Spoilers Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice - Grading & Discussion

[Demiurge]

I've seen it reported in several reviews that

Spoiler

he kills at least one person when rescuing Lois from hostage-takers.

I suppose it could be interpreted that way, but it is in no way explicit.

Spoiler

He takes down a guy holding her hostage by taking them both through a wall - but its so fast you don't see any damage to the bad guy, he just disappears. I assumed he knocked him out and left him somewhere.

There's considerable discussion on whether Superman killed people there, and the take away is no, he didn't. People did die, but that was done by Lex's henchmen who shoot them. Its part of Lex's deception campaign to turn the public against Superman.

I think you mean Nolan, not Abrams. As for Burton's Batman, he was absolutely a killer. And Nolan's was kind of hypocritical about it, doing things like refusing to execute a League of Assassins member and then punctuating his moral stand by blowing up the whole building and evidently causing dozens of deaths.

Yes, thank you. And the League of Assassin's was one of those darn 'unexpected consequences.' Bale's Batman was still trying to save people, and obviously was very raw. The entire rest of the plot of the movie rested on him saving Ra's when he could have let him die. These development movies are about them becoming the icons that save everyone. Most superhero origin stories have the protaganist make mistakes that motivate them for the rest of their lives, like Uncle Ben or Cap's scientist.

It's not about whether mass-destruction scenes in general are watchable. I like Godzilla movies. I just don't like the way Snyder handles it. The destruction in MoS went on far too long, it was soulless and impersonal and repetitive, it was gratuitously excessive and overdone, the music was obnoxiously blaring, and you could've removed virtually all of it from the film without affecting a single plot point or line of dialogue, since literally nobody in the film even verbally acknowledged that it had happened at all (though obviously that is not the case with the sequel). Another director could've handled the same material far more effectively, I think.

Possible. Again, I think they were already plotting the sequel with significant hooks, and this was the largest. Part of Earth One's story included learning to fight away from people IIRC. And I'm sure they took JMS' book as one the principle sources, as so much of MoS is derived from it.

Even so, it shows Batman fighting Superman in the only way that makes sense -- with his mind, with his gift for advance planning and strategy. And it shows both of them being smart enough to recognize pretty quickly that they're on the same side despite their differences. No, Magpie wasn't a great villain, but nobody picking up a Batman-meets-Superman story is there to see the villain.

Again, I disagree. It was a hand wave - Superman could see the invisible forcefield that would trigger the bomb around Batman, but not the bomb itself? Silly.

That's not what you said, though. You said "I think in a few movies we'll see him go from naive supermanchild to iconic character."

Yes, JL:Part One will be the third movie. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. That's the arc, MoS, BvS, JL:P1.

 

[Jax]

As I said originally: This movie is bad and it should feel bad. I really hope this marks the end of this particular take on the DC universe.

What no more just because you don't like it, how about you don't watch and the rest of us will carry on. Batman is clearly suffering from the years as Batman and what happened in MOS and Frank Millers Batman gets so much praise as does Keaton's who also KILL ALOT. I don't want to see the same old characters over n over again I like different takes on Batman & Superman and speaking of Superman he is still pretty new at this only 2 years. I don't want shiny John Cena movie characters, I want flawed beings who get better over time.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

As far as every aspect of a story have to be self-contained, that's a good way to write a story but hardly necessary these days. There's some expectation of a greater story outside the one told in the 2 hour window..

But there shouldn't be. There is no guarantee you will get the answers to your story if it was planned as a trilogy. Look at the world building of Amazing Spider-Man 2 and the last Fantastic 4 movie (if you saw them, I wouldn't recommend it). They thought there would be pay-off for the audience that may have enjoyed these movies. But there wasn't. Even TV shows don't always follow up on the cliffhanger. So now, for the people that actually enjoyed the movies, that's as self contained as they can ever have. For example.

Movies absolutely should stand on their own and not anticipate answering IMPORTANT plot points in a sequel.

 

[dahj]

From interviews it seems Synder's vision of Batman is very DKR-Batman.

He is.
But one of the best things about the film for me was how it actually subverts TDKR premise.

TDKR paints Batman's anger and cynicism as necessary for a real hero in the real world. Here those same traits are shown to be negative as they ultimately lead him to be Lex's pawn. Superman on the other hand is just a guy trying to do the right thing and help people. And when they clash here it's Batman who realizes the error of his ways after their conflict .

This is very much a reconstructionist take on Batman, it tears him down to build him back up into a "proper" hero. While Superman is pretty much a proper hero throughout, and I strongly disagree with those who try to paint his humanity and moments of doubt as "wrong".

Regarding the Batmobile chase scene, I think that's a perfect example on how people refuse to give this film a benefit of the doubt. Snyder is a visual and symbolic guy, so if you go in with a literal mindset that's just a scene with Batman shooting machine guns at some baddies.
But that scene to me encapsulates his relentlessness and sheer blind determination until he is stopped by Superman. It really is an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object, to borrow a phrase from another movie. And that scene kinda sums up the movie, Batman's single mindedness and anger that led him astray is broken by Superman trying to do the right thing.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

^^
"The right thing" by Superman stopping Batman and allowing the armed villains to escape and endanger innocents?

 

[Christopher]

Frank Millers Batman gets so much praise as does Keaton's who also KILL ALOT.

Well, Miller's Batman was not a killer (not in TDKR, anyway), no matter what Snyder claims. And Keaton's Batman... has been subject to reassessment. I think even most of the people who like the Burton movies would concede that it's a very unconventional take on Batman.

Besides, the fact that there are precedents is kind of the problem. Batman's refusal to kill has been such an important part of his character for 76 of his 77 years of existence that it's frustrating that so few screen adaptations of the character have bothered to acknowledge it.

 

[Commander Richard]

I'm looking at the cast list at the IMDb and I see that Michael Cassidy is credited as Jimmy Olsen and Emily Peterson as Lana. I didn't notice either of them in the movie.

I also found another bit of news. Maybe it's been discussed already but I've never seen it.

Whoa! Another Superhero Might Be Hidden In ‘Batman v Superman’

You’ll probably recognize Christina Wren reprising her “Man of Steel“ role as Major Carrie Farris in “Batman v Superman,” aka the major who thinks Superman is “kinda hot.”

What a lot of people don’t know is that her character was likely inspired by Carol Ferris from the DC Comics. In the comics, Ferris is the love interest of the Green Lantern, Hal Jordan. She eventually becomes the popular super villain/-hero Star Sapphire.

 

[JaseTheAce]

Hi all. First post on the board.

I went to see BvS last night and I just thought I'd give my .02. Overall, I'd rate it as a "B". Good but not great but certainly not as bad as what some of the critics have said. Personally I think DC films are held to a higher standard than Marvel maybe due to the iconic characters DC has or the fact that Nolan set such a high bar in his Batman films. Either way, this movie wasn't bad and for the life of me I thought many of the critics watched a different movie than I did.

First, the negatives:
The movie takes a while to get going and could honestly have been about 15-20 minutes shorter. There's some stuff in there that doesn't need to be but that's the case with a lot of other films. Once you get to the third act, the action picks up and it was great to see the Batman v Superman fight and the Trinity team up.

The other negative is Jessie Eisenberg. I don't know what he was going for with his version of Lex but he certainly went for it. My ideal Lex is a little more toned down and, while I understood what Lex was doing, the actor was just too over-the-top with it.

The Positives:
Ben Affleck is probably the most complete Bruce Wayne/Batman that we've seen. I really liked this version of Batman and I can't wait to see his solo movie, or at least see his cameo in Suicide Squad. Henry Cavill is a very good Superman and you really get a better sense of the character in this movie. Gal Gadot was good in her small role and I'm curious to see what they do with her in Wonder Woman.

The Nitpicks:
While I have seen a lot of complaints about the way they show the other Justice League members, I didn't have a problem with it. You could have done it as a post-credits scene but it didn't feel too tacked on. IMO if you're going to complain about that, then please complain about the Capt. America shield scene in Iron Man 2.

I think Snyder needs a strong producer to back him up. While I found the movie easy to follow, it does cut to different scenes rather jarringly and I can see why that bothers some people. A strong producer (George Miller) might be able to help Snyder make a very good Justice League part 1.

Overall..."B"

 

[Demiurge]

But there shouldn't be. There is no guarantee you will get the answers to your story if it was planned as a trilogy. Look at the world building of Amazing Spider-Man 2 and the last Fantastic 4 movie (if you saw them, I wouldn't recommend it). They thought there would be pay-off for the audience that may have enjoyed these movies. But there wasn't. Even TV shows don't always follow up on the cliffhanger. So now, for the people that actually enjoyed the movies, that's as self contained as they can ever have. For example.

Movies absolutely should stand on their own and not anticipate answering IMPORTANT plot points in a sequel.

When you highlight IMPORTANT I agree. The dream sequence/vision is not important to the plot of this movie. However, even then its not a hard and fast rule, if you are proceeding with a series. Back to the Future and LOTR are excellent examples. And certainly Snyder thought he was making a series, just like the other directors did of their respective franchises. Personally I like a bit to mull over when I leave, instead of having everything always tied up neatly in a bow. Not everything needs to be TNG. Some of us liked DS9.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

This is very much a reconstructionist take on Batman, it tears him down to build him back up into a "proper" hero.

Exactly. And the film's not subtle on that point at all.

Spoiler: Dialogue

Like, paraphrasing from memory, Bruce's on-the-nose line to Diana at Clark's funeral: "I failed him in life. I won't fail him in death."

 

[Demiurge]

@Jase - nice post, glad to see you join the discussion. I agree the pacing was off from a usual movie tone. I felt like I was seeing a series of vignettes, but honestly that reminded me more of the comics, not less. It was unusual for a feature length film, and I certainly can see why some would prefer a more traditional pacing.

 

[Demiurge]

The best scene for me:

Spoiler

Superman: Save Martha.
Batman: WHAT DID YOU SAY!

The fact that both of these characters had mothers with the same name was a little nugget I never put together. And I'm not a casual fan. The way they linked that together was powerful to me. Maybe that's been used in a comic some where before, but honestly that's the first time I've ever seen the coincidence. Movies like these usually don't surprise me.

The fight between the two was more DKR than I would have liked, more of a slug fest. I would have appreciated Batman using more stealth and agility - his suit nullifying Clark's super senses would have been neat and very fitting. But it still worked, and the way the character's came together over saving Martha Kent was very emotionally satisfying to me.

 

[Set Harth]

Spoiler

The fact that both of these characters had mothers with the same name was a little nugget I never put together.

Me neither.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

Spoiler

The fact that both of these characters had mothers with the same name was a little nugget I never put together.

Me neither.

Ditto.

I know it's not going to help anybody who already doesn't like this film, but I think the extended cut on home video is going to be even better. There are some pacing problems, particularly with cutting away from fight scenes to lay tracks for other movies or stick in emotional moments.

Spoiler

Superman and Lois having a moment with quiet music while you can see Doomsday raging about in the background is a little weird, not going to lie...

I also wasn't blown away by the soundtrack. I don't think Hans Zimmer nailed it in quite the way that he did with the Dark Knight trilogy...the music for Wonder Woman and for Lex are the best bits. No strong Batman theme I could spot and it was really making me crave some Danny Elfman...

I'm happy. I'd been waiting for more Batman since TDKR four years ago and I got it. Affleck is stellar as both a jaded Bruce Wayne and a cranky Bats; any problems should be with the depiction and characterization of Batman, not the actor!

Basically if you like movies where everything is explained and the moral code is clear, this one's not for you.

(@Christopher I will say the Doomsday fight is pretty intense but not nearly as mindless as the Zod fight. Waiting for home video is still probably an excellent idea.)

 

[davejames]

Wow, looks like the grades are all over the place at the moment.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Well, having been excited about this film for 2 & 1/2 years, my anticipation started to wane when I saw a trickle of negative reviews come in a few nights ago. 'F*ck you, Snyder!' I thought. But, I was still determined to see it and so I went this afternoon, albeit with low expectations.

And I'm pleased to say I enjoyed it.

I think a lot of the criticism is valid. Batman is too violent and thuggish. Superman is too dour. In his first scene with Lois, I longed for a Reeve-style smile, nod or 'Miss Lane.' There is too little distinction between Superman and Batman at times.

In an overlong film, we arguably don't need yet another retelling of Batman's origins but to be fair, it does prove a fairly important plot point later.

Snyder, as has been noted already, clearly feels the need to cram everything in, with 2 or 3 of the most famous comic storylines of the last 30 years being forced in. And I'd agree with the take that THAT twist at the end is too much too soon. I still don't know what to make of Eisenberg's Luthor.

But...

It entertained me no end. Irons and Affleck made me miss Caine and Bale not one iota, much as I loved their banter. We got Batman/Bruce playing detective more than any film since Begins. The scene where Batman enters the warehouse and takes out the goons was even better than the version released online. And the fight between the titular two was all I'd hoped for and more. Seeing the trio in action was the best comic movie moment since the first Avengers. And for all the darkness, it looked wonderful. Even in 3D (we went by mistake, having misread the timetable).

I went with 2 friends, we all expected it to be a big pile of pants (worn over trousers, obviously) but all really enjoyed it. While it was, on the one hand, too long, on the other hand, I'm definitely buying the extended Blu-Ray. Make of that what you will.

 

[Christopher]

I also wasn't blown away by the soundtrack. I don't think Hans Zimmer nailed it in quite the way that he did with the Dark Knight trilogy...the music for Wonder Woman and for Lex are the best bits. No strong Batman theme I could spot and it was really making me crave some Danny Elfman...

I find Zimmer a frustratingly inconsistent composer. He's good at adapting himself to his directors' stylistic preferences, but some of the directors he works for have tastes totally unlike mine. I've found some of his scores extremely rich and intriguing (e.g. Sherlock Holmes and Amazing Spider-Man 2) but his DC superhero scores tend to be quite blaring, repetitive, and unpleasant. The relentless, one-note music in the MoS climax was itself a major part of what I found so unpleasant about having to sit through it.

(@Christopher I will say the Doomsday fight is pretty intense but not nearly as mindless as the Zod fight. Waiting for home video is still probably an excellent idea.)

Andy Mangels's review says the film "is disconcertingly loud, absurdly turned up to a Spinal Tap-worthy 11 to begin with, and knocking the dial up to double that for many scenes (for an anticipated second viewing, I might actually wear earplugs)." That clinches it -- no way am I seeing this in a theater.

 

[Caretaker]

I saw it at a 9 am showing this morning (3D pseudo IMAX). Some of my thoughts (in no particular order):

Loved the first half to 3/4 of the film. It's the final showdown (with Doomsday) that went effects-heavy and had me rolling my eyes. I kept thinking it was Michael Bay-esque. "Bigger! Bigger!" Also, I didn't really feel the need to see Thomas and Martha Wayne gunned down yet again.

The film slowed down when we get Diana checking out the video files of the other super power beings. I understand why they wanted that, but it cut into the race against time.

Overall, this felt a lot like a mix of Iron Man 2 and The Amazing Spider-Man 2 - the former due to being pure setup for the team-up film, the latter due to the throwing together as many classic stories into one film as possible. Did we really need The Death of Superman added to the mix? I don't mind them using that story eventually, but as with TASM2, it felt too soon to use the death of the character in question. It felt like the filmmakers were too impatient to develop the story slowly over a couple of films.

The IMAX really worked in the Superman/Batman fight and the rain. A little lightning heavy, though.

I would have preferred this film divided into two - the first part ending with the appearance of Doomsday. The second could have been the whole Death of Superman story on its own. Many interesting parts and elements to this film.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Incidentally, did anyone else notice that during the titular fight scene, they literally threw in the kitchen sink?! Well, a bathroom sink anyway...

 

[Skywalker]

I would have preferred this film divided into two - the first part ending with the appearance of Doomsday. The second could have been the whole Death of Superman story on its own. Many interesting parts and elements to this film.

That reminds me of the rumor that was going around last year about BvS possibly getting split into two movies, one to release last fall and one to release on its original date this spring. At the time I thought that would have been ridiculous, but honestly, after seeing the movie I think I would have been okay with it. The movie felt both like it could have been shorter but also could have been longer, if that makes any sense.