Best and Worst of Star Trek: Picard

[evilchumlee]

Maybe we should try and crowd source a what really happened to season 2 timeline and accounts? Eeh, it would just be hijacked by bad faith hot takes denouncing anyone for listening to what Terry Matalas had to say...

It is one of the unfortunate things that Star Trek seems to really feel more than some other fandoms i'm aware of in that... the fandom can't agree on like, anything. The Star Trek fandom is so wildly divided it's nigh impossible to do something that "everyone" likes, and it's impossible to predict.

Prior to discussing anything online, I thought Picard S3 was the going to be "the thing" that united all Trek fans. I thought it was an absolute masterpiece of a love-letter to Star Trek that there would be no way fans could take issue with it.

I was... wrong.

 

[fireproof78]

The Star Trek fandom is so wildly divided it's nigh impossible to do something that "everyone" likes, and it's impossible to predict.

IDIC.

 

[evilchumlee]

IDIC.

Yeah. That's true. It's just odd it hits so much harder with Star Trek.

I at least dabble in many different fandoms and I don't see the division I do with Star Trek fans. There are certainly other divided communities... nobody likes everything, but I feel like Trek fans in particular have trouble agreeing on almost anything. Or at the very least, there tends to be something of a fairly clear majority that agree on things.

I don't see it with Trek. There are a few things that I think I can say are generally universally liked... I don't see too many who would take a stand to disagree that say, Wrath of Khan or First Contact are bad.

 

[cal888]

It is one of the unfortunate things that Star Trek seems to really feel more than some other fandoms i'm aware of in that... the fandom can't agree on like, anything. The Star Trek fandom is so wildly divided it's nigh impossible to do something that "everyone" likes, and it's impossible to predict.

I know some say the ENT days were bad, but I was around lurking the whole time and it just doesn't compare to how viscerally polarizing NuTrek has been. Aside from a few episodes like "Tuvix", there's a general consensus of what the great vs the bad episodes are of TNG / DS9 / VGR / ENT. Hell, throw in TOS as well for the most part, although I was suprised to see there were a few people that really seem to dislike "Assignment: Earth".

NuTrek has taken a markedly different approach to both continuity and the incorporation of real world politics than the Berman era did. So you have much more varied reactions depending on what people's ideological priors are, and what parts of Star Trek initially drew them to the franchise.

And of course, this BBS as well as Reddit has a much heavier leftist bias compared to the general population, so that could skew the perceptions of reactions here vs in other spaces, like blogs, YouTube, and Twitter.

Prior to discussing anything online, I thought Picard S3 was the going to be "the thing" that united all Trek fans. I thought it was an absolute masterpiece of a love-letter to Star Trek that there would be no way fans could take issue with it.

Yeah, initially it seemed limited to the "supporting anything with Kurtzman's name on it is betraying the anti-NuTrek cause" and "the wrong people like it" to something even more splintered.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah. That's true. It's just odd it hits so much harder with Star Trek.

I at least dabble in many different fandoms and I don't see the division I do with Star Trek fans. There are certainly other divided communities... nobody likes everything, but I feel like Trek fans in particular have trouble agreeing on almost anything. Or at the very least, there tends to be something of a fairly clear majority that agree on things.

I don't see it with Trek. There are a few things that I think I can say are generally universally liked... I don't see too many who would take a stand to disagree that say, Wrath of Khan or First Contact are bad.

At the risk of sounding argumentative, the Star Wars community is far worse, and Fallout isn't far behind. There's the challenge of feeling like we have to agree. on everything. But, when I first joined in some communities (Star Wars specifically), a lot of my opinions were outside the norm, preferring ROTJ over ESB, liking Attack of the Clones over ROTS. In Star Trek, well, I was not generally ok with TWOK, but I see how incredibly well made it is. But, it's not my top film.

In Trek, I watched my friend group rip each other apart with TNG vs. TOS, DS9 vs. TNG, and on and on. going to its full boil with Star Trek 2009 and the declarations of Abrams' being the anti-Trek.

But, I am used to being in the minority and don't see the majority consensus.

 

[HellRod]

I thought it was an absolute masterpiece of a love-letter to Star Trek

That would be Strange New Worlds.

 

[A Killer's Dream]

The Best: Cristóbal Rios, Q and Sir Patrick Stewart.
The Worst: BRIAN BROPHY DIDN'T COME BACK. And: The torture and killing-off of Icheb.

 

[evilchumlee]

At the risk of sounding argumentative, the Star Wars community is far worse, and Fallout isn't far behind.

Star Wars is probably #2 divisive, although I do think fans can agree on much more and I *DO* think there is a way to get an "Everyone Liked That" out of Star Wars. I think it's actually impossible for Star Trek.

Fallout is more just a disagreement on which game is the best. People can get zealous about it, but that's usually the extent of it. I also think it's possible for Fallout to get the "everyone likes that" achievement.

That would be Strange New Worlds.

I think it's a hard to be a love letter to Star Trek when it gets the single most iconic thing from Star Trek wrong, the Enterprise, and at this point seems to actively moving towards retconning Star Trek out entirely.

I don't see how that's a love letter

I *WILL* say though that SNW is probably the closest thing to the "Everyone Likes That" i'm talking about in Trek. I feel like there many, many less ardent SNW haters than there are Discovery or Picard. I don't really count Lower Decks or Prodigy because I feel like they're just largely ignored.

Except for that damn musical. That was actually painful.

EDIT -

I didn't mind Icheb's death. My only issue with it was not getting the actor back. It lessened the impact of the scene when I first saw it because I didn't understand immediately what was happening. I didn't know it was Icheb for a bit.

 

[HellRod]

I think it's a hard to be a love letter to Star Trek when it gets the single most iconic thing from Star Trek wrong, the Enterprise

There's nothing wrong with the Enterprise. It's a wonderful, beautiful update of the classic design.

and at this point seems to actively moving towards retconning Star Trek out entirely.

Nope.

 

[evilchumlee]

There's nothing wrong with the Enterprise. It's a wonderful, beautiful update of the classic design.

Nope.

You contradicted yourself in the same post.

But that's ok. I'll leave it at that.

 

[fireproof78]

Star Wars is probably #2 divisive, although I do think fans can agree on much more and I *DO* think there is a way to get an "Everyone Liked That" out of Star Wars. I think it's actually impossible for Star Trek.

Fallout is more just a disagreement on which game is the best. People can get zealous about it, but that's usually the extent of it. I also think it's possible for Fallout to get the "everyone likes that" achievement.

Oh, I definitely don't think so. The fans who hold on to New Vegas are treated very poorly by the rest of the fanbase an vice versa.

I also don't see the desire for consensus. I like TOS, my friend loves TNG and cosplayed as Picard and another 100% is down for Deep Space Nine. There's always been that variety piece. I think the closer to consensus is probably TWOK, and TOS, and even younger fans are jumping in on TOS.

And, again, I saw division so high with Abrams that people completely noped out of the fandom. They declared Star Trek and CBS so wrong, between Enterprise, and then that, they gave up. I think the other side is the insistent that continuity is so important that production teams must get it right. And that is off putting because not everyone values that continuity at the same level. For some, three colored uniforms, and two cylinders and a saucer are the Enterprise. The details are just not that important. And I think that needs to be recognized more than just "Well, you don't like Star Trek right," which I see the often push back, or the huge desire for consensus is actually pushing people out of participting in fan circles. "Oh, you're jus anti-continuity, anti-Berman, anti everything!"

I'm really not but I'm over the arguments. Fandom has become a drag.

 

[HellRod]

You contradicted yourself in the same post.

But that's ok. I'll leave it at that.

Nope. Didn't contradict myself in the slightest. SNW can exist perfectly fine right up along side TOS.

 

[Daedalus of the Dead]

Prior to discussing anything online, I thought Picard S3 was the going to be "the thing" that united all Trek fans. I thought it was an absolute masterpiece of a love-letter to Star Trek that there would be no way fans could take issue with it.

Well, it was the first to break the Nielsen top 10 and appears to have the highest AI of any NuTrek season. Stewart even beat Mount for best actor in the Saturn Awards.

It all pales in comparison to the issues fans can take with it though.

 

[HellRod]

Well, it was the first to break the Nielsen top 10

It was the first to be counted.

 

[evilchumlee]

I also don't see the desire for consensus. I like TOS, my friend loves TNG and cosplayed as Picard and another 100% is down for Deep Space Nine. There's always been that variety piece. I think the closer to consensus is probably TWOK, and TOS, and even younger fans are jumping in on TOS.

It's perfectly ok for people to like different things.

It felt... different "back in the day". Like take the 90s stuff. I know people who like TNG more, or VOY more, or DS9 more... but... they liked all of them, and the creators were able to basically make a thing that most everyone could at least like, even if it wasn't their favorite. NOW... you have people who don't even like some of the stuff coming out while they love others. Myself included. I think Picard was overall fantastic, Discovery is absolute garbage. Others think vice versa.

The problem is more for the creators... THEY have no idea what people want because there's no clear "this is what people want". No matter what they do, they're going to piss of some large section of the fanbase.

 

[fireproof78]

It felt... different "back in the day". Like take the 90s stuff. I know people who like TNG more, or VOY more, or DS9 more... but... they liked all of them, and the creators were able to basically make a thing that most everyone could at least like, even if it wasn't their favorite. NOW... you have people who don't even like some of the stuff coming out while they love others. Myself included. I think Picard was overall fantastic, Discovery is absolute garbage. Others think vice versa.

I don't know. I think.morw people were just silent or didn't watch it if they didn't like it. Now, with the Internet, there is this sense of missing out so people feel they have to try everything in Star Trek and it becomes divisive because the expectation now is Star Trek looks like a certain way.

Again, Enterprise dealt with this for years and was regularly maligned, culminating in arguments over canon and timelines. Sound familiar?

To me, with the varied reactions I've seen it comes down to two things: the have to watch everything and that Star Trek should only be like 90s Trek.

I personally think more fans should be willing to walk away if a show isn't working for them, Star Trek or no. But, I don't suffer from the completionist vibe. I know more about TNG or VOY from the Trek encyclopedia than necessarily what I watched. I prefer TOS, Kelvin and SNW over a lot of 90s Trek.

The problem is more for the creators... THEY have no idea what people want because there's no clear "this is what people want". No matter what they do, they're going to piss of some large section of the fanbase

Good..they should write stories they feel a passion about telling. Writing to the majority isn't good writing.

 

[evilchumlee]

Again, Enterprise dealt with this for years and was regularly maligned, culminating in arguments over canon and timelines. Sound familiar?

Absolutely. I'm also just a bit too young to remember but I know of the issues with the debut of TNG as well.

It's nothing new, but it seems a bit more dramatic now... although there is more being produced now, and what is being produced varies wildly from each other.

I personally think more fans should be willing to walk away if a show isn't working for them, Star Trek or no. But, I don't suffer from the completionist vibe.

Sure, but that also makes me sad. I like Star Trek. I want more of it. It sucks to get more of something that you like... but... you don't like it.

Good..they should write stories they feel a passion about telling. Writing to the majority isn't good writing.

Writing to the minority also isn't good writing. Good writing is good writing. I generally look at things from more of the business perspective of it all when it comes to content creation. From that perspective, it is good to write for the majority, to get the greatest amount of mass appeal to generate the most amount of money. At the end of the day, that's what all of this for.

Or at the very least, write to your demographic and/or fanbase. This where Trek has problems... there is no demographic, and while there's a fanbase... that fanbase doesn't clearly want one thing. Contrast to say, Marvel. Marvel has stopped writing for their demographic and fanbase over the past few years, and... to what should be no surprise to anyone... their projects generally aren't doing well. Marvel DOES have a demographic and fanbase that generally wants the same type of thing... Marvel just doesn't want to give that to them.

It shouldn't be difficult for a creator to take a Marvel property and take a pretty good guess at what their core demographic would want out of it. It's... almost impossible for a creator to take a Star Trek property and know what the core demographic wants out of it.

 

[fireproof78]

From that perspective, it is good to write for the majority, to get the greatest amount of mass appeal to generate the most amount of money. At the end of the day, that's what all of this for.

Write for entertainment first. That's it.

People think they know what they want but they don't know what could really work unless a creator decides to get creative.

I welcome that over writing to the majority, minority or fam base. Otherwise, we wouldn't have TNG, TWOK, TUC, DS9, ST09, etc.

Sure, but that also makes me sad. I like Star Trek. I want more of it. It sucks to get more of something that you like... but... you don't like it.

If I already have what I like why am I sad?

 

[evilchumlee]

If I already have what I like why am I sad?

Maybe you're different, but when I like something, I generally want more of it.

 

[fireproof78]

Maybe you're different, but when I like something, I generally want more of it.

I use to.

Pain and life experience have taught me its ok to be satisfied with what I have and for something not to continue.

I have TOS, DS9, Kelvin and more. What I like or not I have plenty in my Star Trek category.