Battle of the (Andorian) Sexes

[The Wormhole]

There are four sexes in the Andorian species. zhen (pure male), shen (mainly male, though as some female qualities), Thaan (pure female) and chan (mainly female with some male qualities).

Actually, it's the opposite. Thaan is purely male (Enterprise novels make this Shran's gender) chan is mainly male with female qualities (Shar in the DS9 novels is of this gender). Zhen is mostly female (Shar's mother or "zhavey" is this gender) and shen is mainly female with male qualities (I have no examples of this one).

 

[Therin of Andor]

(I have no examples of this one).

Shar's bondmate, Dizhei.

i have been doing research into this at the moment for some writing. And while i found some interesting information and this forum, I have decided to go for this:

There are four sexes in the Andorian species. zhen (pure male), shen (mainly male, though as some female qualities), Thaan (pure female) and chan (mainly female with some male qualities).

You did some research, but then ditched most of it to mix up the terms completely?

During the conception of an Andorian child, the DS9 novel "Unity" by SD Perry has established that the male-but-androgenous chan adds his gametes to those of the female-but-androgenous shen, which have already been fertilized by the alpha male thaan. The zygote is then implanted into the ultra-feminine zhen's pouch.

We have speculated here that hormones from the zhen probably continue to influence the developing embryo. Otherwise she's simply an egg carrier. With the strong ties shown in the literature between Andorian offspring and their zhaveys, it seems to me that hormonal connections might explain that.

But it is a topic that is for each person to decide what option they prefer.

Well, for those who read modern-day Treklit, it would probably help in their overall enjoyment if they embraced the Treklit interpretation.

 

[david lowbridge]

You did some research, but then ditched most of it to mix up the terms completely?

no, i actually was using a source that mixed them up and then found another one late last night that had them completely the other way around. thanks for clearing up which was the right way round. It doesn't take much to change a word.

As for ditching most of it, there is no conclusive cannon source that gives that. in fact there is evidence to say it just requires two (Enterprise). I did say it is my own interpretation as some people say there are only two genders.

 

[JRoss]

The whole four sex idea is terrible. That is a really inefficient system that would never come about. The idea that was fleshed out in the novels reminds me of how the Star Wars EU is full of things that take one detail mentioned in movies and runs with them way too literally. Data was probably mentioning a polygamous situation that might not have even applied to all Andorians.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

The whole four sex idea is terrible. That is a really inefficient system that would never come about.

That's part of the point. The four genders makes conceiving difficult and the window of fertility has been narrowing for generations, which ultimately means that the Andorians are dying out.

It gives the species a new perspective. Once a powerhouse of the Quadrant, a founding member of the Federation, a proud and honourable race, who are slowly dying out due to their genetics. It's something worth exploration.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

This is however always a topic people will agree to disagree about, unless they try and force their own opinions down your throat.

Until it is established on screen that the Andorians have two/three/four/nine genders, its something that will be debated for a while.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

"Purely male?" "Mainly female?" I haven't read the TrekLit stories dealing with this, but it doesn't make much sense to me. I wouldn't think a chan is partly male and partly female...I'd think a chan is a chan.

They might look that way to other two-gendered species, but they'd actually be their own separate gender, not half-and-half. Isn't the whole "mainly male with female qualities" just a convenient way to explain what a chan (or thaan, or zhen or shen) is to species who don't have an analogous gender?

 

[The Wormhole]

"Purely male?" "Mainly female?" I haven't read the TrekLit stories dealing with this, but it doesn't make much sense to me. I wouldn't think a chan is partly male and partly female...I'd think a chan is a chan.

They might look that way to other two-gendered species, but they'd actually be their own separate gender, not half-and-half. Isn't the whole "mainly male with female qualities" just a convenient way to explain what a chan (or thaan, or zhen or shen) is to species who don't have an analogous gender?

Honestly, thinking of them by those descriptions helps me wrap my head around the concept. Besides, chans and thaans are always referred to as he/him while zhens and shens are she/her.

 

[captcalhoun]

The whole four sex idea is terrible. That is a really inefficient system that would never come about.

That's part of the point. The four genders makes conceiving difficult and the window of fertility has been narrowing for generations, which ultimately means that the Andorians are dying out.

It gives the species a new perspective. Once a powerhouse of the Quadrant, a founding member of the Federation, a proud and honourable race, who are slowly dying out due to their genetics. It's something worth exploration.

it's stupid becuase unless they had multiple births in every generation or had REALLY huge families, they'd've died out before they ever got near space travel

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Perhaps its a 'recent' development due to a change in the environment on Andoria, or venturing into space to begin with, or some kind of breakdown in their genes.

There was the species in ENT that was suffering from something similar (I think the episode was "Dear Doctor", though not 100% sure).

It's no more daft than a sub-species who are white skinned, telepathic and blind.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

It's no more daft than a sub-species who are white skinned, telepathic and blind.

Apples and pomegranates, Bry. Honestly, within the Trek verse, white skin, blindness and telepathy are a lot less unusual/uncommon than a four-gendered species, so that comparison really doesn't work.

Honestly, thinking of them by those descriptions helps me wrap my head around the concept. Besides, chans and thaans are always referred to as he/him while zhens and shens are she/her.

Fair enough. That still allows for it simply being an easy way to explain the roles each gender has in reproduction.

Perhaps its a 'recent' development due to a change in the environment on Andoria, or venturing into space to begin with, or some kind of breakdown in their genes.

Or maybe the ancient humanoid Progenitors just wanted to do something different.

 

[Paper Moon]

It's no more daft than a sub-species who are white skinned, telepathic and blind.

Apples and pomegranates, Bry. Honestly, within the Trek verse, white skin, blindness and telepathy are a lot less unusual/uncommon than a four-gendered species, so that comparison really doesn't work.

I think the point that Bry is making is that it is a bit odd, evolutionarily speaking, that the Aenar developed quite so differently from their non-Aenar Andorian cousins. Yes, of course, white skin, telepathy and blindness (though to a lesser extent) are not uncommon in the Trekverse, but all three traits together in a subspecies of a blue-skinned, non-telepathic, non-blind species? That's a little odd, particularly the telepathic bit.

So if we assume that the Aenar did indeed evolve naturally, then I'm inclined to agree with Bry that a four-gendered paradigm, er, model, is not that crazy either.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

I don't have a problem with the four genders, actually. I just don't agree with his argument. It's just a bad comparison in my opinon, that's all.

I don't see how "The Aenar are unusual too, so the four-gendered paradigm makes sense" is a valid argument.

 

[Paper Moon]

I agree that it's a weak argument, but my feeling, at least (can't speak for Bry), is that the Aenar's existence suggests that our rules for understanding evolution, as it happens here on Earth, are less valid on Andor(ia), and so the argument that a four-gendered paradigm doesn't make evolutionary sense is weakened.

For what it's worth, though, I actually pretty much agree with your point, too, Tiberius; we do see telepathy and crazy stuff like that in the Trek verse way more than you would expect, but gender, with about three exceptions (the J'Naii, the Cogenitor's species and the Founders are who come to mind), is almost always the same. So that would also appear to make four genders less plausible. I just thought that Bry had a valid point too.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

I never care about arguments that something in Trek doesn't make sense. As long as things are relatively consistent in-universe, it doesn't really matter.

I also don't care (no offense to anyone) what anyone says about evolution in Trek since I don't believe in evolution to begin with. In-universe, it's a fact in Trek, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest when something in Trek happens that contradicts modern evolutionary theories. (Although the episode that shall not be named still bothers me...) Not looking to start a debate or anything, just explaining my thought processes.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

The Aenar comment was more a comment on how things are created and thrown into Trek canon for the purpose of the story. ENT could have easily used a Deltan, Betazoid, Napean, Ullian as the captive. But instead a whole new sub-species of Andorians are created and introduced for a few episodes, even though they've never been hinted at in the past.

Its just one of those things that people try to use canon to say things don't exist. But simply because it's never been mentioned doesn't mean that it can't be something different from what humanity considers 'normal' (if that make sense?). Until a line is included in future Trek that puts the issue to bed, I see how both sides could be argued (though have my preference for how things are).

Trek is Science-Fiction (emphasis on the fiction), which means its meant to entertain and provoke a response, so one way of doing that might to include a character, whose species has a long and proud heritage in the UFP, who has to face the fact that unless something changes drastically then their people will die out and be nothing more than a memory. It raises all kinds of questions about mortality and the mark people make in the world, how they'll be remembered and if they went down with honour, or just how desperate a species might get to survive--no matter the cost--and having to live with the fact that they are dying out because of the way they are.

To me, it makes a compelling and interesting aspect of ones character (and their species) to explore.

 

[Paper Moon]

But simply because it's never been mentioned doesn't mean that it can't be something different from what humanity considers 'normal' (if that make sense?).

...

To me, it makes a compelling and interesting aspect of ones character (and their species) to explore.

This.

And Tiberius, I appreciate your taking the time to explain your thought process, which, while not identical to mine, certainly makes sense. (And I really appreciate the non-confrontational way you presented it.)

If I may, I'm just gonna take a moment to gripe that TPTB never once alluded back to Data's line about marriage in groups of four, particularly in season 4 of Enterprise, at which point they had gotten really good about dropping little easter eggs. And Memory Alpha was around then, too, IIRC. They could've just read through the entry on Andorians, noticed Data's bit, and mentioned something off hand, and it would have added depth to the characters and species, like Bry said. Oh well.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

Good points, Bry. It does open interesting possibilities.

Its just one of those things that people try to use canon to say things don't exist. But simply because it's never been mentioned doesn't mean that it can't be something different from what humanity considers 'normal' (if that make sense?). Until a line is included in future Trek that puts the issue to bed, I see how both sides could be argued (though have my preference for how things are).

Absolutely.

They certainly could have mentioned it, PaperMoon/. It could have been a neat little easter egg, whether they explained it with four genders or not.

And Tiberius, I appreciate your taking the time to explain your thought process, which, while not identical to mine, certainly makes sense. (And I really appreciate the non-confrontational way you presented it.)

You're welcome. And thank you.

 

[Sci]

I think the point that Bry is making is that it is a bit odd, evolutionarily speaking, that the Aenar developed quite so differently from their non-Aenar Andorian cousins. Yes, of course, white skin, telepathy and blindness (though to a lesser extent) are not uncommon in the Trekverse, but all three traits together in a subspecies of a blue-skinned, non-telepathic, non-blind species?

Is the idea of there being variation in something as genetically minor as skin color really all that implausible, whether by itself or in combination with other, more substantive traits?

It's just skin color. Hell, in real life, skin color doesn't even stay the same at all times for a single individual.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Well for the Aenar is seems to class them as a 'sub-species' rather than just another race of Andorians.

But this diverses from the inital question of what people prefer and/or think about the Andorian sexes. I kinda wish I'd left the poll open.