Spoilers Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice - Grading & Discussion

[Chekov's Phaser]

As has been explained repeatedly to you in multiple threads, no one at all has a problem if you have misgivings about anything. It.is.your.prerogative. What people do have a problem is condemning something with little information with a refusal to have an open mind, and then getting defensive about it. Christopher at least is willing to watch the movie, despite not being sure of if he will like it.

I never seen Twilight, and I know I'd hate it. The difference is if you called me out on my pre-judgement of the series, I would have little to defend until I had at least seen it. So feel however you want, but don't be so thin-skinned when people call you out on it.

But go on, continue with the "elite club" nonsense while playing the victim.

 

[Christopher]

ComicsAlliance gives the movie a 4/10 rating, and the specifics it gives are very disheartening to me:

http://comicsalliance.com/batman-v-superman-review/

In Snyder’s formulation, protecting the world from evil isn’t a gift or a calling; it’s a burden. And that feeling is reflected in the movie itself, a burdensome 150-minute slog about two men fighting over who is in the right when both are very clearly in the wrong.
...
But this kind of investigation into the nature of heroism requires shades of gray, while Snyder only traffics in absolutes, with characters making ham-fisted speeches about ignorance and innocence and then showcasing their absolute awesomeness in big, showy, and sometimes shockingly brutal action sequences. (Although this film probably does fall within the textbook definition of a PG-13, it’s dark and disturbing in ways that should make parents with little kids think twice before buying tickets.) And even if Snyder believes Superman’s actions were justified in Man of Steel, when Batman v Superman ramps up to scenes of citywide destruction, he inserts lines of dialogue about how this island is “uninhabited” and how that part of Metropolis is “almost empty” because it’s after work. After two hours raising issues about responsibility and public safety, he finds a convenient excuse for facile smashy smashy.
...
Instead of playing up the differences between the Man of Steel and the Dark Knight, Batman v Superman flattens them. For all his high-horsing about Superman’s transgressions, Batman mows down loads of people in his Batmobile and Batwing (both equipped with enormous machine guns) and he beats up bad guys with alarming ferocity (he paralyzes at least one guy for life, if the poor dude survives at all). At times, Affleck’s Bruce Wayne seems less worried about Clark Kent’s powers than jealous of them. This Batman may be right about this Superman, but he’s also a hypocrite. If he’d stop trying to kill him for two minutes, he’d realize how much they have in common. Batman and Superman have no reason to fight.

So... not rubber bullets? Ugh.

And it sounds like Snyder took the wrong lessons from the critiques of MoS's climax. Instead of having heroes actually learn to care about protecting civilians, he still leaves civilians completely out of the equation and just throws in a bit more lip service to excuse it.

The one encouraging thing is that, while the general reviewers are lukewarm on Gal Gadot, the comics-oriented reviewers seem to be very positive about Wonder Woman in this film, and what it portends for her own solo film.

 

[Roshi]

I've just seen it and I can fairly say a lot of people are going to hate the ending...

 

[Commander Richard]

^^ There's something in that review that doesn't surprise me.

Spoiler: Batman

That Bruce seems jealous of Superman's powers. I kind of got that impression and besides, how could he not be?

 

[Skywalker]

Well, I really liked it. My one big complaint about the movie was the same complaint mentioned in that ComicsAlliance review. But they've never really gotten that part about Batman right in cinematic adaptations. I was hoping they would this time around but I wasn't surprised that they didn't. That one disappointment aside, though, I thought Ben Affleck was fantastic as both Bruce Wayne and Batman. Henry Cavill was excellent again; but I was also a big fan of his performance in Man of Steel. I feel like Gal Gadot is the real standout here, though. Wonder Woman was amazing, and I'm super jazzed for her solo movie next year.

 

[Christopher]

^^ There's something in that review that doesn't surprise me.

Spoiler: Batman

That Bruce seems jealous of Superman's powers. I kind of got that impression and besides, how could he not be?

He could not be by being a grownup, and by being a crimefighter focused above all else on the goal of saving lives.

Again referring to ComicsAlliance:

http://comicsalliance.com/ask-chris-66-superman-batman-and-the-worlds-finest-friendshi/

Stories where Batman rails against Superman for being able to fly above it all and have bullets bounce of his chest while sitting in his billion-dollar stealth jet, nestled snugly in his kevlar armor, both of which were prepared for the evening by his combat trained butler, are among the dumbest things that have ever seen print. Yes, Batman struggled and trained, and that’s a very important aspect of his character, but you know how he traveled around the world to become a ninja and stocked his utility belt with grappling hooks and pointy metal logos? He used the vast fortune he inherited from his parents through no effort of his own, and having that much money is the closest thing we have in the real world to super-powers. Ragging on Superman for “inheriting” powers — powers he uses exclusively to help other people — rather than being a self-made man isn’t just being a dick, it’s being a massively hypocritical dick.
...
It all goes back to Batman being a detective. He’s trained to observe people, to watch them, to know when they’re lying and what their true motivations are. Five minutes talking to Superman, and he’s going to understand that he’s not a guy who plans to gain the public’s trust and use that to declare himself King of the World.

Batman’s going to understand that this is a guy who simply cannot stand by and let people suffer while he can do something to stop it. That’s something he can respect, because he’s the exact same way.

So portraying Batman as someone who resents Superman for being powerful, rather than recognizing him as an invaluable ally in the endless war on crime, is totally misrepresenting who Batman is. It's reducing him to an egotistical child in order to manufacture a gratuitous conflict.

Then again, the latter part of Chris Sims's argument above is predicated on Superman being the character he usually is, the one who's undeniably good and that a trained observer like Batman could easily recognize as such. So maybe it doesn't quite apply to a Superman who made his debut as destructively as MoS's Kal-El did and who, judging from the reviews I've seen, is still getting people killed as collateral damage in his "heroic" acts. Although that just means it comes down to a choice between Batman being out of character and/or incompetent on the one hand, and Superman being out of character and/or incompetent on the other.

That one disappointment aside, though, I thought Ben Affleck was fantastic as both Bruce Wayne and Batman. Henry Cavill was excellent again; but I was also a big fan of his performance in Man of Steel.

I thought Cavill was great as Superman; I just regretted that he didn't get to play a script that served the Superman character well. I suppose that when/if I do see this movie, I'll have to try to focus on the performances and not dwell too much on the story.

I feel like Gal Gadot is the real standout here, though. Wonder Woman was amazing, and I'm super jazzed for her solo movie next year.

That's good to hear. That movie sounds a lot more promising.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

All this talk is killing my vibe (insert Cisco Ramon joke + roll on snare). I think I may have to avoid the internet till Thursday when I see the movie.

Although, I will laugh if MOS ends up with a higher rating on RT, than BvS. Since I am one for levity in any situation. Hehehe

 

[davejames]

For people who have read the negative reviews (I am avoiding them), what exactly are the gripes they have with the movie?

The common criticisms seems to be that it's too dark, serious and lacking in fun. And also that the story is too cluttered and the character motivations don't always make sense.

And some of those may even be true to some extent, but I still think they're reacting MUCH more harshly to those things simply because it's Snyder and they just don't like his style at all.

Usually I tend to agree with the general critical consensus on a movie and side more with the critics over the fans, but MOS was definitely an exception to that and I have a feeling this one will be as well.

 

[JD]

Hearing you summation of the complaints is kind of relief for me. I'm not bothered by dark and serious, and while I prefer fun movies, I can still like movies that aren't. Unclear character motivations don't bother me too much if the rest of the story is interesting.
EDIT: It's at 49 on Metacritic right now, with 3 positive reviews, 14 mixed reviews and no negative. My main concern is number of negative reviews, and the 0 makes me much more confident that I'll like the movie. Hell, I like the Star Wars prequels, and Matrix and Pirates of the Carribean sequels, and I don't know for sure, but I don't I doubt they got this good of reviews.

A few more quotes of Metacritics page:
Metacritic gives every review a score of 0-100, with each being categorized as mixed, negative, or good.

Rarting: 75 (Good)
Better than Man of Steel but below the high bar set by Nolan's Dark Knight, Dawn of Justice is still a colossus, the stuff that DC Comics dreams are made of for that kid in all of us who yearns to see Batman and Superman suit up and go in for the kill.

Rating: 60 (Mixed)
It’s tough to take all the hardcore emoting seriously, particularly as the emotional heavy lifting is designed to be done by the occasional maudlin line in brief pauses between the explosions. For a film so concerned with its characters’ inner lives, there’s a fundamental disconnect going on here – enough to make you yearn for the lighter touch of the Marvel films.

Rating: 50 (Mixed)
While “300" maestro Snyder puts together some very striking scenes — which may be enough for many fanboys — they never really cohere into a whole. He literally throws in the kitchen sink in a film that frantically introduces characters and concepts while never clearly establishing the rules of the DC Comics universe.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Did anyone see the review where the author complained that there were "too many Oscar winners" in the film?

Like seriously, that is something to castigate a movie for?
Personal snobberies and skewed expectations are one thing, but this just sounds ridiculous.

 

[JD]

How can that be a bad thing? Most movies are lucky to get one, but if you can multiple that's great. I don't respect the Oscars as much as I use to, but it's still a pretty prestigious thing in the industry.

 

[Aldo]

Was that the basis of his complaint? Not that I don't believe you guys, but I'd like to think there was a little context to that quote so it doesn't sounds dumb.

 

[Commander Richard]

About the Oscar thing, I found this. The review is a bit spoilery but the quote below is safe if you've already seen the trailers.

Constantly threatening to collapse from self-seriousness, this epic has way too much of everything, including CGI and Oscar winners up the wazoo (Jeremy Irons as Alfred, Holly Hunter as a senator investigating Superman...).

 

[Starbreaker]

Looks like this film is going to be "rotten" on the scale. I'm still going to go watch it, but apparently I shouldn't be expecting much at this point.

 

[Aldo]

Oh I'm definitely going to see this. This movie is a "event" no matter how you look at it. But yeah, based on the reviews and a few of my Facebook friends who have already seen it, I'll lower my expectations a tad.

I do lean more towards Marvel, but you know what? I want DC to get their extended universe off the ground, I think they'll have some interesting stories to tell too.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Spoiler in the Rolling Stone review as to how Batman can challenge Superman, reader beware.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Looks like this film is going to be "rotten" on the scale. I'm still going to go watch it, but apparently I shouldn't be expecting much at this point.

MOS and AoU had over 250 reviews each, I recall. While BvS has something like 57 atm. There is definitely room for it to climb, but I think this will be a film that the audience enjoys more than the critics.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Oh I'm definitely going to see this. This movie is a "event" no matter how you look at it. But yeah, based on the reviews and a few of my Facebook friends who have already seen it, I'll lower my expectations a tad.

I do lean more towards Marvel, but you know what? I want DC to get their extended universe off the ground, I think they'll have some interesting stories to tell too.

Agreed on all points. No matter what I'm still looking forward to Wonder Woman and Suicide Squad.

 

[Captain_Amasov]

Here's a couple of reviews from the same site that give somewhat differing opinions on the film:

http://www.geekireland.com/review-batman-superman-dawn-of-justice/

http://www.geekireland.com/review-batman-v-superman-bvs-second-opinion/

 

[dahj]

I've read some of those negative reviews and I really think that there's a whole lot of negative confirmation bias going on here because this is by no means a bad film.

It's perfectly fine if people don't like this film, there's no accounting for taste, however the things they are writing to support their view are absolute bullshit from a purely objective standpoint, so I'll just try to dispel a few most common complaints here.

SPOILER WARNING!
I'll avoid plot spoilers beyond what you've already seen in the trailers, but there will be a description of the plot and character arcs in general terms, so if you really want to go in fresh don't read beyond this point.

So...

"no character growth"

All three characters have arcs that they complete.
Batman starts form an angry, pessimistic, resigned individual and ends up as a hopeful, optimistic, newly determined guy.
Superman's arc in Man of Steel was him finding his place in the world, it continues here to him dealing with the world's reaction to him.
Wonder Woman starts withdrawn from the world and ends up rejoining it.

"incoherent plot"

The plot of the movie is fairly straightforward, Lex sees Superman as a threat to humanity and seeks to destroy him by manipulating events so that both the world and Batman develop a negative and doubting view of Superman.
This one I can somewhat understand because there is a lot of stuff to set up the Justice League movies going on on the side, and I can see how people who are unfamiliar with DC lore might see it as "tacked on", but I found it to be very organically integrated.

"lacks subtlety"

This is the one I have to most vehemently disagree with.
And this I think is where Marvel films are the most to blame because they have conditioned people to expect the superhero films to be entirely straightforward and literal. Even the really good Marvel films like Winter Soldier are completely on the nose about what they're doing. While there are some very unsubtle things that people have focused on, there is a whole lot of subtle stuff going on here that I see people overlook or not give enough credit to.

"depressing tone"

People seem to confuse serious with depressing.
I think Terrio's comparison to Empire Strikes Back was apt. Yes, bad stuff happens, but at the end characters are not "depressed" they're hopeful and determined.

"no fun"/"humorless"

The movie is serious, but it's not humorless.
There are no laugh out loud clown moments in this film, but there is humor. Alfred being snarky to Bruce all the time probably being the most obvious example, though others have humorous lines throughout the film which are subtle and don't jump out. The fact that people find it humorless if it doesn't have a giant "laugh now this is joke!" sign says more about them than the movie...

"CGI orgy"

What you see in the trailers is seriously pretty much it.
The Doomsday fight does not have that much destruction, the landscape you see in the trailers where they fight is a preexisting condition as it takes place in a condemned, abandoned section of the city, there's no new citywide destruction scenes.
That whole fight has less CGI and feels shorter than the Hulk v Iron Man fight in Age of Ultron and the fact that people have taken an exception to this one kinda speaks to the negative bias that greeted this film out of the gate.


Anyways, I'd urge people to go into it with an open mind.
The cinematography and music are worth it even if you end up disliking everything else...