Bajoran-or-Cardassian First Contact w/ Federation

[John O.]

Greetings!

I'm sure that since DS9's inception this question came up at some point through its run and I missed the boat since I was... well in like middle school but the question is:

What constraints are imposed on the time period for which Bajoran or Cardassian First Contact with the Federation could have taken place?

This question really doesn't pertain specifically to DS9, it has more to do with the next installment of my post-Enterprise/2160's era fanfic and I'm interested in hearing a broad view of opinions on this.

There are a number of facts that come into play, most of which I'm sure we're all aware of as DS9 fans and don't require repeating; but briefly, we have the issue of the vast distance from Bajor to Earth, the supposedly VERY old and comparatively advanced Bajoran culture prior to the occupation, and the apparent interaction of the Cardassians and Klingons through border skirmishes referenced as having lasted "a hundred years" (implying contact at least in the 23rd century).

My primary question is this - even if 2160's Federation vessels at Warp 5-7 could not reach a distance of ~"8 weeks at high warp" as DS9 is described to be from Earth, isn't it possible that exploring Bajoran or Cardassian vessels could themselves have reached that far and perhaps interacted with Federation vessels in the Federation backyard? Or through 3rd party interactions, such as the afore mentioned Klingon skirmishes? Or inter-species trade/diplomatic ties between third parties like the Trill, Betazoids, Kressari, or other races known to have had early-Federation interactions.

Thoughts?

 

[Jono]

When was Bajor said to be 8 week at high warp from Earth? The Defiant seemed to get to Earth in a matter of days in "Paradise Lost".

I think Sisko and Dax travelled to Earth in a runabout at the start of season 5 and the max warp speed for those ships we heard them reaching was around warp 5. So small and "slow" vessels can make the journey.

Dax's second hosts met a Cardassian while he was exiled to Vulcan. We know Dax was born in 2018, so it is possible that Tobin Dax met this Cardassian prior to the formation of the Federation depending on when Dax was first implanted and how long the first host and Tobin lived. So the Vulcan might have had knowledge of the Cardassians during the period of ENT.

From a comment from Organians in "The Observer Effect" the Cardassians had travelled to a planet that was later visited by the Enterprise NX-01, so as far back as ENT tendrils of both empires were reaching of towards similar regions.

I must need to brush up on my Cardassian history because I can only remember one mention of the Klingons and Cardassians clashing pre-TNG, the Betreka (sp?) nebula incident and that only lasted a dozen years or so at some unspecified period.

So it would be possible for first contact between the two to happen pre-Federation or very early in the Federation's existence, well before TOS.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I suppose it depends on how "official" the contact is, or the degree of knowledge the Federation has. It's likely that the Federation worlds knew of a nation called Cardassia for decades if not centuries before official contact. A Vulcan ship trades with a Kressari ship which previously traded with a Cardassian outpost - the Vulcans enter Cardassia into their cultural database as a minor, somewhat distant planet with which their trade partners interact. Cardassia was in fact known as early as the 22nd century (As Jono mentioned, "Enterprise" established that Cardassians had enough space-going capability to reach Organian haunts by then, and Iloja of Prim lived on Vulcan during this period). However, because Cardassia was by no means a planet of note - just one of thousands of unremarkable worlds - it probably got entered into records without anyone in the Federation core sectors bothering with it or making official contact. It was just a world out there somewhere beyond the Kalandra sector/Trill space (if I'm allowed to make novel references, which of course are non-canon but often interesting, several TOS novels have suggested that Kalandra/Trill was the edge of the Federation sphere of influence by Kirk's time). Federation citizens and Cardassians no doubt met every now and then, but never officially, and their governments were not concerned with one another. By the 2310s, however, the military expansion is beginning. Cardassia is no longer just an unremarkable world but a nascent local power. Ships identified as Cardassian begin getting involved in fights with Federation-affiliated vessels along the border region, as well as with other powers (like the Klingons at Betreka). Eventually, official first contact is made (the novels suggest this takes place in 2327, after a few decades of unofficial "buzzings" and border incidents). By now Cardassia was an up-and-coming interstellar power. So while it had been know for centuries, it was only in the early 24th century that it became notable and invited official contact, and only then did it become anything other than an unremarkable border world among thousands of unremarkable border worlds.

Or so I assume.

 

[John O.]

There was a conversation in an episode of DS9 between Garak and possibly Bashir in which Garak went on about how surprising he thought the Klingon invasion of Cardassian space was given the generally amicable relationship between Cardassia and the Klingon Empire over the years - at which point the other person reminded him of these border skirmishes that lasted almost a hundred years.

I have always theorized that Dax could potentially be invoked in an ENT-era fic if I really wanted to. She of course mentions in "Trials and Tribble-ations" that she met McCoy on Earth as Emony Dax, some time while Bones was in college. I'm sure the dates on that could be worked out, I don't know TOS time frame well enough to speculate but probably 2220's or so. However, as me and a friend were discussing, they temporarily laze off Dax's spots when they put on the TOS uniforms, implying that even if the Trill were known to the Federation in Kirk's time, they probably were not members, and therefore any Trill seen in a uniform would be out of place.

I also can't exactly place the comment I'm citing about the 8 weeks. I checked scene by scene of "Homefront" - the episode preceding "Paradise Lost" - and I can't find hide nor hair of this 8 weeks comment I remember. I thought it was in a conversation between Sisko and Kassidy about how long he'd be gone, but apparently it's not in this episode and I can't remember when else he'd have gone to Earth before she was taken away as a Maquis. Oh well. In that particular case there's no telling how long it takes them.

Incidentally - The Defiant doesn't make it all the way to Earth in a specified time in Paradise Lost - they are intercepted by the Lakota.

An example of a time frame given for transit somewhere in the canon would be useful, I just can't remember one.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I think the "eight weeks at high warp" comment referred to the travel time between Bajor and Cestus, not Bajor and Earth.

 

[John O.]

You're correct sir, just found that here:

http://www.stdimension.org/int/Cartography/DistanceList.htm

According to that, it's 50 LY to the "core Federation worlds", whatever that means. If we just use that number, that's 1/5 of the distance it claims to Cestus III (250 LY) which means we can estimate the travel time as 1/5 of 8 weeks, or 8/5 weeks, or 11.2 days.

.... at Warp 9.2. According to the TNG scale, it'd take 55 days at Warp 6 if the distance were actually 60 LY (padding a little).

 

[Jono]

There was a conversation in an episode of DS9 between Garak and possibly Bashir in which Garak went on about how surprising he thought the Klingon invasion of Cardassian space was given the generally amicable relationship between Cardassia and the Klingon Empire over the years - at which point the other person reminded him of these border skirmishes that lasted almost a hundred years.

That conversation was about the Betraka Nebula Incident I mentioned in my last post. Bashir says it lasted 18 years.

 

[Mage]

I always found it odd that at first DS9 was implied that DS9 was quite far out there, on the edges of Federations space. Then it suddenly takes a few days to get to Earth. That just doesn't make sense to me.

I mean, listen to Picard in FC. "150 worlds, spread over 8000 lightyears." Compared to some of the maps we've seen, even those in the official Starcharts book, looking at the size of the Federation and the location of DS9, it just doesn't seem likely they could travel from DS9 to Earth in a few days.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I always found it odd that at first DS9 was implied that DS9 was quite far out there, on the edges of Federations space. Then it suddenly takes a few days to get to Earth. That just doesn't make sense to me.

I mean, listen to Picard in FC. "150 worlds, spread over 8000 lightyears." Compared to some of the maps we've seen, even those in the official Starcharts book, looking at the size of the Federation and the location of DS9, it just doesn't seem likely they could travel from DS9 to Earth in a few days.

DS9 could still be considered at the edge of Federation space if that region butted up against Cardassian space. It would still be a frontier outpost, even if that frontier was only a few days away at high warp from Earth, IMO.

 

[Mage]

Hm.... I just took a look at something I found online which looks like one of the official StarCharts from the Starcharts book. Judging from that, DS9 isn't even in Federation space.
I know Bajor wasn't a member of the Federation, but I somehow always asumed that it was in Federation space.
How official is the Starcharts book?

 

[C.E. Evans]

Hm.... I just took a look at something I found online which looks like one of the official StarCharts from the Starcharts book. Judging from that, DS9 isn't even in Federation space.

Which would support Bashir's claim of being out there doing "frontier medicine" I suppose.

I know Bajor wasn't a member of the Federation, but I somehow always asumed that it was in Federation space.
How official is the Starcharts book?

Official only in the sense that it was a licensed product, but its canoncity is zero like so many other Trek books. A lot of stuff matches with onscreen material but a lot of stuff is conjectural, personal choice, or changed to fit within the confines of the book's pages.

 

[Jono]

If you're talking about Star Trek: Star Charts, it's a licensed Star Trek product, so it is official.

Edit: Plus what C.E. Evans said about its status in canon.

 

[Sam McCord]

There are many glaring errors in the Star Charts book, which I have been telling John about, lol. I wouldn't use it as a canon reference. Both distances AND locations are terribly skewed in the book.

 

[John O.]

There are some problems with that book ( IMO ) ... although there are some bits that Sam and I disagree on. I probably consider it roughly 75% accurate, he probably more like 25%. However, I guess we need a yardstick of some sort and I don't claim to have a better one that everyone would agree on that isn't canonical. But it bothers me that it's totally 2D. That just doesn't make a lot of sense.

I agree with the idea that Bajor doesn't necessarily have to be at the furthest point from the Federation, though. Since the Federation essentially consists of societies that have at one time or another opted for membership, it's naturally going to be spread out and amorphously shaped, not just an ever-expanding blob as one might expect with an authoritarian society that expands by conquest. If you go by some of those ST: Starchart maps, there are pockets of Federation space on the opposite side of both the Klingon Empire and Romulan Empires. One might assume that in 3D there's a passage of Federation space into the page that allows transit? I don't know. But the Federation could be considered "8000 LY" across at its widest point even if Bajor's not that far.

Even so, as I was discussing with my friend, I expected it to be further than 55 days at Warp 6 or 11 days at warp 9.2. I was expecting something more along the lines of a couple years at Warp 5-6. That would have struck just the right balance between realistic and a stretch, for Cardassian or Bajoran interaction with the early Federation.

 

[indolover]

First contact may have been in Kirk's day, who knows? Or perhaps in the late 22nd century, when Archer was supposedly UFP president.

As for the distance between Bajor and Earth, I never put much stock into the 8,000 light years figure, unless it meant a cubic area of space. So in reality, the Federation is about 600-700 light years in length, but measured from a 3D angle is 8,000 light years.

 

[Canadave]

FWIW, Uhura does order a drink called a "Cardassian Sunrise" in Trek XI.

 

[John O.]

FWIW, Uhura does order a drink called a "Cardassian Sunrise" in Trek XI.

Ah fascinating, good catch.