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Berlinghoff Rasmussen

If anything, everything can change and a James T. Kirk will still be born, meet Spock, and gather a crew featuring Uhura, Sulu, Scotty and Chekov. (Even if this has to be another Chekov, years younger than the other guy.)

Time in Trek is not just safe from chaotic unstability: it's inherently stable.

Although perhaps only thanks to constant time traveling going on. After all, there's plenty of time (infinitely so!) to go back and fix things.

Timo Saloniemi
 
...Any real time traveler would know through experience that there is no butterfly effect. Time in Trek is robust enough to take the occasional death or disappearing continent or whatever. And if it for some reason fails to be robust on occasion, it's always possible to fix it with a bit of further travel till it is.

Timo Saloniemi

You're right, in Star Trek, the butterfly effect does not exist, which is why team Sisko can just barge in a space station from the past do all sorts of crazy things including taking part in a brawl, and eighty years later nothing changes, not even minor stuff.
 
Or then there are major changes, which result in the future we always saw. Without that added contingent to the brawl, Jean-Luc Picard would have taken up a career in carpentry, much in demand in a France now under a permanent spell of winter, and Elizabeth Janeway would have slain the Klingon Emperor in the big battle over Tox Uthat...

Timo Saloniemi
 
You're right, in Star Trek, the butterfly effect does not exist, which is why team Sisko can just barge in a space station from the past do all sorts of crazy things including taking part in a brawl, and eighty years later nothing changes, not even minor stuff.

It is also possible that any changes Sisko and crew might have made, were part of history all along - there was never a timeline where they didn't happen.

(You'll notice we never saw a historical record of Gabriel Bell before "Past Tense" took place...)

You can't prove this isn't the case, anyway. :shrug:
 
It is also possible that any changes Sisko and crew might have made, were part of history all along - there was never a timeline where they didn't happen.

(You'll notice we never saw a historical record of Gabriel Bell before "Past Tense" took place...)

You can't prove this isn't the case, anyway. :shrug:

Except that the very reason they (Kira and O'Brien) time-traveled is that Sisko's intervention made Starfleet disappear...
 
More probably, the original owner indeed had no idea the Enterprise would be there, and was planning on observing/looting the planet while it was undergoing its big disaster moment. "Rasmussen" would simply read the registry of the ship off her hull and wing it from there. Funnily enough, he doesn't use the name of the ship when first arriving, just the bigger-font registry number. Fuck, he doesn't know Picard's name until deep into the episode!
But when he does use it, very little has happened from the moment of his arrival. He just got taken from his beam in spot, into Picard's room for a private chat, & we never hear Picard called by name in his presense. It's possible he was, or he gleaned it elsewhere, but we never saw it.

So while his quirks are suspicious, & he could very much be cold reading all his knowledge of them as he goes (He certainly had to be doing some) it's also possible that the original ship itinerary had info on Picard's ship & crew, if it had info about what was going on there enough to merit a trip
And Picard would just respond with "You fail basic logic, buster. Me knowing that one choice leads to a bad outcome is already an improvement in absolute terms. You telling me how things fail when I choose that way will help me further.
Which assumes he would have the knowledge of how/why it fails. It could very possibly be the exact reason they're there to observe/study it, knowing what happened, but not specifics. Why else be there, to be a tourist sightseer of carnage?

Also, knowing that one choice results in a bad outcome wouldn't necessarily be an improverment if some other unknown outcome could be a worse one. It's still gambling, & certainly not cause enough to merit a legit future man sacrificing his own time line. We're still at manning up & gambling on what Picard has the most faith in doing. There isn't much basic logic that applies to gambling... except that you shouldn't do it, unless you have no choice.
 
Except that the very reason they (Kira and O'Brien) time-traveled is that Sisko's intervention made Starfleet disappear...

No, Starfleet had to disappear in order for Sisko to make the intervention, which in turn led to the timeline as they know it.

A classic predestination paradox.
 
No, Starfleet had to disappear in order for Sisko to make the intervention, which in turn led to the timeline as they know it.

A classic predestination paradox.

Wrong, Starfleet didn't disappear until after Sisko et al. beamed down to the planet, IE Earth of the 22nd century.
 
But when he does use it, very little has happened from the moment of his arrival. He just got taken from his beam in spot, into Picard's room for a private chat, & we never hear Picard called by name in his presense. It's possible he was, or he gleaned it elsewhere, but we never saw it.

It's just telling how he starts out without applying the proper names when one would expect, that is, off the bat. One is very much tempted to think he doesn't know the name of the ship or he would use it - and that it's sheer serendipity that him quoting the easier-to-read registry actually makes in-universe sense, what with the -D carrying a special meaning and all.

Since there is a cut between his arrival and his addressing Picard by name (which probably is written on the Ready Room door in-universe)...

...it's also possible that the original ship itinerary had info on Picard's ship & crew, if it had info about what was going on there enough to merit a trip

Would "Rasmussen" (the fake one, that is) have such info? He jeopardizes his whole mission by spending a lot of time trying to discover what would be worth his while in this time and location.

If not, did he just fail to read the itinenary attachments? Or was there no info to begin with? Rasmussen has fairly little control over the timeship: there's the return timer, but also that incident with the initial beam-in...

Which assumes he would have the knowledge of how/why it fails. It could very possibly be the exact reason they're there to observe/study it, knowing what happened, but not specifics. Why else be there, to be a tourist sightseer of carnage?

In the scenario where the rightful owner (possibly the real Rasmussen?) is there to clandestinely observe, with knowledge of the E-D, we have to explain why there is no "clandestine" there, and the timejump immediately attracts the attention of the very people at the focus of the incident. Did the fake Rasmussen fumble a setting? Did the real one make a mistake?

Or did the real one always intend to become the center of attention, for the purpose of gaining X (another confidence scam, an attempt to change history for selfish or atruist reasons, whatever)?

Or did the original and fake Rasmussen both lack knowledge of pretty much everything, and the timejump was basically at random? In that case, the thief could have chosen the destination, and there would be little or no information in the databanks regardless of whether the thief had trouble accessing those. Or the real Rasmussen or whatever his name could have chosen the destination either completely at random, or because it was the perfect test run: a visit to a place that did not matter because it would soon be gone? Better than observing the nothing of empty space, better than observing in sight of witnesses who would live to see the next sunrise. In that latter case, the fake Rasmussen actually saved the day, by apparently making Picard choose differently from the putative original...

Also, knowing that one choice results in a bad outcome wouldn't necessarily be an improverment if some other unknown outcome could be a worse one.

This doesn't result in any downside, or any excuse not to ask for that knowledge. If Picard has a reason to think there's a choice between two alternatives, he can already rule out one: cutting the red wire detonates the bomb, so it doesn't matter if cutting the blue one detonates two.

But of course cutting the red wire might kill Adam but save Bertha and Chuck, while cutting blue could maim all three but leave them alive, and cutting both would kill all three but painlessly, etc. And Picard knowing the results of cutting red would still be relevant to him making his choice, as he now has statistics, and is aware of where a dead Adam and safe Bertha and Charles stand on the continuum of possibilities. The knowledge never hurts, and it always helps.

It's still gambling, & certainly not cause enough to merit a legit future man sacrificing his own time line.

Why not? It's Picard's timeline, too, and he gets to make the choice: no hero has had qualms about that. Torturing the fake Rasmussen to gruesome death would be the path of least moral inconvenience, given that the man is a time traveler and him dying on his travels is just playacting of sorts - he's still alive back in his real life and all... And by all precedent, will still be born to that life one day.

Timo Saloniemi
 
But of course cutting the red wire might kill Adam but save Bertha and Chuck, while cutting blue could maim all three but leave them alive, and cutting both would kill all three but painlessly, etc. And Picard knowing the results of cutting red would still be relevant to him making his choice, as he now has statistics, and is aware of where a dead Adam and safe Bertha and Charles stand on the continuum of possibilities. The knowledge never hurts, and it always helps.

Except of course that if he goes completely blindly into the situation and chooses a random alternative, since he has to do something and no choice seems better than the others, at least he can soothe his conscience with the thought that he honestly couldn't have known that his particular choice would kill Adam. With such foreknowledge, he might be agonizing the rest of his life whether his choice to let let Bertha and Charles live at the cost of sacrificing Adams was the (morally) right one, when, say, he could have chosen the alternative that all three survive, but maimed. With such knowledge comes responsibility, after all.

But I'll agree that that's no longer related directly to 'solving the problem at hand', but only the aftermath.
 
Also, Picard isn't an idiot. He is well aware of a range of possible consequences for his actions, and would be perfectly capable of positioning the consequence offered by "Rasmussen" on that range. Once he has done that, the objective best for the planet is much more easily estimated.

If "Rasmussen" says "You did this, and the whole planet died", Picard knows it is much better to try the other thing, or any of the other things he can come up with, since there is nothing to lose there. If the time traveler instead says "You did this, and 12.8 percent of the people survived and now have spawned a whole range of artists, scientists and cruel dictators", Picard can put that, too, perfectly nicely in context and decide that this would be much better than everybody dying, but also not all that much worse than the best outcome theoretically imaginable.

The only thing that might really unnerve Picard here is if the time traveler instead says "You chose to do nothing, and X happened". Unless X = paradise, Picard would be back on square one, having to blindly choose from his range of actions, since there's always room for improvement over inaction. But again there would be no harm done, and no downside whatsoever to him asking.

Timo Saloniemi
 
What I find funny is Picard begging Rassmussen to give him a hint about what he ought to do. Seriously, there are only two possibilities, what kind of hint could he have given him, aside from telling him exactly what to do? (assuming Rass was legit) The whole conversation was ridiculous, you either respect the timeline (which Picard purported to do) or you don't.
When Picard shot that look at Rasmussen, the retort should have been: “You need to apologize to your crew Picard—asking me how things turn out is a de facto slap in the face to their competency, you understand that…right captain?”

That would have had Jean-Luc doing shoe gazing.

Then I tell Data that the real reason I am here is that the Borg have assimilated everything and everybody…I need him to come with to rebuild. The Borg are about to decloak with Romulan tech and absorb this ship and planet…and this pod is pre-programmed to return in moments. Choose!

No confession until I get back with the goods.
 
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What likely happens to the timeship is it goes back to the past then people from the future looks up old files about how Rasmussen was arrested in the 24th century and the following trial where he talks about trying to get back to 22th century New Jersey. They then send another ship back to the 22th century to be waiting for when the ship gets back their alone. They bring someone along to get in the ship and pilot it back to their future where it belongs.
 
What likely happens to the timeship is it goes back to the past then people from the future looks up old files about how Rasmussen was arrested in the 24th century and the following trial where he talks about trying to get back to 22th century New Jersey. They then send another ship back to the 22th century to be waiting for when the ship gets back their alone. They bring someone along to get in the ship and pilot it back to their future where it belongs.

In that case, then why did they let Ras steal the ship in the first place?
 
In that case, then why did they let Ras steal the ship in the first place?

He was destined to always end up in the 24th century. To stop him from stealing it would have altered the timeline. Which actually sucks when you think about the ship's previous owner or pilot. Did he know going backwards that he was in essence heading to his death but still had to do it anyways.
 
He was destined to always end up in the 24th century. To stop him from stealing it would have altered the timeline. Which actually sucks when you think about the ship's previous owner or pilot. Did he know going backwards that he was in essence heading to his death but still had to do it anyways.

For all we know the next guy who steals the ship after it got back to the 22nd century was also destined to do so. In fact, maybe before they could intervene they have to let half a dozen people seal and lose the ship afterward...
 
Anything is possible. Of course we don't even know if it was going to go to the past. Rasmussen could have been lying about that as well. I think Picard felt it was safer to simply not tamper with the fate of a ship that he has no idea about it's fate and simply remove the one thing he knows for sure he can't trust and that is Rasmussen. He was also working on a short time table. He had to make a command pretty quickly and ideally you would want to interview Rasmussen longer and maybe investigate the ship or contact Starfleet but he just didn't have the time.
 
He was destined to always end up in the 24th century. To stop him from stealing it would have altered the timeline. Which actually sucks when you think about the ship's previous owner or pilot. Did he know going backwards that he was in essence heading to his death but still had to do it anyways.

Rasmussen doesn't seem like the violent type. He may have just knocked the original owner out cold.
 
That is possible. Of course even doing that can lead to accidental death. If he planned to go back to the past and become a inventor I do wonder though if he would worry about this future guy trying to stop him assuming he left him alive. Of course why this future guy would allow his ship be discovered and why he would be interacting with this guy who is basically a nobody I do think lends credence to the idea the pilot knew Rasmussen was going to still the ship and he was fated to be knocked out or killed.
 
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