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Bar and Grill 4: The Conversation Pit

Okay - I'll post my thoughts once I get rolling. I like to discuss stuff like this! :)

And glad to see Jericho is coming back.

Wow! You talk about 'gritty'. That show is WAY gritty.

Yeah...nothing like nuclear war with all major U.S. cities destroyed and the government and infrastructure in disarray to insert a little 'grit' into a show. :lol:
 
Okay.

I promised I'd post about some of these shows once I got into them, and so here I am.

I've not started watching any Dead Like Me yet, so I can't report on that...but I have finished one season (plus a couple of episodes of season 2) of Veronica Mars, and I've finished the first 17 episodes of Roswell.

Veronica Mars - I really liked season one. The 'arc' story about Lili's murder was great...and most of the other stories were great as well. The writing on this show, at least during season one, was very tight - some good quippy dialog sorta reminiscent of the days of Buffy, and I like most of the characters. I like Veronica's 'outcast' status during season one - I think it serves the story well.

The first couple of episodes of season two are not as good, however. I need to get back to it as I've not watched this show in a couple of weeks...but I'm not so sure I'm gonna like the bus story as much as the story about Lili...and I really didn't like the way Veronica dealt with the 'men in her life' in the first couple of episodes - that whole back and forth crap in 2x1 was pretty bogus and I didn't like the way she dumped Logan because she 'thought he'd be over this by now'. :rolleyes: Very nice that she gives the guy only a couple of months to get over the suicide of his mother and the arrest of his father for the murder of his own girlfriend...who BOTH of them had been sleeping with. :rolleyes:

Granted, I'm not the biggest fan of Logan...but dumping him at that point and in that way was pretty low, Veronica! :p

Anyhoo....

Roswell - hummm.....

Well, for starters, if you don't like 'shippy scifi shows, than this show is definitely NOT for you. :lol: Because this show makes Buffy look non-shippy by comparison.

I like the story of Max, Isabel, and Michael and their quest to find out who they are and where they come from. I think there is a good dynamic between these three characters - Max and Isabel being more circumspect, having been raised in a stable environment...and Michael being more volatile as a result of his disastrous 'upbringing' (if you could call it that).

I also like the three main human characters - Liz, Maria and Alex. They also sort of balance each other out, Liz being more circumspect and studious, Maria being more impulsive and spunky, and Alex being the obligatory scifi show nerd. :p

It is weird seeing William Sadler on this show. To me, he will always be Sloan. :lol: I simply can't help it.

I also like the Indian tie-in. Sort of X-Files-ish. :p

So far in season one, the pacing is good - both of the main story...the puzzle of the alien's background being drawn together, piece by piece...and the shipper stuff.

I also like the way the shipper stuff is so varied...and consistent with the personalities of the characters involved. I thought they did that very well. And as a girl, I do get a kick out of the differences between Max and Michael in this regard. Max is this guy-who-every-girl-dreams of in terms of 'getting' women...and Michael being so utterly hopeless that you wanna help the guy out, just cus you know he'll never get it on his own. :lol:

I don't often cry during scifi shows. I think the only scifi shows I've cried during since the end of DS9 have been Angel and Doctor Who. But I did cry during this show once so far - in the episode where Max and Isabel's mom gets suspicious. I felt really terrible that Isabel wanted to tell their mother so badly, but they couldn't. For whatever reason, that really struck me hard and I did tear up a bit.

Anyway, so far so good with this show. I hope to finish season one this weekend...but we'll see. :p
 
^ Thanks for the update. ;) I don't have a lot of time to post so I'll be brief.

I know a lot of fans of Veronica Mars S1 didn't care much for S2 and S3. Personally, while I do agree that S1 was the strongest, I still really enjoyed S2 and S3. While the overall stories in S2 and S3 aren't as interesting, I still really enjoyed almost all the characters. Kristen Bell, Enrico Colantoni and Jason Dohring are especially a pleasure to watch. ;)



As for Roswell... I'll be honest with you. You know that I really enjoy quite a few TV (mostly SF&F) shows like DS9, Farscape, Buffy, Angel, B5. But I gotta admit, the way I got emotionally attached to the lives of Max, Liz and the gang, well that's never happened to me before. I can't quite explain it. But despite some of the flaws of the show, I still absolutely loved it. Anyway, the final episodes of S1 are really awesome, so watch 'em soon and lemme know what you think. :)
 
^ Well, I can understand that, I think. Obviously, I can't speak to seasons 2 and 3 of Roswell...but I do think they did a really good job in season 1 of getting you attached to those characters.

The way they presented it - these likable kids who had no idea where they came from or why they were even here...and who were absolutely terrified of being discovered - was really great. You really felt for them - I think that the show did a great job of portraying how that would really feel, to be that alone.

I mean, it doesn't get any scarier or more isolated than that - wondering if you would be caught, turned in, and dissected in some sort of twisted science experiment. And the fact that they found people they grew to trust so well is very heart-warming to watch.

I think you get really attached to these characters in season 1 because they are so very vulnerable...and you really get scared for them on several occasions. You see their fears from THEIR side...and I think any reasonably sensitive viewer would spend time thinking about what it would really be like to be them.

I also think they did a good job with the human characters - portraying some of the sacrifices that they had to make out of love for their alien friends. You watch this trust forming between all of them, and you like to think that YOU would be like Liz, Maria and Alex...with that level of caring and commitment toward those they grew to love.

And they contrast all of that against a backdrop of guys like Agent Pierce (yeah...I finished season 1 last night! :p )...who have no compunction whatever about ripping any of them apart like pulling wings off an insect or something. I think that especially in the post 9/11 world (even though this season was made before that), that whole bit about protecting his planet from this alien threat really rang out as exactly what it was: closed-minded paranoia. Only now it is especially timely, I think.

As for the last few episodes of season 1...well, WOW, is all I have to say about that! Those last 3 episodes in particular were quite the wild ride! :lol:

And I did very much love the irony of it being Michael who is finally forced to let Vallenti in on their secret, when he is forced to stop that jeep chasing Max and Liz. That was a great scene. And Vallenti's shock was just great! Total WTF moment! :lol:

And speaking of Vallenti, I really love the way this season came full circle and had Max saving Kyle in the same way as he saved Liz. I think that really cemented the relationship betwen Vallenti and the kids...and that was a great way of doing it.

And of course the season ends with them finding out where they came from, more or less. Still alot of mystery...but they gave us just enough to keep us interested. That whole "it has begun" line sorta reminded me of The Adversary. :lol:

Anyway, I think this show is really good.

Although PLEASE tell me that at the end of season 3 the thing doesn't end on a cliffhanger! Please! :p
 
^ I'm glad you enjoyed the rest of the season. ;)

And yeah, the creators of the show portrayed both the fear of the group and their love (platonic and romantic) for each other really well. I think the viewer sometimes feels like he/she is actually a part of the group.

I was really pleased with the way S1 ended when it comes to Valenti. Bill Sadler is just so damn great and getting him more involved in the lives of the group was a good move on the writers' part.

As for the end of S3, I will just say that you will be happy with the way things work out. I wanna say more, but I won't 'cause I don't wanna spoil it for you. We'll just have to talk about it after you've watched it.
 
^ Well, now I'm 5 episodes into season 2. Last night I watched the one where Future Max comes back and gets Liz to pretend to sleep with Kyle...and the one where they mess up the Skins' harvest.

Getting into some very weird stuff here, but it's still fun. The 'shipper stuff is kinda at a depressing point at the moment, but the scifi aspects are definitely picking up.

I kinda don't really like Tess or the actress who plays her. I guess we are not really supposed to 'love' Tess anyway...but the actress is, for whatever reason, kind of annoying to me. I might change my mind though - during season one I didn't really like Kyle, but he has gotten alot better this season.

I'll try and watch another episode tonight.

Very addictive show.

By the way, what made you decide to watch this? Did it get recommended to you or something?

I didn't really know anything about it...but it was one of the few scifi shows I've not yet seen, and it's sorta been on my list of things to get around to one day for a long time. Glad I did, now. It's a great show.
 
Yeah "The End of th World" (the Future Max episode) is definitely depressing. Heart-breaking even. I also think it's one of the best episodes the show has ever done. And the stuff with the Skins was definitely... interesting. Personally I didn't love it, but it was still entertaining.

And yeah, I never really liked Tess either. But then I honestly think we (the viewers) weren't supposed to. But then again, for me (a Max/Liz shipper), it makes sense that I wouldn't like her. ;)

It is a very addictive show isn't it. :D Despite going to work, I watched all three seasons in about 10 days or so, hehe.

As for what made me decide to watch it. Well, I watched most of S1 when I was younger and it was airing on TV. So I've always wanted to watch the rest of it. And then with the WGA strike and the lack of new TV airing, it was a perfect opportunity for me to do so.


Oh, one more thing. A while ago you and I were discussing Blu-ray, HD DVD and the war between the two formats. Well, in case you haven't heard, HD DVD is now officially dead (as I predicted back then). ;) So yay!
 
Hey all,

Long time no post in this thread, at least for me. I hope this thread gets moved over to the other board, but if not, than I guess we'll have to get a new one going. Not a bad thing. Since we're talking about TV shows, I just started Farscape again. Downloaded Season 1 on Itunes and watched the first two episodes last night. Can't wait till the other seasons are available.
 
BigFoot said:
Yeah "The End of th World" (the Future Max episode) is definitely depressing. Heart-breaking even. I also think it's one of the best episodes the show has ever done. And the stuff with the Skins was definitely... interesting. Personally I didn't love it, but it was still entertaining.

And yeah, I never really liked Tess either. But then I honestly think we (the viewers) weren't supposed to. But then again, for me (a Max/Liz shipper), it makes sense that I wouldn't like her. ;)

It is a very addictive show isn't it. :D Despite going to work, I watched all three seasons in about 10 days or so, hehe.

As for what made me decide to watch it. Well, I watched most of S1 when I was younger and it was airing on TV. So I've always wanted to watch the rest of it. And then with the WGA strike and the lack of new TV airing, it was a perfect opportunity for me to do so.
Click to expand...

Well, watched a couple more episodes last night - the wrap-up of the thing with the Skins, and part one of the one with the duplicates from New York.

The first one was pretty good - I liked how the Skins thing ended. But the New York gang was kinda a bit cheesy for my taste. The Roswell actors are much better at playing the characters they play than playing these punker versions of themselves. :lol: I didn't mind them playing completely different characters in that one episode about 1947...but this one about New York was a wee bit ridiculous in the costuming and make-up departments. :lol:

As for Tess, well, I'm glad I'm not alone is sorta disliking her. Although she did give a good ending to the Skins, so gotta give her props for that. :D

As you know, I'm not a big fan of shipper stuff on Star Trek...but I think certain shows really lend themselves to that sort of thing (Babylon 5, Buffy, and of course, Farscape being the main ones I can think of), and this show is certainly one of them. I actually like both of the two main 'ships - sorta flip sides of the same coin with Max/Liz and Michael/Maria. The Isabelle/Alex thing never really got off the ground, so I don't really care about that one....although I do like both of those characters quite a bit.

I get the feeling that you didn't really care that much about Michael/Maria...but I think I actually like them almost as much as Maz/Liz (which is clearly the 'ship we are 'supposed' to care about). But then, I always liked Buffy/Angel...so that ought to tell you something about why I like Michael/Maria so much. :lol: I think the whole bad boy/spunky girl thing is a good offset to the whole Max/Liz soulful love-of-my-life sort of thing. I think that Max/Liz might have been a bit over the top of it hadn't been balanced out by Michael/Maria.

But of course, right now where I am in the show, EVERYTHING is pretty much off. So I'm kinda a bit depressed. :lol:

How sad is it when a TV show can make you sad in real life? :rolleyes:

And yes - addictive is it! Obviously it will take me alot longer than 10 days to watch it through - I think I started about 2 weeks ago now so I'm already over that. But at my current rates I'll probably finish by mid-March - maybe earlier if I get all worked up about some plot thread on a weekend and end up watching 5 episodes in a day or something, like I did once already. :lol: But most nights I can squeeze in two episodes. So that is moving along quite well for me. You may remember back in 2003 how I was always the last one to finish the DS9 seasons...and that hasn't changed. I'm a pokey Jane.

You know, you mentioned earlier that you thought the show had it's flaws...and I'm kinda curious what you meant by that. Because I'm almost halfway through the thing, and I have to say - I have VERY few criticisms. There are no wasted episodes...the story moves along and bits and pieces of the puzzle get revealed in each episode...the writing is good, the acting is good, and the characters likable. In fact, if it keeps going like it is, it will likely end up being one of my favorite scifi shows ever.

So I'm curious as to what you think is flawed about it.

Anyway, hope you don't mind my going on about this show. But I don't have anyone else to talk to. :p
 
^ I definitely don't mind reading all your thoughts on the show. It's a lot of fun actually. :)

First of all, I agree with you about the NY doubles that the whole thing was a bit over the top. I mean, the two episodes were reasonably entertaining, but oh so cheesy. I definitely preferred the 1947 ep. That one was fun. I really enjoy episodes where Michael is the main character.

On to the whole shipper thing. I'm actually a huge fan of Michael and Maria. I absolutely love both of those characters and their chemistry together was just awesome (just like Max and Liz's). I actually think Michael was (for the most part) a more interesting character then Max. At least as an individual. You know what I mean? With Max it was usually the situations he was in or his relationships with other people that made the show interesting. Michael was just an interesting character. But then, he was much more flawed the Max so it makes sense that he'd be more interesting.

So yeah, while I do absolutely love the Max/Liz 'ship, I also really enjoyed Michael and Maria's. And I don't wanna get into the Isabel/Alex thing just yet. You'd better watch the rest of S2 first. :)

And I don't think it's sad if a show makes you depressed IRL. I just think it makes the show has some really good writing going on. And characters that the viewer can really care about. Hell, I got so into the show that once I was done with it, I had a couple of dreams about it where I was friends with the whole gang. :D

What flaws? Well, there's one plotline in the second half of S2 that I absolutely loathe. Like... I loathe it about as much as I loathe Dubya. And I just think that story-wise S2 and S3 don't work as well as S1 did. They still have some amazing episodes but then there's also a couple of episodes that just aren't that interesting. Again, I don't wanna get into spoiler territory so that's all I'm gonna say.

Take care!
 
^ Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the NY dupes were a bit over the top. Isabel's double wasn't bad...but the other two remaining ones (after they killed Max's dupe) were just too weird. Michael's dupe was too ruthless and Tess's dupe was just bizarre.

And I agree with you about Michael being one of the more interesting stand-alone characters on the show. I think a huge chuck of that comes out of his background and how he was 'raised' - he learned at an early age to trust no one, and to respond to many situations with violence...and I think the writers did a good job of making his backstory work for his character.

One of the most interesting aspects of the show, then, for me, is watching him struggle with the issue of trust. Almost every 'situation' he gets himself into really boils down to the fact that it is very difficult for him to trust anyone other than himself.

And when you bring that general mentality into a relationship...well, it makes for a very bumpy road. Which is what we are seeing. And I think that the character of Maria is great, because it would take EXACTLY that sort of character to get to someone like Michael: to sort of make him confront himself....and at the same time earn his trust by showing him, through that confrontation, that she really cares and has his best interests at heart.

I really like Maria - she takes no shit and makes me laugh.

As for the character of Max, I know what you mean. But I think the interesting thing about him is that he IS so 'deep'. Obviously, that doesn't lead to the great action sequences or anything...but because he internalizes so much, the only way it DOES come out is when he has those interactions with others. Then you see that he is a person of great feelings...but with the exception of his feelings for Liz, does not let his feelings rule him.

I think he is a good character...but because of the nature of the character, you almost need the other characters - particularly Liz, Michael and Isabel, to see that.

Oh...and I forgot to mention it in my last post, but the second Skins episode made me like Kyle even more. Last season he was pretty annoying...but for a supporting character, he is really making a comeback this season in my opinion. He has some quirky stuff going on (the Buddhist thing - I got a kick out of him throwing the fish back and the sheriff being stunned by that!) and he has some really great, sarcastic, lines. Loved how he stood up to Max and went out to mess with the sign outside of town. :lol:

I have not had any dreams about Roswell...but then, I don't watch as many episodes at a time as you did, and that might have something to do with it. However, this morning when I was driving to work that Dido song came on the radio (the one from the opening credits), and of course that song will now be ever-associated with that show in my mind...and I found myself thinking about the show the rest of the way to work.

Sorry to hear there is a sucky plotline coming up. Hopefully it won't be as bad as Byron. :p

But I'm likely pulling up on it, so I'll probably be into it by the weekend. Hopefully I'll like it better than you did...although we tend to like so much the same stuff that it is unlikely....
 
Oh yeah, Maria is great. Honestly, apart from Tess, the whole cast kicks ass.

I also wanted to make something clear (in case I didn't before). I really do like Max, probably just as much as Michael. But like I said before, on his own he's just not as interesting, or entertaining if you will. But the way he interacts with people. The way he cares for Liz, Isabel, and Michael (and even Maria and the rest of the group) really makes him a great character. He's just one of those characters where you do actually believe he would do literally anything to protect the people he loves (and there have been times where he's had to do exactly that). So yeah, I really do like Max. He's such an awesome "human" being.

I'll be honest with you though. I think that out of all the characters on the show, Liz is my favourite. I think a lot of that has to do with Shiri Appleby's portrayal of the character. She can be vulnerable and cute one minute and then strong and willing to do whatever it takes. the next.

And well, like I've said before. IMO the only sci-fi relationship that comes close to Max and Liz is Crichton and Aeryn. Angel and Buffy are up there too, but they were doomed from the beginning I guess.

Anyway, I think I'm starting to ramble now. I also gotta get something to eat cos I'm starving. ;) So I'll talk to you later OK?


P.S.: Oh, and yeah I cannot listen to ANY Dido song without thinking of Roswell right away.
 
Well, Liz is certainly in my top 4...although to be honest, I'd not thought about it before this minute. I like Max, Liz, Michael and Maria about equally and it would be tough to pick between them.

I suppose if pressed I would probably pick Michael...but if you catch me after a good Liz-centric episode I'd likely pick her instead. And who knows how I will answer that question after I see the rest of the series? :lol:

But I think all of them are strong actors. I agree that Shiri does an excellent job...and she has probably one of the tougher roles because she gets bounced around emotionally like a ping-pong ball in that show....probably more than the others. But I think they are all good. I really can't think of a weak link on that show, in terms of acting. Even the actress who plays Tess is a good actress, I think - although I don't really like some of her facial expressions sometimes, for some reason (mostly when she is in the background, oddly enough). But she can hardly be called a weak link for that.

Alot of strong acting on that show.

And no...I didn't think you meant to imply that you didn't like Max. Who could dislike him, after all? But I do know what you mean: because his character is a rather quiet and circumspect guy, it requires the other characters to draw him out. So in that way, even though the character is a good one, the character of Max is sort of reliant upon the others.

But in a good way. :D

And yeah...I can live with Max/Liz being up there with John/Aeryn and Angel/Buffy in the 'this is how you write a ship' department. I'd probably put John Sheridan/Delenn in that category too...but you get the idea.

There are some good examples of 'ships in scifi. Too bad the Trek writers where never able to write a good one...even given 700+ episodes. :lol:

One thing that's a real pity about Roswell is that it didn't make the magic 100 episodes. So I guess it's not likely to be seen alot by potential new fans and chatted about on boards like this one. Too bad...because it really puts alot of recent scifi efforts to shame.

I, like you, saw the writer's strike as on opportunity to watch it as it was one of the few scifi series I'd not seen. I'd always sorta had it as a 'to do' in the back of my mind...but I'd never seen a single episode before two weeks ago.


So I'm not upset about the writer's strike in the slightest. If it was the price for finding this show, I'm happy to pay it. :)

Although I really miss the Pie Maker. :p
 
^ Yeah, I miss the Pie Maker too. And Chuck and Emerson as well of course. :)

Well, there were a couple of decent/good romances in Trek. The decent one was Paris/Torres and the good one was Sisko/Yates. IMO at least.

Anyway, make sure you post more of your thoughts as you watch the rest of Roswell. Sorry for the short post, but I need to get back to work, hehe. ;)
 
Okay everyone...I went through the forum tonight and marked some of our more important threads for keeping with the board move.

Antony is hoping to bring everything across...but if that doesn't work, hopefully we will have the most important bits of forum history. :D Namely, these bar threads, the B5 threads, the FAQ, and a few other things that seemed like they'd be good to keep.

The board will likely be down most of Saturday...so if I don't see you guys before then, see you at the new digs! :)
 
PKTrekGirl said:
Okay everyone...I went through the forum tonight and marked some of our more important threads for keeping with the board move.

Antony is hoping to bring everything across...but if that doesn't work, hopefully we will have the most important bits of forum history. :D Namely, these bar threads, the B5 threads, the FAQ, and a few other things that seemed like they'd be good to keep.

The board will likely be down most of Saturday...so if I don't see you guys before then, see you at the new digs! :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the heads up PK. Either see you on LJ or on the new board. :)
 
Yay, the Bar & Grill thread survived the move. ;)

So how's everyone liking the new board? Personally, I don't really see any improvement. OTOH, there are a few features the old board had that the new one doesn't (at least it would seem so). The big one being multiple polls in one thread/post.

Oh well. I guess we'll just have to deal with it. :)

It was warm and sunny here today so I took my first topless drive today. I did about 40 miles and had a ton of fun. :D
 
Well, I've only been poking around a half hour, but I think it is harder to do stuff here than at the old board.

And my PM box is FUBAR, which I don't like - especially since there are no poster names on any of the messages and it will take me about a decade to go through them all individually. Very odd.

Well, I guess I'll have to get used to it.

Supposedly the 'mod stuff' is better here - the system auto-bans people like it used to back in the dark ages before the warning utility broke. But wow...this is funky. :lol:
 
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