidely average it did show flashes of greatness but sadly it was dull repative storylines that had been done many times before not only in ST but other Sci-Fi Shows. Shows like Farscaoe did at least try to do something new with similar stories. The best chracter in VOY was the EMH in fact I might go so far as to say if it wasn't for Robert Picardo the show would have been a lot worse.,
BTW don't you mean TNG not TSG?
But we as viewers are drawn to different elements of a show.
^I thought TOS finished 43 years ago. 
My five are:
1. B5
2. Farscape
3. DS9
4. Red Dwarf
5. nuBSG
I can't include B7 as it finished 31 years ago, and I'd say that Doctor Who is not primarily space based.
My five are:
1. B5
2. Farscape
3. DS9
4. Red Dwarf
5. nuBSG
I can't include B7 as it finished 31 years ago, and I'd say that Doctor Who is not primarily space based.
DW is a curious one, how to we define space spaced. Do we define it as shows which feature a star ship as the primary means of travel? Which in the case of DW the TARDIS could be considered that. Or do we define space based as shows which take primiraly onboard a star ship/space station?
In the case of shows like TNG and Farscape many episodes took place on a planet, whilst in the case of B5 fewer episodes took place on a planet.
In fact I can't think of many shows which took place almost exclusivley in space I think the closest we've had is nuBSG, many used a star ship to visit other worlds but does that make it space based?
Or by space based do we mean shows which do not feature Earth or if they do feature Earth it is only occasionally?
In the case of shows like TNG and Farscape many episodes took place on a planet, whilst in the case of B5 fewer episodes took place on a planet.
In fact I can't think of many shows which took place almost exclusivley in space I think the closest we've had is nuBSG, many used a star ship to visit other worlds but does that make it space based?
Or by space based do we mean shows which do not feature Earth or if they do feature Earth it is only occasionally?
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