Being a starship captain...a big deal?

[Tenacity]

So starships like the Enterprise are clearly powerful enough to be included in fleets fighting invading Klingon fleets

Large fleets will usually include large, medium and small ship. Battleships (when they existed), mid-sized crusiers, down to destroyers.

What's so difficult to grasp about the concept of the first-rate Captain Kirk commanding the fifth-rate Starship Enterprise?

At 34 he could have been working his way up the ladder, commanding a older sturdy crusier. Even Picard wasn't give the flagship as his first command.

Having the flagship as your first command would be idiotic (except for Abrams-Kirk of course).

 

[Samuel]

He misses out on the big war with the Klingons, being sent to that backwater Organia instead. He's the second skipper to the DDM, to the Space Amoeba, and to the Omega Cure/Disease. In between those assignments, he mainly ships medicine and performs health checks on scientists. The one time he's invited to a parade, he admits he's not really needed there.

And the sort of ship he flies won't even be missed if she goes silent for half a year...

Timo Saloniemi

That's beyond ridiculous.

In "Errand of Mercy" Organia isn't a backwater but is considered to be on one of the natural invasion routes by the Klingons in to Federation space.

Being the "second skipper" to The Doomsday Machine, Space Amoeba and various other phenomena has a lot to do with simple coincidence and timing rather than any type of planning.

 

[MAGolding]

Tenacity said:

Large fleets will usually include large, medium and small ship. Battleships (when they existed), mid-sized crusiers, down to destroyers.

In TNG starships seemed more common than in TOS, where starships were rare.

In "The Best of Both Worlds Part 2":

HANSON: Your engagements have given us valuable time. We've mobilised a fleet of forty starships at Wolf three five nine, and that's just for starters. The Klingons are sending warships. Hell, we've even thought about opening communications with the Romulans.

"Redemption Part 2":

SELA: Ah. Then I can tell my superiors that a fleet of twenty three Federation starships is on our border for, what, humanitarian reasons?

"Descent Part 1":

NECHAYEV: There will be fifteen starships in this sector by the day after tomorrow. The Gorkon will be my flagship. You'll take command of task force three, consisting of the Enterprise, the Crazy Horse and the Agamemnon

"All Good Things":

NAKAMURA: This is a very delicate situation. I am deploying fifteen starships along our side of the Neutral Zone. I want you to go there as well. See if you can find out what is going on in the Devron System.

So in The TNG era Starfleet tasks forces and battle fleets are composed of various classes of starships with no mention of lesser types of Starfleet ships participating.

In the era of TOS starships seem to be more elite than in the era of TNG, and thus if there are any starfleet ships better or more elite than starships they must be quite rare and super elite. Thus starships would be either the highest and most powerful type of ships in starfleet tasks forces and war fleets, or else the second highest and most powerful type of ships.

"The Immunity Syndrome":

SPOCK: Personal log, Commander Spock, USS Enterprise. I have noted the passage of the Enterprise on its way to whatever awaits it. If this record should survive me, I wish it known that I bequeath my highest commendation and testimonial to the captain, officers, and crew of the Enterprise. The finest starship in the fleet.

Logically, for the Enterprise to be "the finest starship in the fleet" either there is only one class of starship, thus making it impossible for there to be a class of finer starships, or there are several classes of starships and the Enterprise is a member of the best and finest class of starships.

So either there are no higher types of Starfleet vessels than starships, and the Enterprise is the finest starship in the fleet, thus making it the finest ship in Starfleet, or else there are only a very few Starfleet vessels higher than starships and the Enterprise is the finest starship in the fleet, thus making only a few ships better than the Enterprise in Starfleet.

Tenacity said:

...At 34 he could have been working his way up the ladder, commanding a older sturdy crusier. Even Picard wasn't give the flagship as his first command.

Having the flagship as your first command would be idiotic (except for Abrams-Kirk of course).

By so doing Tenacity pushed one of my berserk buttons.

In an Earthly navy, a flagship is the ship that the commander of a squadron or fleet of warships commands from and which flies his command flag.

In any sort of space navy or paramilitary navy-like organization in space, a flagship should be the ship that the commander of a squadron or fleet of spaceships commands from.

According to search Star Trek scripts, in TOS only alien ships are described as flagships. Nobody ever called Kirk's ships, whether Enterprise 1701 or Enterprise 1701-A , flagships.

In TNG, DS9. etc., there are several cases of alien ships being described as flagships. There also cases of Federation starships being described as flagships while the commanders of various fleets or squadrons are aboard, the correct naval use of "flagship". They include the use of "flagship" for the Enterprise 1701-D when it actually is the flagship of a fleet in "Redemption Part 2".

Then there are the puzzling cases of the Enterprise 1701-D being described as flagship when it should NOT be called a flagship according to naval usage.

"The Icarus Factor":

PICARD: I don't know, and if you're asking me what I think you should do, I don't know that either. I can spell out for you, albeit crudely, what you are choosing between. As the First Officer of the Enterprise you have a position of distinction, prestige, even glamour of a sort. You are the second in command of Starfleet's flagship, but still second in command. Your promotion will transfer you to a relatively insignificant ship in an obscure corner of the galaxy> But it will be your ship, and being who you are, it will soon be vibrant with your authority, your style, your vision. You know, there really is no substitute for holding the reins.

"The high Ground":

FINN: I need someone better. I heard you were with the Federation flagship and I knew you had to be.

FINN: They are more valuable to me than an enemy. For seventy years we have shouted, and no one's heard us. Destroy the Federation flagship, someone will listen.

"Sarek":

PERRIN: These quarters are quite comfortable. The Ambassador and I were very pleased when we heard that the negotiations were going to take place aboard the flagship of the Federation.

"Remember Me":

CRUSHER: It's all perfectly logical to you, isn't it? The two of us roaming about the galaxy in the flagship of the Federation.. No crew at all.

"The Drumhead":

SATIE: Of course he did. Do you think J'Dan could have come on board the flagship of the Federation.and accomplished what he did without help from within?

"Ensign Ro":

PICARD: After what happened on Garon Two, she has no business serving on any starship, let alone the flagship, my ship.

"Man of the People":

ALKAR: I am grateful for the Federation's offer to escort me, but if I arrive at Rekag-Seronia on board the Enterprise, the armed flagship of Starfleet, my mission as negotiator of peace will be compromised. There must be a Federation transport ship somewhere in the area that could take me there.

"Chain of Command Part 1":

NECHAYEV: I hope we won't need to make that decision. We have decided to send the Enterprise to meet with the Cardassian representative and open talks. We're hoping that the presence of the Federation flagship on the border will send a message to their leadership about just how seriously we view the situation.

MADRED: Why you, of course. Picard. Jean-Luc. Serial number SP dash nine three seven dash two one five. Son of Maurice and Yvette Picard. Born in La Barre, France. Formerly Captain of the Stargazer, where you conducted extensive studies on theta-band subspace carrier waves. Don't look so surprised. How could we have designed a lure for the Captain of the Federation flagship unless we knew something about his background.

"Starship MIne":

HUTCH: I also hear that you're a musician. I certainly hope you'll play something for us. It's not often we get to entertain the command crew of the flagship. Oh, and speaking of command. Hello, Captain Picard.

"Force of Nature":

LAFORGE: You might say that. This is the flagship. We should be better than everybody else.

"Parallels":

NADOR: We were wondering the same thing about you, Captain. Why would Starfleet's flagship want to venture so close to the Cardassian border?

"Bar association":

ODO: I know these incidents are the exception rather than the rule, but if security breaches like these could happen on the flagship of the Federation, imagine the difficulty of maintaining security at an open port such as DS Nine.

Star Trek: Generations:

PICARD: They're just trying to decide whether a twenty year-old Klingon Bird-of-Prey can be a match for the Federation flagship.

In order to be the flagship of Starfleet, a ship would have to be the ship currently being assigned to stay at Starfleet Headquarters and be available to take the commanding admiral of Starfleet wherever he needed to go.

In order to be the flagship of the Federation, a ship would have to be the ship currently being assigned to stay near the Federation President's Office Headquarters and be available to take the commanding Federation President wherever he needed to go.

But there are other definitions of the word flagship.

flag·ship
ˈflaɡˌSHip/
noun

1. the ship in a fleet that carries the commanding admiral.
   • the best or most important thing owned or produced by a particular organization.
     "this bill is the flagship of the administration's legislative program"

flagship (plural flagships)

1. In a maritime fleet, the ship occupied by the fleet's commander (usually an admiral); it denotes this by flying his flag.
2. The most important one out of a related group. edit][/paste:font]
   The word flagship is often used as an attributive noun, as in:
   
   The company’s shop in London is their flagship store.
   Although this usage looks like an adjective, it is not, and should not be confused with that part of speech.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flagship

noun
1.
a ship carrying the flag officer or the commander of a fleet, squadron,or the like, and displaying the officer's flag.
2.
the main vessel of a shipping company.
3.
any of the best or largest ships or airplanes operated by a passengerline.
4.
the best or most important one of a group or system:
This store is the flagship of our retail chain.
adjective
5.
being or constituting a flagship.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flagship

So in the era of TNG Starfleeet personell use flagship in the traditional naval sense as is logical for members of a paramilitary organization like Starfleet. But Starfleet members also use flagship in the metaphorical and civilian sense, and use it to describe the Enterprise 1701-D as the flagship of the Federation. Which really, really, really annoys me.

It is possible that some Starfleet or Federation official or group has the function of officially designating a starship as the Flagship of the Federation, whatever that means, and did so for the Enterprise 1701-D. Or perhaps Picard was the senior starship captain in Starfleet and that got his ship the Enterprise 1701-D automatically designated the Flagship of the Federation. Or maybe there is a rule that whatever starship is named Enterprise automatically becomes the Flagship of the Federation. Or maybe there is some other reason why everyone in and out of Starfleet thinks that the Enterprise 1701-D is the Flagship of the Federation.

But one thing I am certain of is that I hate hearing the Enterprise 1701-D called the Flagship of the Federation or the flagship of Starfleet and I don't ever want to hear or read the expression "the Flagship of the Federation" except if referring the ship the President of the Federation is travelling on, or by people complaining about how silly it is or wondering what the heck it is supposed to mean.

And there is no evidence that the expression "the Flagship of the Federation" or any variation was ever used in the era of Kirk.

 

[Commishsleer]

Well said. I wish people who wrote new TOS stories of that era would look at the series as is, who Captain Kirk was at the time, than through rose colored glasses. Something TOS - Kirk based fanfilms could never grasp.

Yes the people who make Kirk fanfilms know less about TOS than TNG fans.

If you TNG fans can't accept BOT, Errand of Mercy, Journey to Babel, Elaan of Troyius,the writer's guide as evidence of Kirk's Enterprise's importance then perhaps I can apply your same sort of logic to TNG.
Yes Picard had the flagship.
1.The flagship was allocated to the oldest captain - the one nearest to retirement as a courtesy from his buddy Admirals at head office.
2. They put Picard mainly on diplomatic missions because they didn't think he could handle exploration or action.
Even then they didn't trust that Picard could do the diplomatic job alone and appointed him a counselor (who was also pretty useless)
3. The admiralty assigned pretty-boy Riker to the Enterprise to do all the action stuff assuring him that Picard would retire soon and he would then get the captaincy.. He wouldn't even allow Picard to beam down to a planet if there were any possibility of conflict or action.

Thus I conclude Picard was a second-rate captain on a first-rate ship.

 

[johnnybear]

There were a lot of references to spaceship in the original series before they got the nod and changed it to Starship!
JB

 

[Tenacity]

In TNG starships seemed more common than in TOS, where starships were rare.

The specific class of ship that Kirk commanded was relatively few in number (baker's dozen), the size of Starfleet in general was never mentioned

Then there are the puzzling cases of the Enterprise 1701-D being described as flagship when it should NOT be called a flagship according to naval usage.

My take is that the Enterprise D wasn't a flagship in the sense of a command ship, but rather a flagship as in a showpiece.

Thus I conclude Picard was a second-rate captain on a first-rate ship

Picard did seem to have more than a few odd ideas for the commander of a big hurkin' death machine like the Enterprise.

 

[Samuel]

I think you are waaaayyy over analyzing things Tenacity.

It is clear in Star Trek that people throw around the terms like "starship" and "flagship" pretty half hazardly with no real regard as to the technically accurate meanings of those terms.

Just like members of the media in our day and age routinely throw around terms like "tank" and "battleship" with no regards as to whether those terms describe a military vehicle accurately.

 

[Shawnster]

The Enterprise was visually identified by implication as Constitution Class on screen in Space Seed. The technical journal Khan was reading was labeled as such.

The Enterprise was visually identified on screen as a heavy cruiser in Star Trek III (maybe I and II also) via bridge graphics.

We never saw other Starfleet ships, but we saw the Woden and the various smaller civilian craft. Then there was the ship that picked up the Medusan. And the Antares. They were implied in original run and seen in TOS-R.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I remember a line from "Bread and Circuses", where the proconsul was having a conversation with Captain Merrick, basically asking him if Kirk would "break", by going against his principles. Merrick replied that Kirk was a "starship captain", meaning that he and others in his position were special...the best of the best. Given that we're dealing with TOS, do you think that there was indeed a delineation between "spaceship captain" and "starship captain"? In fact, do you think that the track you were on during one's Academy years purposely weeded out candidates for certain roles? Could this be the reason for Janet Lester's anger in the "Turnabout Intruder", not because there was an actual prohibition against females, but that, in a merit-based society, being a "starship captain" is, by default, skewed towards males, and therefore seen as an "exclusive club"?

No. Lester was unstable thanks to her jealousy and obsessive tendencies. If you remember, Lester is the only one who seems to think there was some gender bias preventing women from becoming captain--this is never supported or confirmed by anyone else on screen. Moreover, Kirk's parting line about Lester could have had a life as rich as any woman could have been taken to mean she wasted her life obsessing on revenge against Kirk, instead of just moving on. Lester's gender line appears to tie into the series-supported idea that in Kirk's life as a captain, there would be no place for her--or any woman, as he's "married" to his ship and duty. Kirk certainly laments this as early as "The Naked Time" and continues to mention his loneliness in "Requiem for Methuselah"--one of the last episodes, so that suggests that Lester could have been referring to Kirk's job as being a barrier to the love she thought they were destined to share, presumably forever. Its for this reason I found the entire premise of the Star Trek Continues fan film episode "Embracing the Winds" to be based on a problem that never existed, all due to a line of dialogue which has been consistently misread for generations.

Someone else mentioned Ronald Tracey, but he was--as Kirk noted in his log--"commanded by Ron Tracey, one of the most experienced captains in Starfleet" and we can assume one does not reach that level of experience being a random officer or raving nutjob. It took fear induced by a catastrophic event to trigger his downfall, so there's no reason to believe he somehow slipped through the cracks and ended up in the captain's chair.

 

[johnnybear]

I've always thought that the Enterprise D looked like a CGI cartoon compared to the TOS model! It's red lights and curvy shape didn't look right somehow!
JB

 

[Maurice]

The Enterprise was visually identified by implication as Constitution Class on screen in Space Seed. The technical journal Khan was reading was labeled as such.

The Enterprise was visually identified on screen as a heavy cruiser in Star Trek III (maybe I and II also) via bridge graphics.

We never saw other Starfleet ships, but we saw the Woden and the various smaller civilian craft. Then there was the ship that picked up the Medusan. And the Antares. They were implied in original run and seen in TOS-R.

It's also visibly identified as a SPACE CRUISER on the ship graphics seen in "The Enterprise Incident", which actually can be made out on film (if likely not on SD TVs), unlike the impossible-to-see "Constitution" designation on that phaser graphic.

 

[Tenacity]

do you think that there was indeed a delineation between "spaceship captain" and "starship captain"

The difference between commanding a civilian ship verses a military ship?

If you remember, Lester is the only one who seems to think there was some gender bias preventing women from becoming captain--this is never supported or confirmed by anyone else on screen.

Supported by there was only one woman in TOS above the rank of lieutenant.

Kirk never once assigned a woman to command the ship when he beamed down to a planet, more than a few of the male officers were.

Uhura assumed command in a TAS episode, but only after all the male officers were incapacitated.

 

[Commishsleer]

Just how many men did we see above the rank of lieutenant in TOS?
There was Spock, McCoy, Scotty, 2 guys in security. I don't count the captains of other ships because we didn't get to see their crew. I suppose there was the doctor on Tracey's ship. Are we counting Number One as well - is she TOS?

I'm conceding all the Captains, Admirals, Commodores we saw were male.

Kirk even left Chekov in charge when Uhura was present and he was an ensign.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Supported by there was only one woman in TOS above the rank of lieutenant. Kirk never once assigned a woman to command the ship when he beamed down to a planet, more than a few of the male officers were.

That does not prove Lester's claim had any merit. Not seeing something does not automatically mean it does not exist. No one on screen supported her claim, and that's the only legitimate evidence anyone should use.

Uhura assumed command in a TAS episode, but only after all the male officers were incapacitated.

...and in that episode--"The Lorelei Signal"--the only thing that would have prevented Uhura from taking command was not her gender, but the same rank protocols that applied to Sulu, Arex, or any lower-ranked officer while a superior was in command at the time (In that case, Scotty). Gender was not the issue.

 

[matthunter]

Yes the people who make Kirk fanfilms know less about TOS than TNG fans.

The folk who make Kirk fanfilms are also more likely to be more biased against counterarguments than Trump is.

 

[Tenacity]

Are we counting Number One as well - is she TOS?

Her rank is unknown. At the time of The Cage the Enterprise had a crew of just over two hundred, so it's possible that she was a Lieutenant. If she were a Lt. Commander she'd only be the second female in TOS with that rank.

-the only thing that would have prevented Uhura from taking command was not her gender, but the same rank protocols that applied to Sulu, Arex, or any lower-ranked officer

Okay, then why was a male ensign placed in command/OOD when she (a Lieutenant) was also on the bridge at the time?

In The Lorelei Signal, if there had been a single bottom of the totem pole in rank male officer who wasn't incapacitated, I honestly don't think Uhura would have been in command. Not in a TOS era show.

 

[GNDN18]

Her rank is unknown.

It's just that I can't get used to having a woman on the bridge. No offense, Lieutenant. You're different, of course.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Her rank is unknown. At the time of The Cage the Enterprise had a crew of just over two hundred, so it's possible that she was a Lieutenant. If she were a Lt. Commander she'd only be the second female in TOS with that rank.

"Number One" was also recognized as the 2nd most experienced officer aboard, and the "Number One" title returned in TNG to reinforce that as a second in command title.

Okay, then why was a male ensign placed in command/OOD when she (a Lieutenant) was also on the bridge at the time?

You do realize the captain can occasionally give an ensign a nod--after a serious situation has passed ("Journey to Babel"). That was a one-off, as Chekov was never given true "command" of the ship.

In The Lorelei Signal, if there had been a single bottom of the totem pole in rank male officer who wasn't incapacitated, I honestly don't think Uhura would have been in command. Not in a TOS era show.

There's no on screen evidence to support that, and again, Uhura was in the same position as any lower ranked officer needing to take over when the commander is incapacitated. There is nothing suggesting an available male would step in over her.

 

[Tenacity]

No offense, Lieutenant. You're different, of course.

I stand corrected, and we're back to only one woman above the rank of lieutenant during TOS.

"Number One" was also recognized as the 2nd most experienced officer aboard, and the "Number One" title returned in TNG to reinforce that as a second in command title

There no doubt that she was the first officer.

 

[GNDN18]

I stand corrected, and we're back to only one woman above lieutenant.

That line was cut from “The Menagerie” so isn’t as well know. I just remember my jaw dropping when I heard it the first time at “An Evening with Gene Roddenberry” in 1980. It was…anachronistic.

If anything, her rank seems to support that the earliest incarnation of Star Trek was the 19th century Royal Navy in space with (post) captains and lieutenants and nothing else by way of officers.