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Backup warp reactors and engine nacelles

How "warp plasma" is used to CARRY ENERGY is a subject that's been debated in this forum several times. Some people would argue that this plasma is made up of the reactant products of the matter/antimatter reaction, but that's not really reasonable, since a m/am reaction results in essentially complete annihilation of mass and conversion of said mass into energy (in accordance with the famous E=mc^2 bit we've all seen so many times).

So what is "warp plasma?" Well, the three most common arguments seem to be:

1) It's used as a high-efficiency conductor... plasma IS very effective as carrying electrical charge, as it's totally and completely dissociated (as compared to metals where you only have loosely-bound electrons carrying that charge, in plasma the positive and negative elements are totally unbound).

2) It's used to carry heat (which I think is your argument).

3) It's used as a form of wave-guide medium (similar to fiber-optics) to carry electromagnetic energy.

There is a fourth option, of course, which is the TRUE answer:

4) It's used to carry magical mystical "technobbablish energy."

Well, addressing the three forms of energy we actually understand... electromagnetic potential differences, electomagnetic radiation, and thermal energy... are the only places we can apply real science. So I'll ignore #4.

Well, the next thing to consider is how this could actually be used to DRIVE anything.

- Electromagnetic potential differences... ie, electricity... can be used to generate all variety of field effects. We know warp drive is a field-effect system, so this seems like the most likely approach.

- Electromagnetic radiation can be used to ... well, to illuminate stuff, sometimes in very esoteric ways (and perhaps a strong enough "beam" with a perfect enough focus could actually create a pseudo-singularity?) Usually, though, unless we want to scan something or burn something, we always need to convert E/M radiation into electrical energy prior to it being useful. And even scanning really requires a conversion from E/M into something else (say a chemical film as in an x-ray, or a video camera, just for example).

I'm at a loss how thermal energy... which is, really, just vibration... would be able to be used to create a field-effect propulsion field. Perhaps you have an idea?

Well let me help you end that debate. From the updated Star Trek Encyclopedia, which is put out by Paramount and as such is considered Canon.

"In high-power mechanics, Warp plasma (also known as drive plasma) is a super-energized super heated plasma used to transfer energy from a central power source in the form of heat using magnetic conduit transfer. Then at key points runs to an EPS tap transferring that heat into usable electricity."

Now, if that much energy was being transferred in the form of HEAT, and if even the most infinitesimal amount of that escaped into the ship's interior as lost heat, you'd be vaporizing the crew.

Who the hell said anything about the heat escaping into the interior of the ship? You talked about thermodynamics earlier. I would suggest that you read more about it. Yes they have some pretty impressive insulation on WPS, that means that by the time that heat has bled through the insulation the temperature is much lower.

So you need to ensure that you have a condition where no reactant product heat can escape into the ship's interior. This would be done by the use of magnetic containment... preventing ANY physical contact between the superheated transfer medium and the containing conduits. No atmosphere, nothing. ZERO PHYSICAL CONTACT.

Just because the plasma is not touching the sides does not mean heat does not radiate to it.

but the loss per meter of plasma transfer conduit would be infinitesimal compared to the power carried by them.

And who are you to sat that? Knowing what we know about heat transfer you can make a good educated guess that the losses would be pretty decent. Also, even if it were infinitesimal it would still be a loss, thus not as effective.

The TRUTH is that we know NOTHING about this... because there is no such thing as a "warp plasma conduit" in real life. But trying to apply real science to it (as you were doing, and which I'm playing along with) means that the above statement really is nonsensical. Waste heat is waste heat. If you USE that energy for some purpose, it's not actually "waste heat" anymore, is it? It's a "tap" off of the main power out.

First off, you guys were the ones that were attempting to apply real world experience with this thread. So does that make your earlier arguments nonsensical? Also, Energy that is no longer used in the propulsion of the ship is still wasted energy in relation to its intended use.

Demonstrate, please, how you believe that HEAT somehow is translated into field-effect energy at the warp nacelles?
See the earlier explination pulled from The Star Trek Encylopedia.

I GET your point, perfectly well. But short of having the m/am reaction occur INSIDE THE WARP COILS, you'll always have this issue.
Note that I said the losses would be greater. I never said having only one core would be 100% efficient.

And in every "treknology" example we've ever been given, the reactor is always a reasonable distance from the field generation hardware (in the case of the 1701-D, for instance, it's the better part of a kilometer away!)
Holy crap, how big do you think the Enterprise was? Here is the answer. 642.51 m Stem to stern. The Core is located on decks 35 through 40. About 200 meters from the coils. IS that any where near a klick? No it is not.
 
Actually, I don't think the Encyclopedia is considered canonical, even though it probably should be. Paramount's policy has always been that ALL off-screen material is considered non-canonical.
 
Necronomicon said:Actually, I don't think the Encyclopedia is considered canonical, even though it probably should be. Paramount's policy has always been that ALL off-screen material is considered non-canonical.
Agreed. Case in point is the Tech Manual claim that phasers cannot be used at warp. We've SEEN otherwise, both in TOS and in later Trek shows.

If you read the Tech manual preface, if memory serves (and I KNOW that the Encyclopedia says so), there's a line that says that the stuff in the book is there for a guide, but it's not official unless it's seen on screen.

Oh, and other "canon" bits that got changed included the first Warp ship... look at the version in the Encyclopedia and compare it to the Pheonix in First Contact. Nothing alike.

These books are entertaining, but they're not REAL. And hell, even the shows themselves contradict other shows in the same series from time to time. It's ENTERTAINMENT, after all... and occasionally, they slip up.

Now... I think I'm going to refrain from responding to the angry post from my debating opponent, above. When someone starts blowing fuses and popping gaskets, it's time to cut the conversation short, I think. I'll keep talking to other folks but until he chills out a bit, well...
 
Yeah, I personally consider it a stupid policy. :p Sources like the Encyclopedia, though not perfect, at least have the benefit of being compiled by staff who actually worked on the show.

I once had an interesting debate with a poster on another board regarding the wreckbashes built for BOBW. Personally, I consider the models built to be canon in conjunction with Mike Okuda's descriptions of how they were built and which ships were specifically built and wrecked for the ep. He (the poster) was of the opinion that the class names were canon because they were in the Encyclopedia, but the designs were not. I found this curious since my views are based on what the modeler himself said (entirely consistent with what was seen onscreen), and said modeler was also the main author of the Encyclopedia.
 
Unicron said:
Actually, I don't think the Encyclopedia is considered canonical, even though it probably should be. Paramount's policy has always been that ALL off-screen material is considered non-canonical.

Well I guess that depends on who you talk to. Remember there are still people at Paramount that are arguing which series should be called Canon. See Canon Wars The people in charge of making that book call it canon, some of the other higher ups say it is not. But if you accept information from any of the series then you have to accept this as canon. If you do not then you are kind of a hypocrite.
 
ntypical said:
Unicron said:
Actually, I don't think the Encyclopedia is considered canonical, even though it probably should be. Paramount's policy has always been that ALL off-screen material is considered non-canonical.

Well I guess that depends on who you talk to. Remember there are still people at Paramount that are arguing which series should be called Canon. See Canon Wars The people in charge of making that book call it canon, some of the other higher ups say it is not. But if you accept information from any of the series then you have to accept this as canon. If you do not then you are kind of a hypocrite.
I'm sorry... but all you have to do is READ THE PREFACE TO THE BOOK and that argument is disproven. The authors were quite clear that they did not intend this to be anything but a reference... an AID... and that they did not intend it to "straightjacket" the creativity of the production staff in any way. They also say that anything seen on-screen will always trump anything in these books.

You said that the authors say it's canon. Prove it. Give a quote.

And you know, calling people hypocrites for questioning ENTERTAINMENT is... well... not exactly taking things in proportion, is it?
 
It doesn't matter what the authors say. What Paramount says, and has been saying for decades now (ever since Gene wrote the memo to this effect) is that the only canon is what's onscreen. Nothing else. This means books like the Encyclopedia are not canon (although that's probably a unique case, since it is simply the collected info on the series) and the novelization of TMP, which Gene himself wrote, is not canon.

Like I said, I disagree with the policy and I think it's expanded over the years to the point where it's straight-jacketed the franchise. Gene originally intended the policy simply to protect the episodes and movies as the prime source material, and he wrote this when Trek's future was far more uncertain than it is now.
 
Unicron said:
It doesn't matter what the authors say. What Paramount says, and has been saying for decades now (ever since Gene wrote the memo to this effect) is that the only canon is what's onscreen.

No Gene wrote that only the stuff he did should be called canon. So if you are going to follow what Gene said then nothing from DS9, VOY, ENT, or any of the movies that he was not a part of can be called canon. So once again I say, if you accept any of the following as canon, but are still willing to call stuff from those shows or movies canon then you are a hypocrite. It is ok to be wrong from time to time. Admitting to it is the first step in learning. Everyone can learn something from anyone else. There is no I am smarter than everyone else.

Also, there were several books in the 70s that Gene himself said should be counted into canon.

I'm sorry... but all you have to do is READ THE PREFACE TO THE BOOK and that argument is disproven. The authors were quite clear that they did not intend this to be anything but a reference.

I really wish that you people would read links when they are provided. But anyway. From the introduction to the updated version.

"We have stayed strictly with the material only from finished, aired versions of episodes and arid released versions of the films. We have not used any material from the Star Trek novels, or other publications."

Tell me how that is not canonical?

You people are only arguing to argue now.

When I debate I only deal in documented fact of the material being covered. None of my arguments have been opinions of my own. Only exerps from a cross between real world knowledge of technology and documented fact of the fictional Star Trek Universe.
 
"In high-power mechanics, Warp plasma (also known as drive plasma) is a super-energized super heated plasma used to transfer energy from a central power source in the form of heat using magnetic conduit transfer. Then at key points runs to an EPS tap transferring that heat into usable electricity."

The above description is something I've always used as scripture regarding creating my plans.

Addendum:
Dr. Einstein's epitath/equation denotes photon-energy released if matter is converted 100% into energy.
However:
1. No system is ever 100% efficient. Some matter and antimatter will not be annihilated - or not all at the same fentosecond. The residue will be plasma; ionized matter/antimatter and subatomic particles excited (heated) by the photon-energy.
2. Despite Crusher's brilliant "1:1" ratio answer at the Academy - that formula does not allow warp propulsion - it just creates energy. Said energy being used to power ship's internal systems and power the impulse drive. To be utilized by the warp coils, warp plasma (ionized matter/antimatter and subatomic particles excited [heated] by the photon-energy) must be injected between the warp coils, which use it to warp space. For warp propulsion, the ratio of matter (deuterium) to antimatter (anti-deuterium) is increased.
I think this is from TNG/and the Tech Manual. It makes some sense to me.
 
ntypical said:

No Gene wrote that only the stuff he did should be called canon. So if you are going to follow what Gene said then nothing from DS9, VOY, ENT, or any of the movies that he was not a part of can be called canon. So once again I say, if you accept any of the following as canon, but are still willing to call stuff from those shows or movies canon then you are a hypocrite. It is ok to be wrong from time to time. Admitting to it is the first step in learning. Everyone can learn something from anyone else. There is no I am smarter than everyone else.

This is a topic for a separate discussion, so after this reply I suggest we get back to the original thread topic. Gene did not say that only his personal work was canon; it would be impossible for him to do so because much of the actual production work was done by others, not him. Gene's main role was directing the vision.

The memo he wrote, which became the basis for the current policy, specifically states that no material from a tie-in source - i.e. comics, novels, games, what have you - would be official or canon. Only televised media - the original episodes and what soon became the movies - would be canon. That is what the policy says, and it's what Paramount still follows today. Hence the TMP novelization, written by Gene, is non-canon because it's a book.

The reason for this policy was the creation of the Star Fleet Battles game in the '70s, which did not use the name Star Trek but was very clearly set in the same universe and made use of a number of Trek ships designed by Franz Joseph for his famous Star Fleet Technical Manual. SFB was allowed to use FJ's designs because he had reserved authority over his own work in his contract with Gene for the SFTM, and that contract was already completed when SFB launched. Gene was now concerned because he couldn't do anything to stop the production of SFB, and he was afraid fans would start demanding that any future episodes or movies should be consistent with SFB and other non-affiliated work. The result was that he wrote the memo declaring all tie-in materials non-canon.

Now, Gene did get in trouble with other staff at this time because he claimed credit at some of the conventions for work he did not actually do, and ideas that were employed by the other staff. At least allegedly. I don't know the exact details of this controversy, but I've heard parts of it.

"We have stayed strictly with the material only from finished, aired versions of episodes and arid released versions of the films. We have not used any material from the Star Trek novels, or other publications."

Tell me how that is not canonical?

Because it's not onscreen. It's merely consistent with what's onscreen. It's the same reason why Okuda's designs for BOBW are not considered canonical, and why they're described as conjectural in the Encyclopedia. Again, stupid policy and I personally ignore it much of the time. It seems even sillier when you consider that the episodes and movies have their own inconsistencies. But as far as Paramount is concerned, there's no official design for classes like Freedom, Challenger etc. because there was no specific identification made onscreen.
 
LMFAO. Ok dude. Once again. You ignore what does not fit into your opinion. So I will simply ask that you actually read the references given before you respond again. There are links to what Gene actually said in those references. But this is like debating with a door nob.
 
One possible reason could be that two active warp cores are much more dangerous than just one active warp core. Voyager kept losing her warp core, but that's probably not a common problem. Instead overheating seems to be the problem most often encountered. It seems to me that the warp core detonates most of the time due to coolant leaks - a problem fixed on the Enterpise-E with double the coolant structures. Two active warp cores would still both be damaged the same in a fight. (Weapons fire seems to cause lots of overloads for some reason.) But you have much more the risk (4 states: both stable, primary stable secondary unstable, primary unstable secondary stable, both unstable) and double the coolant problems. Aircraft carriers are usually not fighting themselves but with airplanes.

It is also called the "warp core" after all, and it always seems to be the focus of the warp field's "poles" on graphic in TNG instead of the warp engines (otherwise why not have two saucers one front and one rear with the ship build kinda like a Romulan warbird. I bet it has some interaction with the warp field itself.
 
Well, I just read the whole page (whew!), and it seems to me that what Roddenberry considered canon depended on what mood he was in that day (first it's everything onscreen, next it's only the first two seasons of TOS, TMP, and TNG, another time it's only parts of TOS, most of the movies, etc.). And, of course, there's that lovely statement of his about how he and Paramount are partners in producing Star Trek and that he was "not permitted to make unilateral decisions any more than they are."

As far as the TNG era manuals go, it might be better to categorize them as reference works of canon material, but not necessarily canon in and of themselves.

As for TAS, I still don't buy the rationale, since by all the other criteria, it should be considered canon, plus it's been referred to by other elements that are considered canon, which puts us into the territory of how you can't be "a little pregnant." You either are or aren't, and all the TAS references being sneaked in have essentially canonized TAS, albeit through the back door.
 
I believe a backup or distributed warp reactor setup is the way to avoid single point of failure and ships with two or more hulls with seperation capability should have a limited warp capability in emergency situations. I define this with the retractable nacelles and small warp reactor for the non engineering hulls. The small nacelles which can produced high speed for a few minutes and low warp speed for lengthy periods of time would in the Galaxy class be behind hull panels or behind the saucer rim of sensor pallets that move out of the way for nacelle deployment.
Canon dispute is interesting but the main subject is whether to have distributed or backup central warp cores.
 
There is a slight contradiction in TNG's "Conspiracy". Check out Riker's dialogue with LaForge in the teaser. Riker orders the ship to Warp Six, and LaForge responds "Aye, sir. Full impulse."

This could be construed as the saucer's "impulse engines" doubling as a backup warp drive. Not so farfetched as one might think, it makes sense if the saucer is expected to serve as an escape craft in a combat situation. What good did it do for the saucer to escape in "Encounter at Farpoint" or "The Arsenal of Freedom" if it didn't have at least some limited warp capability? And what about Riker's confrontation with Locutus at Wolf 359? If the saucer didn't have at least some substantial warp power, how could it fire its phasers? (It would be logical to expect that TNG-era phasers are all powered directly by warp drive, after mention of it in TMP.)
 
Remember that impulse engines can provide faster than light speed. But they eat up a lot more energy.
 
This is a huge contradiction, based upon what's been overtly stated on-screen and in the "canon" tech manual, which states quite clearly that impulse drive is purely sublight.

However, as some of you are aware, I'm one of those who is convinced that it must be possible for "impulse" to be FTL as well, under certain circumstances.

We can't "remember" this because it's never been established on-screen or in any official or even pseudo-official fashion.

However... and if you're interested in reading more about my take on it, check out this thread:
http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/showflat....rt=all&vc=1

I'm convinced that all this fits together, and that in fact impulse drive CAN (in conjunction with other hardware) produce FTL travel.

Evidence? (All inconclusive, mind you...)

1) The Romulan War was fought over interstellar distances using ships that were limited to "simple impulse." The "Balance of Terror" ship also was "simple impulse" but clearly was not limited to sublight. Not to mention that it has what are very clearly intended to be subspace field generation nacelles (key point there in my choice of terms).

2) It's established, semicanonically, that TOS shuttlecraft were "impulse only," though again they DO have external nacelles which I believee are for subspace field generation. We've seen Kirk and Commodore Mendez in pursuit of a warping 1701 in a shuttlecraft, and we've seen a shuttlecraft moving in a measureable fashion relative to a quasar, neither of which makes ANY sense if you're talking about being limited to sublight only.

3) We know that in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" the Enterprise is damaged and is incapable of warp drive. Yet she is still able to travel across interstellar distances to get to the lithium cracking station on Delta Vega. (Note that there is no visible evidence of damage to the nacelles, just to the hardware CONTROLLING them. Lots of controller computers, mainly.)

4) We know that at some point within the prior 20 years or so before "The Cage" there was a breakthrough in FTL propulsion. According to Jose Tyler, "the time barrier's been broken" and the new ships with the new propulsion system can travel incredibly fast compared to the prior designs. Yet clearly the prior designs had SOME form of FTL propulsion. Note, also, that they were still using overtly technical terminology to discuss the propulsion system on Enterprise when Pike was in command... "time warp factor five" instead of just "warp factor five" or so forth.

5) In TNG we see that it's possible to maintain "FTL momentum" without warp engines... by handing off and maintaining a subspace field (first seen in "farpoint"). You simply need a "sustainer coil" to keep the handed-off field from decaying too much.

6) In TNG it's established that a subspace field can be used, even far away from the source of the field, to reduce the "apparent mass" of an object (allowing the Enterprise to move a massive asteroid, as I recall).

7) In DS9, we see the station moved at very high speeds in a very short time (speeds that seem obviously to exceed the speed of light, though it's not overtly stated as such). They do this by creating a stable subspace bubble around the ship and using the thrusters to move it within that field.

:cool: In TAS, we see the Bonaventure, the first ship fitted with warp drive. It's not as ancient as you'd expect and it does have a STARFLEET history and crew... not just a "testbed."

So... all this leads me to believe the following:

1) Early FTL travel was obtained by generating a subspace bubble around the vessel, which had the effect of vastly reducing the "apparent mass" of the vessel relative to the "normal universe" outside the bubble, and also of increasing, dramatically, the speed of light relative to the outside unverse. This bubble created NO PROPULSIVE EFFECT OF ITS OWN, note. But by creating this bubble, you can then use "simple impulse" and propel yourself at speeds well beyond the speed of light in the "real" universe.

2) There is an upper limit of speed within this method of propulsion, however... commonly called the "time barrier." Based upon some prior published work, as well as some common-sense analysis (not into TOO much theoretical detail mind you), I've always accepted that this is about 75C, or (on the TOS warp scale, no the TNG one) roughly the equivalent of "warp 4.2."

3) The idea behind TOS-style warp drive is that you create an assymmetrical subspace bubble. The fabric of spacetime "presses" on this bubble, trying to make it perfectly spherical, and that "pushes" the ship inside of the bubble through real space at FTL speeds in a totally non-newtonian manner.

This was probably discovered by accident, as most breakthroughs are. Some ship probably had an accident that resulted in it's subspace field generator accidentally creating an assymetrical field, and as a result the ship found itself "slipping downhill" in an uncontrolled FTL slide until they were able to disperse their field.

So... in order to go FTL, a ship would need to be able to create a stable subspace bubble (which is probably pretty easy, relatively speaking) and just use thrust-based engines inside there. But to go to WARP, you'd need to have a tremendously powerful control system to perform the subtle manipulations of the subspace field to allow it to controllably "warp" space/time locally and result in this form of propulsion.

As time went on, they played with adding more and more field generation elements... see the Tritium and the Federation class. These didn't provide the hoped-for improvements in propulsion efficiency, but they did yield information about the effects of interacting warp bubbles. Which led directly to the next major breakthrough in subspace-field-based travel:

4) Linear warp drive. Linear drive was first put into production use around the time of TMP. This was a totally different propulsion system, though based upon the same physics. In this case, the propulsion system was based upon a string of field generation coils creating NESTED, expanding bubbles of subspace, rather than having to create a stable bubble (which is probably much more power-intensive to do). The linear offset between one bubble and the next one inside of it gives a stronger field density at one end of the "composite bubble" than at the other, and by having multiple ROWS of these coils as well, you could not only have fwd and aft translation but also roll, pitch and yaw in a purely non-Newtonian fashion.

This is the same form of propulsion, without major change, in use during the TNG era. However, at some point between TMP and TNG it was determined that the energy usage of the new system was significantly different than that of the original "distorted bubble" warp drive technology, so eventually they recalibrated the scale. Around the time of TNG, however, they're seeing the folly of this recalibration, since most travel seems to occur in the asymptotic range where you increase speed vastly from WF9.95 to WF9.951, for instance. So eventually, they'll undo this politically-driven SNAFU and go back to a more reasonable scale, possibly the original TOS-type scale (which was based upon relative real-space velocity, not shipboard energy consumption as the TNG scale was).

ANYWAY... my point is that "Warp Drive" refers ONLY to the "subspace field warpage" form of FTL travel, but that does not refer to the only form of FTL travel, just the most effective and efficient one at the time of TOS/TNG/NEM.

"Simple impulse" based FTL travel is possible, and IS simple compared to warp drive, but still requires the generation of a stable subspace bubble around the ship.

That's what my "ringship" uses... a massive fusion impulse drive with a redundant pair of "simple subspace bubble" generators.
 
Cary L. Brown said:
1) The Romulan War was fought over interstellar distances using ships that were limited to "simple impulse." The "Balance of Terror" ship also was "simple impulse" but clearly was not limited to sublight. Not to mention that it has what are very clearly intended to be subspace field generation nacelles (key point there in my choice of terms).

As has been pointed out previously, a nacelle is just a housing. For all we can definitevly tell, that could be where the Romulans kept their beer. More seriously, those look more like conventional rocket engines, to me at least, than anything as high tech as a warp drive.

TNG also established that Romulan warp drives are powered by an artificial singularity, rather than the Federation or Klingon approach of using matter/antimatter annihilation. It's possible that in "Balance of Terror", the Enterprise was either unable to detect this system for whatever unknown reason, or the thing wasn't powered up and therefore didn't regeister as anything more threatening than a cappachino machine.
 
One thing is for sure: the romulan BOP did have some sort of FTL drive. Physically, it had to. There's no way around it.

Given that the BOP nacelles looked essentially the same as the Enterprise nacelles, I'd guess they were meant to be the romulan version of warp engines. Roddenberry had this little issue with rocket-like engines so I very much doubt the BOP nacelles were 'rockets'.
 
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