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Spoilers Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice - Grading & Discussion

Grade the movie...


  • Total voters
    224
The common criticisms seems to be that it's too dark, serious and lacking in fun. And also that the story is too cluttered and the character motivations don't always make sense.

What I'm hearing a lot is that it's slow-paced and meandering and takes too long to get to the action, and that its attempts to address points of substance are sabotaged by lack of nuance. So it's not just that it's serious, it's that its attempts at seriousness don't succeed.

I'm also hearing near-universal scorn for Eisenberg's Luthor. One review called him a "Schumacheresque" villain, although another acknowledged that at least his presence brought some trace of comic relief to the otherwise bleak proceedings.

Reviewers seem split on Gal Gadot, though. A number are dismissing her as "blank" or mediocre, but others find her presence to be the bright spot of the film, despite the fact that she's essentially tacked on to the story.
 
I'm finding the reviews saying the film's dull but Affleck's great are confusing me.

I find both a dull Batman Superman movie and Affleck not sucking equally unbelievable...
 
From what I've read so far, it's almost a consensus that Jesse Eisenberg's Lex Luthor sucks major ass.
 
Can I just say, having got back from the midnight screening here in New Zealand, that...
I've read some of those negative reviews and I really think that there's a whole lot of negative confirmation bias going on here because this is by no means a bad film.

It's perfectly fine if people don't like this film, there's no accounting for taste, however the things they are writing to support their view are absolute bullshit from a purely objective standpoint, so I'll just try to dispel a few most common complaints here.

SPOILER WARNING!
I'll avoid plot spoilers beyond what you've already seen in the trailers, but there will be a description of the plot and character arcs in general terms, so if you really want to go in fresh don't read beyond this point.

So...

"no character growth"


All three characters have arcs that they complete.
Batman starts form an angry, pessimistic, resigned individual and ends up as a hopeful, optimistic, newly determined guy.
Superman's arc in Man of Steel was him finding his place in the world, it continues here to him dealing with the world's reaction to him.
Wonder Woman starts withdrawn from the world and ends up rejoining it.

"incoherent plot"

The plot of the movie is fairly straightforward, Lex sees Superman as a threat to humanity and seeks to destroy him by manipulating events so that both the world and Batman develop a negative and doubting view of Superman.
This one I can somewhat understand because there is a lot of stuff to set up the Justice League movies going on on the side, and I can see how people who are unfamiliar with DC lore might see it as "tacked on", but I found it to be very organically integrated.

"lacks subtlety"

This is the one I have to most vehemently disagree with.
And this I think is where Marvel films are the most to blame because they have conditioned people to expect the superhero films to be entirely straightforward and literal. Even the really good Marvel films like Winter Soldier are completely on the nose about what they're doing. While there are some very unsubtle things that people have focused on, there is a whole lot of subtle stuff going on here that I see people overlook or not give enough credit to.

"depressing tone"

People seem to confuse serious with depressing.
I think Terrio's comparison to Empire Strikes Back was apt. Yes, bad stuff happens, but at the end characters are not "depressed" they're hopeful and determined.

"no fun"/"humorless"

The movie is serious, but it's not humorless.
There are no laugh out loud clown moments in this film, but there is humor. Alfred being snarky to Bruce all the time probably being the most obvious example, though others have humorous lines throughout the film which are subtle and don't jump out. The fact that people find it humorless if it doesn't have a giant "laugh now this is joke!" sign says more about them than the movie...

"CGI orgy"

What you see in the trailers is seriously pretty much it.
The Doomsday fight does not have that much destruction, the landscape you see in the trailers where they fight is a preexisting condition as it takes place in a condemned, abandoned section of the city, there's no new citywide destruction scenes.
That whole fight has less CGI and feels shorter than the Hulk v Iron Man fight in Age of Ultron and the fact that people have taken an exception to this one kinda speaks to the negative bias that greeted this film out of the gate.


Anyways, I'd urge people to go into it with an open mind.
The cinematography and music are worth it even if you end up disliking everything else...

... I'm in 100% agreement. Me and my partner were discussing almost all of these points on the way home. Especially agree on your point regarding the humor. The cornball marvel banter is something people have been acclimated to where the humor is spoon fed. This was a refreshing change. Plenty of people laughing in the theater, especially Alfred's cynical quips.

I'll tell ya, I loved Nolan's Batman trilogy. But damn it if I don't love this new incarnation of the Dark Knight.

Luthor's characterization and lines could have used some work. I'm not in a rush to see him again.

But, all in all, great movie. Wonder Woman stole the show, of course.
 
I've read some of those negative reviews and I really think that there's a whole lot of negative confirmation bias going on here because this is by no means a bad film.

It's perfectly fine if people don't like this film, there's no accounting for taste, however the things they are writing to support their view are absolute bullshit from a purely objective standpoint, so I'll just try to dispel a few most common complaints here.

SPOILER WARNING!
I'll avoid plot spoilers beyond what you've already seen in the trailers, but there will be a description of the plot and character arcs in general terms, so if you really want to go in fresh don't read beyond this point.

So...

"no character growth"


All three characters have arcs that they complete.
Batman starts form an angry, pessimistic, resigned individual and ends up as a hopeful, optimistic, newly determined guy.
Superman's arc in Man of Steel was him finding his place in the world, it continues here to him dealing with the world's reaction to him.
Wonder Woman starts withdrawn from the world and ends up rejoining it.

"incoherent plot"

The plot of the movie is fairly straightforward, Lex sees Superman as a threat to humanity and seeks to destroy him by manipulating events so that both the world and Batman develop a negative and doubting view of Superman.
This one I can somewhat understand because there is a lot of stuff to set up the Justice League movies going on on the side, and I can see how people who are unfamiliar with DC lore might see it as "tacked on", but I found it to be very organically integrated.

"lacks subtlety"

This is the one I have to most vehemently disagree with.
And this I think is where Marvel films are the most to blame because they have conditioned people to expect the superhero films to be entirely straightforward and literal. Even the really good Marvel films like Winter Soldier are completely on the nose about what they're doing. While there are some very unsubtle things that people have focused on, there is a whole lot of subtle stuff going on here that I see people overlook or not give enough credit to.

"depressing tone"

People seem to confuse serious with depressing.
I think Terrio's comparison to Empire Strikes Back was apt. Yes, bad stuff happens, but at the end characters are not "depressed" they're hopeful and determined.

"no fun"/"humorless"

The movie is serious, but it's not humorless.
There are no laugh out loud clown moments in this film, but there is humor. Alfred being snarky to Bruce all the time probably being the most obvious example, though others have humorous lines throughout the film which are subtle and don't jump out. The fact that people find it humorless if it doesn't have a giant "laugh now this is joke!" sign says more about them than the movie...

"CGI orgy"

What you see in the trailers is seriously pretty much it.
The Doomsday fight does not have that much destruction, the landscape you see in the trailers where they fight is a preexisting condition as it takes place in a condemned, abandoned section of the city, there's no new citywide destruction scenes.
That whole fight has less CGI and feels shorter than the Hulk v Iron Man fight in Age of Ultron and the fact that people have taken an exception to this one kinda speaks to the negative bias that greeted this film out of the gate.


Anyways, I'd urge people to go into it with an open mind.
The cinematography and music are worth it even if you end up disliking everything else...

That's reassuring to hear. The reviews make it sound like it's just another over the top and incoherent Sucker Punch, but I have a hard time believing it's really that bad.

And the "lack of fun" criticism in particular I find really baffling. I know not everyone here felt the same way, but for me the "fun" of MOS was just in how visually awe-inspiring and amazing Snyder made that movie look and feel, and in how thrilling much of the action was. And I suspect I'll get a similar charge out of BvS.

I don't need characters smiling and cracking jokes all the time to consider a movie fun.
 
Yeah I'm a huge Whedon fan, but by Age of Ultron his jokey style was really starting to feel tired and predictable, and made it hard to take anything in that movie all that seriously.
 
Couldn't care less about what others think. I'll form my own opinion and if I like it, I like it. If it hate it, I hate it. All this talk about what other people think about it and how people are actually discussing the opinion of others...... Sofar, it seems that most people involved in this topic haven't even seen the movie themselves....

Anyway, is there a mid or end credit scene??
 
And the "lack of fun" criticism in particular I find really baffling. I know not everyone here felt the same way, but for me the "fun" of MOS was just in how visually awe-inspiring and amazing Snyder made that movie look and feel, and in how thrilling much of the action was. And I suspect I'll get a similar charge out of BvS.

I don't need characters smiling and cracking jokes all the time to consider a movie fun.

That's not what the critics are saying at all, as far as I can discern. Yes, many are saying they find it dull, but not because it lacks humor -- rather, they're saying it's dull because it lacks weight, because its attempts to tackle serious philosophical questions are too superficial and ungrounded to be interesting. They're saying it's dull because the plot meanders and jumps incoherently from scene to scene without much narrative flow, and because the characters and their motivations are underdeveloped. They're saying it's dull because the action sequences not only take too long to arrive, but are clumsily choreographed and rely mainly on sensory overload to the point of numbing the viewer. And they're saying that the parts that do attempt to be funny -- mainly Eisenberg's Luthor -- are not successful. If the critics just favored lightness over dark, they'd be praising Luthor as one of the best things about the movie. Instead, there seems to be a broad (though not universal) consensus that he's one of the very worst things about it.

Of course, your mileage may vary, and you're free to decide for yourself. I just wanted to make it clear what the critics were actually saying. The negative reactions are not just about lack of humor.
 
Yes, it's a very ambitious and "adult" superhero film, and I suspect some people will not like it expecting an Avengers style romp, but I for one don't think that's a bad thing.

To me, the trailers for the film have made this look like a spiritual sequel to Watchmen more than anything. While I didn't like Snyder's execution of Watchmen, I admired his ambition. I'm seeing this tomorrow night, and I'm looking forward to it. :)
 
That's not what the critics are saying at all, as far as I can discern. Yes, many are saying they find it dull, but not because it lacks humor -- rather, they're saying it's dull because it lacks weight, because its attempts to tackle serious philosophical questions are too superficial and ungrounded to be interesting. They're saying it's dull because the plot meanders and jumps incoherently from scene to scene without much narrative flow, and because the characters and their motivations are underdeveloped. They're saying it's dull because the action sequences not only take too long to arrive, but are clumsily choreographed and rely mainly on sensory overload to the point of numbing the viewer. And they're saying that the parts that do attempt to be funny -- mainly Eisenberg's Luthor -- are not successful. If the critics just favored lightness over dark, they'd be praising Luthor as one of the best things about the movie. Instead, there seems to be a broad (though not universal) consensus that he's one of the very worst things about it.

Of course, your mileage may vary, and you're free to decide for yourself. I just wanted to make it clear what the critics were actually saying. The negative reactions are not just about lack of humor.

I never said it was. I was just singling that out that one complaint to say that it feels like the critics (much like with MOS) don't seem to find Snyder's dark and serious and showy style to be as inherently thrilling and fun to watch as I do.
 

I definitely agree with the article that argues against snyder's points, especially when it says this

"The idea that violence equals maturity is not a new concept, but it is a tired one."

Also, Snyder trying to compare Man of Steel's destruction to Star wars Episode VIII is really stupid, the situations couldn't have been more different.
 
I never said it was. I was just singling that out that one complaint to say that it feels like the critics (much like with MOS) don't seem to find Snyder's dark and serious and showy style to be as inherently thrilling and fun to watch as I do.

But as I've said, I haven't noticed many critics, if any, actually saying that at all. On the contrary, many of them are praising Snyder's cinematic style even as they criticize the story for being poorly assembled. It's simply false to say that they're criticizing the film for being too dark. That's not what it's about at all, at least not in the reviews I've been reading. On the contrary, many of them are criticizing the film for failing to commit to its dark premise. They're saying that, instead of really confronting the moral issues and loss of life in these massive, destructive battles, it's just paying lip service to them and then tossing in a casual reference to the areas being evacuated so that the heroes can wage mass destruction without it raising any moral problems.
 
^^
Man of Steel: "Why didn't Superman direct the fight away from the civilians? This is stupid!"
Batman v Superman: "Why did the heroes direct the fight away from the civilians? This is stupid!"

8UM7waS.jpg
 
Okay, well, maybe there are some reviews like that (though I don't recall reading any of them myself). But it wouldn't be a fair characterization of all of them.
 
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