Bashir's genetic modification: yes or no?

[Myasishchev]

Maybe.

But then again, no Julian Bashir's genius, no end to the Dominion War without genocide. They should let his dad mow any lawn he wants when he gets out of prison.

 

[Kai Winn]

I agree, the TOS and ENT episodes were far too one-dimensional in their portrayal of the Augments.

i want to see a good reason why genetic engineering is outlawed, but the annoying weirdos of ds9 don't deliver it.

You thought that the show was trying to justify why the genetic engineering is outlawed? Is that something like the reasoning of a poster from the VOY board "If the Doctor is the property of Starfleet, he can't be sentient"? Or, in this case, every law in the Federation is necessarily 100% right, and the show's task is to provide examples why it's right? So if genetic engineering is outlawed, that means that the show has to feature only incredibly bad and dangerous Augments that should not exist?

I think you got it backwards.

But then you call them "annoying weirdos" and blame them for not providing a good proof why genetic engineering is outlawed... eh, sorry, you've completely lost me here. What would you have liked them to be? Normal, sweet and perfectly adjusted? Well, then they certainly wouldn't prove that genetic engineering should be outlawed, would they.

they were not far out of the ordinary, and they were no particular danger to fellow humans. there was no reason to contain them in a mental facility.
even the best of the ds9 engineered-humans episodes, 'statistical probabilities' has a lot of issues. we are in the age of supercomputers, which exceed the abilities of the human brain indefinitely. no matter if the iq of a modified brain is lifted to 200, 500 or whatever, it wouldn't be able to run a starship, or the simplest of holodeck programs. it is therefore more likely the war council of the federation questions its computers about the prospects of the war, or maybe commander data, but not the four inmates of a mental facility amongst the ten or so trillion people of the federation.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Maybe.

But then again, no Julian Bashir's genius, no end to the Dominion War without genocide. They should let his dad mow any lawn he wants when he gets out of prison.

That's possible. Of course, we don't know how another doctor truly would've handled Bashir's role, so we can't say one way or another.

 

[Grant]

I haven't read every post in here so i don't know if anybody made this point...........

They took the only ' middle-eastern' character of any consequence in the 40+ year history of Trek and retroactively made him a retard that needed genetic engineering to be fit for Starfleet. I find that insulting.

I don't think that was lost on Siddig.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Well, that's going a bit too far since I didn't see that in his remarks. And having AVERY BROOKS on that show? I think HE would have seen it and said something about it for sure. So, no. Since I have never heard that ever accused I will leave that on the "Bigfoot" lives side of the universe.

Rob

 

[Grant]

Bashir started out as a generally unliked character. He slowly became more likable and then in season 5 they say, whoops, he really was a defective mentally and needed to be enhanced to cut the mustard in starfleet (of in life in general)

And he was the only 'muslim/arab' (even though it was left vague) character ever to be of any significance in Trek history.

If a kid of arab/muslim heritage had been watching the show and was proud/identified with the character for 5 years and then learned he was 'slow' and needed futuristic genetic engineering to fit into the Starfleet family----I think that would hurt.

Heck, I even recall Levar Burton having mixed feelings about having the only black regular on TNG being born defective.

 

[RobertScorpio]

And what about Uhura..what about Terrell? What about Sisko..Jake..Jennifer..Kassidy...Joseph and Malcom?? And what about Geordi's mom? What about Admiral Cartright? What about Cal Hudson? What about....baseless accusations from two actors going through midlife crisis.

Rob

 

[Myasishchev]

^Just to play devil's advocate, three of those listed (Yates, Cartwright, Hudson) were voluntary traitors to the Federation and one (Terrell) was an involuntary traitor.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Or, in the case of the Maqis, they were fed up with the Federation for not protecting the rights of those who lived in the DMZ. You can cut it either way.

Now..as for Richard Daystrom? You may have something there!! LOL

Rob

 

[Praxius]

I haven't read every post in here so i don't know if anybody made this point...........

They took the only ' middle-eastern' character of any consequence in the 40+ year history of Trek and retroactively made him a retard that needed genetic engineering to be fit for Starfleet. I find that insulting.

I don't think that was lost on Siddig.

So what are you saying? That any character that has some sort of problem or complication like a mental disorder should be a white male or else it's discrimination?

Sheish, and people say us Canadians are too Politically Correct.

Bashir started out as a generally unliked character. He slowly became more likable and then in season 5 they say, whoops, he really was a defective mentally and needed to be enhanced to cut the mustard in starfleet (of in life in general)

And he was the only 'muslim/arab' (even though it was left vague) character ever to be of any significance in Trek history.

If a kid of arab/muslim heritage had been watching the show and was proud/identified with the character for 5 years and then learned he was 'slow' and needed futuristic genetic engineering to fit into the Starfleet family----I think that would hurt.

Heck, I even recall Levar Burton having mixed feelings about having the only black regular on TNG being born defective.

And Picard had an artificial heart, Rom was an idiot most of the time, Nog ended up having an artificial leg, Troi had a mother who couldn't hold a stable relationship (broken family), Riker also had a broken family and didn't get along with his father most of his life, O'Brien was prejudice against Cardassians most of the time, Quark was a sexist pig and selfish, Dukat was a genocidal insane maniac.....

.... the list goes on, the point being, every star trek character, including the white/human characters or played by white actors played a character that wasn't perfect.

In fact, one of the points of Star Trek was that nobody was perfect, everybody had their problems and they all over came their problems..... including Geordi and Bashir.

Never once in my life did I ever get a hint that Star Trek and its creators were trying to portray a particular race as all being disabled or handicap in some way.... those were their individual problems each character dealt with and the creators shouldn't have to worry about offending some group over their own subjective hangups by giving a character a disability or problem they need to deal with.

Someone please explain to me what Uhura's problem was?

IMO, there was nothing wrong with Uhura, and I thought she was kinda hot to boot.

Nobody as far as I know, hated Bashir because of his race or skin color.... he was just annoying at the start until he grew up a bit. I like his character and appreciate what he brought to the show.... he didn't exactly need to be genetically modified for me to like him, what made me like him was how his personality changed over time and he matured beyond his lame attempts at picking up women with clichés.

^Just to play devil's advocate, three of those listed (Yates, Cartwright, Hudson) were voluntary traitors to the Federation and one (Terrell) was an involuntary traitor.

Countered with Michael Eddington, Tom Paris, Genetic-Jack, etc.

 

[Grant]

^That's a pretty stupid conclusion.


I'm saying that when you have a single major character in the history of trek that comes from a certain ethnic group and then after showing that character for 4+ years as clever and intelligent----having it revealed that he was basically retarded and his only hope of doing anything beyond---what--being a janitor---requires futuristic tinkering, is insensitive and crude.


There have been many clever, brave asian characters, blacks, whites, native americans, europeans, etc.---------so if you use one of those groups as having a character that basically is sub-par it will balence out.

But Bashir is the only middle-eastern character to ever have a major role and they pulled the rug out from under him.

I am not saying they had a racist motive or they are bigots or wanted to do anything other than give the character some interesting backstory, BUT they should have at least considered the situation.

And Siddig very clearly states it was a total surprise to him.
Shouldn't being on a show for 4 years give him a little say into that major a change to his character?

 

[Grant]

And let me add this..............

Let's say in late season 3 of TOS it was revealed that Uhura--the only black regular character---had been born defective mentally and had required outlawed genetic engineering to be fit for Starfleet service. (Oh yeah and her dad was a loser con-man)

Do you honestly think that wouldn't have both pulled the rug out from under her character and insulted/hurt the black youngsters who looked up to her?

If you say, "no, it wouldn't have done that."----
you are a liar or stupid----in my humble opinion.

Now if they were to show a black character that way now----after Sisko & LaForge & Uhura & Jake & Cassidy & Daystrom & various Admirals and Captains that have achieved great things---it would be different.

 

[Myasishchev]

^Just to play devil's advocate, three of those listed (Yates, Cartwright, Hudson) were voluntary traitors to the Federation and one (Terrell) was an involuntary traitor.

Countered with Michael Eddington, Tom Paris, Genetic-Jack, etc.

Actually, I bet over a long enough timeframe the likelihood of any Trek character betraying the Federation, by choice or by force, approaches 100%.

I mean, Picard has, like, twice. Geordi too. Data more times than I can count, but at least three.

 

[Praxius]

^That's a pretty stupid conclusion.

I'm saying that when you have a single major character in the history of trek that comes from a certain ethnic group and then after showing that character for 4+ years as clever and intelligent----having it revealed that he was basically retarded and his only hope of doing anything beyond---what--being a janitor---requires futuristic tinkering, is insensitive and crude.

There have been many clever, brave asian characters, blacks, whites, native americans, europeans, etc.---------so if you use one of those groups as having a character that basically is sub-par it will balence out.

But Bashir is the only middle-eastern character to ever have a major role and they pulled the rug out from under him.

I am not saying they had a racist motive or they are bigots or wanted to do anything other than give the character some interesting backstory, BUT they should have at least considered the situation.

And Siddig very clearly states it was a total surprise to him.
Shouldn't being on a show for 4 years give him a little say into that major a change to his character?

And you talk to me about "Stupid Conclusions?"

You sure are pulling a hell of a lot out of this that clearly doesn't exist.

If there was a second character like Bashir (or with Bashir's similar heritage) made in the future who was given similar problems as Bashir (being mentally challenged or having some other disability) .... then I might agree with your viewpoint.... but one character isn't much to base all this on. Sure you only have one character to go by at this time, but that's it in reality.... you're making a load of assumptions based on one character, and just because they didn't hold off this background on Bashir for a future character of similar heritage or some other character altogether, doesn't mean they purposely went out to make him inferior to offend a race/culture..... nor does any of this suggest they didn't consider the possibility.

You're basically accusing Ronald D. Moore and Jimmy Diggs (The writers of that episode) as some sort of racists, based on your own unfounded assumptions and subjective racial casting rules.

You say you're not, but you sure are implying very closely that they had some sort of racial agenda to take the Bashir character down a notch or two..... which in my opinion, they didn't.

And because Siddig was surprised at the character twist (I think nobody was expecting it) doesn't somehow mean he was offended in a racist manner.

Stupid conclusions indeed.... I'm not the one trying to dig for various conspiracies related to racism where there's no evidence for such.

Besides, in the episode where he was found out, they never once actually said he was seriously brain damaged or retarded, just that he was falling behind the other students when he started school..... hell, I did that... it wasn't because I was stupid or retarded, I wasn't interested in what they were teaching, so I didn't pay attention and then when tested, while I did try my hardest, I failed miserably and ended up having to take extra classes to catch up.

Sure his parents suggested he might have had some mental disorder, but that was their non-expert opinion and they never did get an official test done to find out exactly what was wrong did they?

Even Bashir argued that they didn't even give him a chance to prove himself, and rather then modifying him to "Normal" like everyone else, they made him super intelligent, have better vision, reflexes, mobility, etc.... which none of that was needed in the first place.... as I see it, his father saw an opportunity/excuse to screw around with his genetics because he didn't measure up to his expectations quick enough and is a bit of an extreme example of parents always expecting great things from their children and the lengths they'll go to to avoid their own self-created embarrassment of their child, rather then accept them as who they are and letting them develop at their own pace.

They said they noticed something was wrong when he went to school... yet they didn't notice something before that?

If there was something really wrong with him... I mean really wrong with him, the doctors during delivery or pregnancy would have noticed something.... his parents would have noticed something by the age of 2, etc.

So if there was something indeed wrong with Bashir, it was extremely marginal, because it would have been detected a lot sooner.... and in my humble opinion, his father let his competitive spirit and superficial pride towards what others thought of him affect his judgement and now none of us will ever know what that original Bashir would have turned out as.

 

[DevilEyes]

Bashir started out as a generally unliked character. He slowly became more likable and then in season 5 they say, whoops, he really was a defective mentally and needed to be enhanced to cut the mustard in starfleet (of in life in general)

And he was the only 'muslim/arab' (even though it was left vague) character ever to be of any significance in Trek history.

If a kid of arab/muslim heritage had been watching the show and was proud/identified with the character for 5 years and then learned he was 'slow' and needed futuristic genetic engineering to fit into the Starfleet family----I think that would hurt.

Heck, I even recall Levar Burton having mixed feelings about having the only black regular on TNG being born defective.

Now excuse me, but that's just silly. Political correctness at its worst. By that logic, you shouldn't have a "minority" character who is not 100% perfect and wonderful - he or she can't have any flaws, any issues - any of the things that make a character interesting... and if you take that to its conclusion, dull and boring Mary Sue-like token characters would be all you get.

Heck, I even recall Levar Burton having mixed feelings about having the only black regular on TNG being born defective.

I'm trying to imagine TV executives going: "Oh no, we can't have a black man who's blind! Our audience is going to think that all black men are born blind!"

 

[RobertScorpio]

Exactly. I remember getting into a heated debate as to why they always cast African-Americans in the roles of Klingons....dude actually thought the guys playing MARTOK and GOWRON were black. All he had to go on was Michael Dorn and Tony Todd. When I corrected his assumption he said he was sorry.

What I want to know is why are all Romulan women so fricking hot and and sexy?

Rob

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I haven't read every post in here so i don't know if anybody made this point...........

They took the only ' middle-eastern' character of any consequence in the 40+ year history of Trek and retroactively made him a retard that needed genetic engineering to be fit for Starfleet. I find that insulting.

I don't think that was lost on Siddig.

What, so only a white male would be eligible for this plot?

Anyway, I think what's ACTUALLY insulting that Bashir's parents were incapable of loving and appreciating their son, that they were USING him for some vicarious sense of accomplishment. Put bluntly, Bashir's dad did it because HE was a loser and insecure about himself, and felt like he would be judged on the basis of his son.

 

[RobertScorpio]

That is not exactly the entire story, Nerys. His mother felt the same way, and defended the father's decision in the matter. Was she not telling the truth? Of course she was. She wanted for Bashir too.

And if anyone thinks that in the future, when the technology is here to do what they did, parents wouldn't take that chance really has no idea what they're talking about. If a parent could save their kid from defects at birth, mentally and physically, they would do it; STAR TREK ethics or not.

Rob

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

The question, though, is where we cross the line from "difference" into "defect." And I think that would actually become MORE, not LESS questionable in a society where technology also offers greater support and where IF we buy the utopian vision of Earth, financial concerns or other resource concerns aren't an issue either. Our society is harsher than the one in the 24th century--survival itself would be a concern without the right support, and said support is no guarantee in our world, nor tolerance and understanding from those around a person. But if the 24th century DOES provide a better environment and someone with mental challenges is in a situation where he or she can thrive according to the best of their capabilities (and actually have support to TRULY discover what that very best is, which I think is sorely lacking in our time)...then I have serious questions about altering that person for our own vanity or sense of perfection.

I think that is also a very serious question we have to address, and one that seriously calls into question the idea that he had to be genetically altered or else. Again, didn't Jules Bashir have a right to live and to be valued? His parents (and if his mother was supporting the dad's decision I do include her) apparently did not think their son was good enough for them. And that's troubling.

 

[Praxius]

Exactly. I remember getting into a heated debate as to why they always cast African-Americans in the roles of Klingons....dude actually thought the guys playing MARTOK and GOWRON were black. All he had to go on was Michael Dorn and Tony Todd. When I corrected his assumption he said he was sorry.

What I want to know is why are all Romulan women so fricking hot and and sexy?

Rob

Don't forget:

GREAT SCOTT!!! Marty, we gotta go back to Star Date 265481.25 and 1/3 to stop Kirk from marrying your mother or else you'll never be born!!!