Balance of terror, balance of evidence?

[C57D]

Let me start by saying that I love BoT and consider one of my all time favourite TOS episodes.
But.......I have always been troubled by the evidence and logic behind the "no Human ever saw a Romulan" ( sorry paraphrased) line, so setting up Spock to appear (in Stiles eyes) to be a traitor.
This instantly assumes three things about the Earth v Romulan War a hundred years prior.
1) All battles took place in space, with no ground conflicts at all. And, no boarding party actions ever occurred. Or if they did, then all Humans involved died before they could report back the truth of their opponents appearance.
2) From BoT it has been assumed that Roms never allow a ship to be captured and so self destruct it. So, it is assumed that any losing and crippled Rom ships self destructed rather than be boarded. But surely, something would be left over - even just a body part or two, maybe enough to piece together to make an accurate observation. Even (suspiciously Vulcan like) DNA samples?
3) Romulan-ish has evolved so far over the centuries of isolation that it no longer sounds anything like Vulcan-ish. Not even a few words remain, otherwise surely the similarity would have been picked up. Earth military would have Cryptologists/Linguists studying every single snatch of recorded communications to break the enemy's language and any military codes. Surely even a small similarity to Vulcan-ish would have been noted?
I find all of the above assumptions extremely suspect and so assume that face to face Human to Romulan meetings must have been very rare and those involved were ordered to keep it quiet. Earth and Vulcan diplomats must have had some covert heated debates before agreeing that Vulcan knew as little about the Roms as Earth did. And so the whole thing was swept under the carpet after the war.
But maybe Earth held back a little from total coalition with Vulcan (part of why early TOS seems to show Earth still pretty independent, although stilll allied with the Federation?), since a suspicion remained in many influential minds. Maybe it took the Axanar incident(maybe an Earth force commanded by Garth, went to the defence of a Vulcan colony there??) to finally start cementing the growing TOS era alliance between the two?

 

[johnnybear]

Well as Chekov stated in The Deadly Years, The Romulans do not take prisoners! Plus I don't acknowledge Enterprise so I used to think that humanity took on The Romulans before they met The Vulcans but that theory was quashed by First Contact I guess!
JB

 

[C57D]

Jonnybear I like your thinking. I too don't acknowledge Enterprise and think that the TNG crew's attempt to repair the Borg's actions in FC were only partially succesfull, so causing an alternate timeline.
I have always seen Vulcans and Humans first meeting before the Rom War, but who knows, maybe not. Memories of the opponent Earth fought and their similarity to Vulcans would explain the slightly walking on eggshells relationship even in TOS times.

 

[The Old Mixer]

That humans had met Vulcans before fighting the Romulans was established in TOS itself, when Cochrane, who'd been out of circulation for 150 years, recognized Spock as a Vulcan.

 

[C57D]

That humans had met Vulcans before fighting the Romulans was established in TOS itself, when Cochrane, who'd been out of circulation for 150 years, recognized Spock as a Vulcan.

True, but wasnt he a bit hesitant in that identification? I dont have time to chase up the episode but wasnt it something like " and, I presume this is a Vulcan?". As if he had heard of Vulcans but not really encountered one close up? If so, maybe the Companion had described one to him??

 

[1001001]

Well as Chekov stated in The Deadly Years, The Romulans do not take prisoners! Plus I don't acknowledge Enterprise so I used to think that humanity took on The Romulans before they met The Vulcans but that theory was quashed by First Contact I guess!
JB

Jonnybear I like your thinking. I too don't acknowledge Enterprise and think that the TNG crew's attempt to repair the Borg's actions in FC were only partially succesfull, so causing an alternate timeline.

What do you mean, you "don't acknowledge Enterprise"?

 

[C57D]

What do you mean, you "don't acknowledge Enterprise"?

Just that in my headcanon anything that contradicts my "Classic Age of Star Trek" (ie just before TNG came out) happened in another timeline. I wanted to like Enterprise, struggled through every contradiction until the 9/11 in space storyline finally killed my interest. So for me that series does not exist. Just my eccentric personal taste.

 

[BillJ]

3) Romulan-ish has evolved so far over the centuries of isolation that it no longer sounds anything like Vulcan-ish. Not even a few words remain, otherwise surely the similarity would have been picked up. Earth military would have Cryptologists/Linguists studying every single snatch of recorded communications to break the enemy's language and any military codes. Surely even a small similarity to Vulcan-ish would have been noted?

They negotiated a treaty via subspace radio, so either no one picked up on the similarities or they were sworn to secrecy.

As much as I love TOS, I'm not exactly married to that particular line of dialogue and see room to finesse in Romulans for the right story.

 

[The Wormhole]

True, but wasnt he a bit hesitant in that identification? I dont have time to chase up the episode but wasnt it something like " and, I presume this is a Vulcan?". As if he had heard of Vulcans but not really encountered one close up? If so, maybe the Companion had described one to him??

The exact line is "you're a Vulcan, aren't you?" I never interpreted any hesitancy in the way the line was delivered. I suspect the statement was phrased as a question as a means for Cochrane to be polite, which he wouldn't be if he looked a Spock and said "oh, look, a Vulcan."

 

[Timo]

This instantly assumes three things about the Earth v Romulan War a hundred years prior.

Not all of it is left to assumption, as Spock also gives an infodump on what was different back then.

1) All battles took place in space, with no ground conflicts at all. And, no boarding party actions ever occurred. Or if they did, then all Humans involved died before they could report back the truth of their opponents appearance.

Spock sort of covers this in the bit where he says the war was "fought [..] with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels". It may be taken to literally mean the war was 100% naval, that is, spatial, with no groundside action. Or, if one prefers and still wants to remain literal, with some groundside action that involved atomic bombs rather than troops.

Spock then continues "which allowed no quarter, no captives". The "which" may refer to the ships specifically or to the whole preceding tirade. Certainly the lobbing of A-bombs would make taking of captives or showing of quarter/mercy impossible. Certain limiting characteristics of starship tech might do that, too, but Archer and his adversaries already had transporters, the ultimate boarding and capturing tool, so that's not the preferred interpretation.

It should also be noted that the very fact that Spock needs to give the exposition suggests the war was an obscure one of limited scope that most humans (including Starfleet warriors) barely remember unless it directly touched their family. This goes well with the "no ground action" concept.

2) From BoT it has been assumed that Roms never allow a ship to be captured and so self destruct it. So, it is assumed that any losing and crippled Rom ships self destructed rather than be boarded. But surely, something would be left over - even just a body part or two, maybe enough to piece together to make an accurate observation. Even (suspiciously Vulcan like) DNA samples?

TNG would have us believe that most humanoids in Trek are genetically near-matches; evidence would probably be inconclusive.

(Amusingly, if you want to exclude all Trek but TOS, you have to exclude the idea of DNA existing, so it's a win-win there. )

3) Romulan-ish has evolved so far over the centuries of isolation that it no longer sounds anything like Vulcan-ish. Not even a few words remain, otherwise surely the similarity would have been picked up.

Only if Romulans spoke Romulan to the Earthlings. Why would they do that?

In the spinoff universe, Romulan is its own language, but a starship communications officer can still be unable to tell it from the Vulcan language, even though a linguist can easily tell the two apart. This doesn't necessarily mean that the languages are closely related - it only tells us something about the difference between comms officers and linguists in Starfleet service.

In the spinoff universe, some Romulans speak a non-Vulcan language so that our ENT heroes overhear. This language may be the Romulan one, or at least one of the Romulan ones; we don't know whether this language is later associated with the war (where radio silence would probably be the norm), but we know the language is associated with the culture known as the Romulan Star Empire there and then, in the ENT episode. But that's neither here nor there, really.

Should Romulan be related to Vulcan? Probably not - the Romulans were a separate group (ethnic? political?) back on Vulcan already, and may have had a language of their own separate from the Vulcan one. Anybody speaking it on Vulcan after the Big Disagreement would probably be discouraged from doing so, meaning no human in the ENT era would be in a position to hear it spoken any more.

Earth military would have Cryptologists/Linguists studying every single snatch of recorded communications to break the enemy's language and any military codes. Surely even a small similarity to Vulcan-ish would have been noted?

Possibly. And then dismissed as statistically insignificant. After all, everybody resembles everybody in the Trek universe. If the Earthling analysts jumped to conclusions, they should not be listened to. Although hot-headed generals and admirals might choose to believe in those scientifically meaningless conclusions anyway, they would certainly be discouraged from doing so, because what would be the point of driving a wedge between humans and one of their few allies?

Earth and Vulcan diplomats must have had some covert heated debates before agreeing that Vulcan knew as little about the Roms as Earth did. And so the whole thing was swept under the carpet after the war.

Or then simply during the war, when it was vital to do so - and getting it out again once peace returned would have been political suicide.

But maybe Earth held back a little from total coalition with Vulcan (part of why early TOS seems to show Earth still pretty independent, although stilll allied with the Federation?), since a suspicion remained in many influential minds. Maybe it took the Axanar incident(maybe an Earth force commanded by Garth, went to the defence of a Vulcan colony there??) to finally start cementing the growing TOS era alliance between the two?

Heck, perhaps Axanar involved the secret suddenly getting out, and Starfleet rushing in to silence all witnesses? By the time Kirk speaks of the incident in "Whom Gods Destroy", Romulans being Vulcans would be public knowledge again, and the subject safe for discussion; any related political upheavals would have taken place far away from Kirk's ship and the cameras following her...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kor]

It makes sense that the Romulan and Vulcan languages would be nothing alike. There are plenty of languages right here on Earth that are completely different and unrelated. Try finding a common source for, say, Lakota and Basque. It can't be done.

Kor

 

[The Old Mixer]

It's worth noting that TOS was vague on the specifics of how and when the Romulans split from the Vulcans. "Return to Tomorrow" implied that it might have gone all the way back to the work of Sargon's people...plenty of time for languages to evolve beyond recognizable connections.

 

[UnknownSample]

(Amusingly, if you want to exclude all Trek but TOS, you have to exclude the idea of DNA existing, so it's a win-win there. )
Timo Saloniemi

Why? DNA was discovered in 1953, if that's what you mean...

 

[9gs]

The line by Spock, "Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous, and only the Romulans know what they think of Earth" leaves lots of wiggle room if you remember the Vulcans of Enterprise era withheld a lot of information.

 

[C57D]

Why? DNA was discovered in 1953, if that's what you mean...

I wondered about Timo's comment too. I presume its just a dig at my TOS only opinions -since DNA was not mentioned in TOS, but was in later Trek series.
So by that logic if the planet Jupiter wasn't mentioned in TOS but was (for example) in TNG then it wouldnt exist to me?
Illogical just begins to sum it up.
Either that or its a bad joke.

 

[Shawnster]

[QUOTE="Timo, post: 11936834, member: 2277"
Spock then continues "which allowed no quarter, no captives". The "which" may refer to the ships specifically or to the whole preceding tirade. Certainly the lobbing of A-bombs would make taking of captives or showing of quarter/mercy impossible. Certain limiting characteristics of starship tech might do that, too, but Archer and his adversaries already had transporters, the ultimate boarding and capturing tool, so that's not the preferred interpretation.[/QUOTE]

Depends o your definition or opinion of quarter/mercy. There were Japanese survivors of the 2 atomic bombings. People who survived a human or Romulan bombing could have been rescued/captured and treated by medical personnel.

If nothing else, sensors should have been advanced enough to zoom in and see the visual aftermath of the battles. Drones could have even carried cameras. I don't know about the Romulans but us humans have always had a knack for surveying a battlefield and recording the atrocities in detail

 

[Warped9]

What do you mean, you "don't acknowledge Enterprise"?

I don't either. Never have. Never will.

It's also possible that any evidence Earth forces got hold of that Romulans were linked to Vulcans might have been surpressed/classified because relations with the Vulcans was still tenuous. That information remains sealed such that the populations of the Federation and vast majority of Starfleet personnel would never know the truth.

Stiles could have simply had an issue with Vulcans in general and then seeing the Romulans on the bridge viewscreen just added fuel to the fire.

 

[9gs]

I don't either. Never have. Never will.

It's also possible that any evidence Earth forces got hold of that Romulans were linked to Vulcans might have been surpressed/classified because relations with the Vulcans was still tenuous. That information remains sealed such that the populations of the Federation and vast majority of Starfleet personnel would never know the truth.

Stiles could have simply had an issue with Vulcans in general and then seeing the Romulans on the bridge viewscreen just added fuel to the fire.

True. In today's government service there is having the right security clearance and there is "having the need to know". Two totally different things.

 

[scotpens]

Why? DNA was discovered in 1953, if that's what you mean...

I wondered about Timo's comment too. I presume its just a dig at my TOS only opinions -since DNA was not mentioned in TOS, but was in later Trek series.

I assumed Timo was referring to DNA analysis as an identification tool -- something that wasn't mentioned in TOS because it didn't exist until the 1980s.

(Actually, if you want to nitpick, DNA was first isolated in 1869. Its molecular structure was first accurately described by Watson and Crick in 1953.)

 

[J.T.B.]

I assumed Timo was referring to DNA analysis as an identification tool -- something that wasn't mentioned in TOS because it didn't exist until the 1980s.

DNA wasn't mentioned, no, but there was at least some behind-scenes familiarity with the concept, because Losira was using chromosome matching to identify her victims in "That Which Survives."