Babylon 5

[JD]

Is this some Babylon 5 novel?

There are 18 Babylon 5 novels, and 11 of them are considered equal to the show in terms of the canon. There are also 14 comics, which are also canonical. I haven't read any of them myself, but I do hope to track down some of them if/when I do a rewatch of the show.

 

[Hugo Rune]

The comics do pop up from time to time on places like eBay at a sensible price.

The canon books. Not so much. Import a set of any of the trilogies into the UK for a tasty £60-£80 a set.

Hugo - has somehow held out from reading the Lurkers Guide or Wikipedia for 15-odd years to find out the fate of Bester, Londo and Galen. The books, they will happen, someday.

 

[JD]

Some of the novels are available from third party sellers on Amazon US for $0.01.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Yup, and those that actually do it, want $25-40 for shipping per trilogy (or 1lb of books), plus my import taxes.

I have looked and looked, but for 1000-odd pages of novel per trilogy I can't justify the cost.

For some reason I can get the first book of each series for £3-5 a piece, but books 2-3 of each are like rocking horse doo-doo.

Hugo - will stop grumbling now

 

[JD]

I didn't realize they did that with shipping, but it does explain why they sell them so cheap.

 

[Jan]

FYI: If they're shipping from the US to the UK, the *lowest* trackable way costs $32.95.

 

[JWPlatt]

There are 18 Babylon 5 novels, and 11 of them are considered equal to the show in terms of the canon. There are also 14 comics, which are also canonical.

For something that originates in video form, if it doesn't happen on the show, or the movie, it doesn't exist. For me. For books, it must be by the same author. They can declare canon all they want elsewhere; it doesn't matter. But if JMS himself (i.e., a primary source) directly says or writes something, I'll lend it some credence, depending on his state of mind.

 

[Hugo Rune]

You know, I understand where you are coming from. Back in the day, when I was reading those Star Wars tie-in books that everyone was saying "It's the Expanded Universe, it's been signed off by George, this is canon, trust me" I took it with a grain of salt because, media empire that he had, I did not believe that any of the stories or ideas were Georges or even really passed by him for any significant approval other than "Yeah, OK, let's make one of Hans kids evil, sure, go with that, see where it goes. Now I've got an idea about a whodunnit in a Radio station...".

But in the case of the three B5 trilogies (and two single books), their full plot was developed by JMS. Sure he didn't have time to write the words on the page some have ended up reading, but where the characters start and where they end was down to JMS. So as far as "canon" goes, this one fits for me even if Peter David, Gregory Keyes and Jean Cavalos did the heavy lifting.

Hugo - Sooner or later, everyone comes to Babylon 5

 

[Jan]

But if JMS himself (i.e., a primary source) directly says or writes something, I'll lend it some credence, depending on his state of mind.

Leaving aside the 'state of mind' question, JMS wrote 10+ page outlines for the three trilogies and 'To Dream in the City of Sorrows' was written by the then-Mrs. JMS who had access to him to as questions any time she wanted. Probably the most primary secondary source one could have!

 

[Reverend]

For something that originates in video form, if it doesn't happen on the show, or the movie, it doesn't exist. For me. For books, it must be by the same author. They can declare canon all they want elsewhere; it doesn't matter. But if JMS himself (i.e., a primary source) directly says or writes something, I'll lend it some credence, depending on his state of mind.

In most cases that's a reasonably attitude since tie-in books are largely seen as just another merchandising vector and not a true extension of the show/movie. Indeed, often the showrunners have little to no say in such things and this actually is more or less true about the early B5 books.

However, the latter ones are another matter. JMS was unhappy with the quality of the aforementioned early efforts and took more direct control. As a result, the three novel trilogies plus one and a half of the standalones (as well as the comics & short stories) really are canon. As in as far as JMS is concerned, they happened in his on-screen universe and some events from the novels are even directly referenced in later scripts. Hell, some of the comics and a few of the short stories were written by JMS himself and a lot of the ones that weren't came from outlines he provided.

This is from JMS's foreword for 'To Dream in the City of Sorrows' and as you'll seem there's really no ambiguity on the matter: -

To Dream in the City of Sorrows is not simply a licensed book set in the BABYLON 5 universe. While most of the Dell books to date have contained some elements that are considered canon, this is the very first one that is considered canonical in every small detail.

What you hold in your hand is an official, authorised chapter in the BABYLON 5 story line. This is the definitive answer to the Sinclair question, and should be considered as authentic as any episode in the regular series. This, you should also know, is Kathryn Drennan’s first novel, though she’s a Clarion graduate who has been published in Twilight Zone magazine and many other fine magazines. She has also written for several television series, including BABYLON 5, for which she penned the excellent episode “By Any Means Necessary.” This novel marks the first time an original BABYLON 5 novel has been written by someone who has actually written for the series itself. Trust me. You’ll love it. Would this face lie?

J. Michael Straczynski
Executive Producer/Creator BABYLON 5
19 February 1997

 

[Marsden]

^And you're basing this on what exactly?

Sorry, I have to go one part at a time, I wrote that kind of quick.

Valen didn't find Catherine right away is my assumption only, based on the In Valens Name comic:

My name is Valen... and I have served my people like no other. I led them into fire... into darkness... into death... and they followed me without hesitation. They acclaim my victories and hail me as a great leader. They speak of my successes as if they are as infinite as the stars. And yet, for all that I've accomplished... I lie awake, listening to the screams of the dead and dying, those who are already gone, and those are yet to be born. A few words from me could avert the Earth-Minbari conflict. A warning to Delenn or Duhkat... But without the war, there would be no Babylon 4 and no Babylon 5. There would be no rallying point against the Darkness... and the Shadows would win, now and a thousand years from now. I cannot deviate from the circle of which I am a part. I am the beginning of the story, as Zathras said... and a prisoner of it. I dare not change the end. Still... it's been a good life... lives... over all. Delenn, Catherine, Susan, Michael... if any of you see this somehow.. don't cry for me. For in the final analysis, I've always been too hard on myself. I'll be content to let history judge me, and all that has been done in Valen's name. And as for me... I've received my own reward, because I've found her. At long last... I've found... her."

I think it's the "at long last" that makes me think she was found after many things and not right away. Also, as per To Dream in the City of Sorrows, that's where Catherine got "lost". and it was in the time "anomaly" from the Great Machine, so she could have popped out the same age years later.

So based on that^ I continued with: he had a Minbari spouse, because I think Sinclair had some emotions for Delenn and being a new Minbari and instantly an important person, would have had fans and admirers that he may have found one or several (are Minbari monogamous?) that he had feelings for and children. Children that would be mostly Minbari but with some Human "contamination" and not "pure".

Then I extrapolated: then the scandal was that he located Catherine and left.


This guy totally redid the whole Minbari culture. Is from many sources.

He didn't do that with a Human wife, a race/species that Minbari never met and wouldn't for a very long time: My assumption again, based on Minbari pride and culture that were on display in any number of places, mostly the show.


He reorganized the castes, created the Grey Council, and started that Minbari don't kill Minbari thing. The worker caste was sub-Minbari before this, as well. This is in several places through the show, too and in To Dream in the City of Sorrows.



Then Valen, a Minbari not born of Minbari, had to leave. But the gene pool was "polluted": And that followed from the above.

And specifically, I don't think Catherine ever was transformed, and any children if any children existed, were not mostly MInbari. The Minbari decendants would have been almost completely Minbari, say 85% or more, because the thing that creates the Chrysalis changes the person most of the way, but not completely. And this is all conjecture, I'm not sure how much is left of the original species.

It's wonderfully constructed and complicated. That's why B5 is the best show ever. And I say that with no sarcasm or hyperbole, I truly believe it's the best show ever made. Anybody can nitpick something here or there, but every show has problems. JMS himself said something like as long as the great and good episodes outnumber the poor ones, they are doing pretty good. So, it's not "perfect" nothing really is, but it's the BEST when taken as a whole. And I'm done blathering now.

 

[Reverend]

I'm not saying it's *impossible* that Valen had a Minbari partner or spouse, but it seems highly unlikely.
Aside from there being no evidence whatsoever of more than one partner (human, Minbari or no) and the fact that Sinclair has always been the more solitary type, the idea that he'd be essentially celibate until Catherine appeared (how and whenever that happened) seems more in keeping with what we know for a fact. Plus to the Minbari he was essentially a living prophet, the next best thing to the living divine quite literally delivered to them by winged angels. That sort of thing is only going to magnify the nominal level of isolation any leader would experience. I can't imagine any Minbari woman would even *think* about making an advance and it seems very unlikely that Sinclair would be making any advances.

To me, Catherine being Valen's wife is just the simplest explanation.

 

[Marsden]

I'm not saying it's *impossible* that Valen had a Minbari partner or spouse, but it seems highly unlikely.
Aside from there being no evidence whatsoever of more than one partner (human, Minbari or no) and the fact that Sinclair has always been the more solitary type, the idea that he'd be essentially celibate until Catherine appeared (how and whenever that happened) seems more in keeping with what we know for a fact. Plus to the Minbari he was essentially a living prophet, the next best thing to the living divine quite literally delivered to them by winged angels. That sort of thing is only going to magnify the nominal level of isolation any leader would experience. I can't imagine any Minbari woman would even *think* about making an advance and it seems very unlikely that Sinclair would be making any advances.

To me, Catherine being Valen's wife is just the simplest explanation.

Good points all around, but I always thought the Minbari religious didn't have a problem with reproducing that some other religious groups do. And a solitary type would be the kind to fall in love that much harder when it happens. But I doubt there's a "right" answer.

 

[Reverend]

Saying "Minbari courtships are highly ritualised" is like saying "the air is a bit thin on the moon". As such, while yes, they're don't seem to have a particular problem with sex per see (especially when a person's first time can have an audience of family members), they're far from free with their relationships. Not unlike the Centauri (to say nothing of many real world cultures), marriage is a matter for the family, or clan, in this case. The clan must approve of any unions, enforce terms and even veto any liaisons. Hell, half the scandal with Catherine may have simply been they didn't follow any of the "proper" Minbari rituals.

That's all deeply ingrained culture and tradition and existed long before Valen showed up. He didn't invent the clan and caste system, he just re-organised it so no one group could dominate the others as had happened in the times prior.

So yeah, taking a Minbari bride would have been far from a straightforward matter, least of all finding one who would even consider herself worthy. Remember, to them he was more god than man and for the piously religious, that generally equals unobtainable. Indeed the very idea would probably be inconceivable to most.

It's all a bit moot though since we just circle back to the basic fact that we've no reason to think Sinclair would have even been interested in anyone else at that time in his life.

 

[Marsden]

Saying "Minbari courtships are highly ritualised" is like saying "the air is a bit thin on the moon". As such, while yes, they're don't seem to have a particular problem with sex per see (especially when a person's first time can have an audience of family members), they're far from free with their relationships. Not unlike the Centauri (to say nothing of many real world cultures), marriage is a matter for the family, or clan, in this case. The clan must approve of any unions, enforce terms and even veto any liaisons. Hell, half the scandal with Catherine may have simply been they didn't follow any of the "proper" Minbari rituals.

That's all deeply ingrained culture and tradition and existed long before Valen showed up. He didn't invent the clan and caste system, he just re-organised it so no one group could dominate the others as had happened in the times prior.

So yeah, taking a Minbari bride would have been far from a straightforward matter, least of all finding one who would even consider herself worthy. Remember, to them he was more god than man and for the piously religious, that generally equals unobtainable. Indeed the very idea would probably be inconceivable to most.

It's all a bit moot though since we just circle back to the basic fact that we've no reason to think Sinclair would have even been interested in anyone else at that time in his life.

Indeed, I agree with these points as well. I just wonder if there isn't some "requirement" of someone that important to have progeny.

Also, I wonder, now that we are talking about him so much:

Would Valen have belonged to a caste?

If so, which one?

Dukaht's cast was never explicitly mentioned, but he seemed to be Religious. I wonder if the leader has to "discard" their caste? But then, growing up in a caste would be hard to change one's point of view, the upbringing would still color their perceptions.

There were many things B5 couldn't cover in more detail, either because of the compressed schedule in season 4 or because the would have ground things to a halt. I'm grateful that we got The Price of Peace and To Dream in the City of Sorrows to fill in a lot of Sinclar's story. I just wish we could have gotten more of the Minbari Civil War. That was very interesting and wrapped up really well, but kind of quickly. Plus it was a story about B5, not Minbar, but still.

 

[WB2]

Where is it supported that Valen had a Minbari wife?

 

[Aeon]

I'm delighted that I introduced Babylon 5 to my mother. She is a bit older (obviously because I'm over 30) but she has quite a track record from 24 to Lost to Stargate. Most recently she has watched things like Hannibal and Person Of Interest. Her reaction was pretty lukewarm, not quite sure if this is something that she would like to watch for five seasons. It can be quite a feeling when the kid just brings five boxes in front of you and says this is the next show you should watch! But now she likes it.

There were other so called WHAM! episodes already but Babylon Squared was the first HUGE shocker for obvious reasons. It's always fun to watch with someone new and look at their faces at the right moment. The quick flashforward put her on the edge of her seat and when the blue space suit opened up, let's just say her jaw was floored. "What the f..." Then Chrysalis came and that was obviously another one, wasn't there for those reactions, but she said it was just brilliant. I don't think she quite connects all the hints yet to what all of this stuff with Morden and those pesky spidery ships mean, but she is worried and doesn't like where Londo seems to be going. Smart.

At the moment she has watched the season two opening Points Of Departure and has serious doubts about Sheridan. She would like Sinclair back, because that guy doesn't feel right and he smiles too much. I had to repeat G'kar's words: "No one here is exactly what he appears."

Sooooooo, it has been a while but we are at the middle of the story right now. It took a while and since I want to be there for the biggest and the best episodes, but there has been some problems with my schedule. Anyway, my mother likes Sheridan now! Yay! Not really a surprise for anyone here. The episode today was Interludes and Examinations. Wonderful and tragic episode and she was on the edge of her seat from the beginning to the end. Loved the story with Franklin and loved the overall arc story. Stunned reaction to certain plot developments. Awesome to see a newbie reacting and experiencing this for the first time.

 

[David cgc]

Would Valen have belonged to a caste?

If so, which one?

"Sorrows" said that Valen was "Of the three castes, and not of the three castes." Sinclair's sponsors used this one of their justifications for making him the full-fleged Entil'zha, not just Ranger One. Sinclair had been educated by priests, done manual work before he entered Earthforce, and become a career military man, but was also not a member of any Minbari caste (for obvious reasons). IIRC, Sinclair himself thought this line of reasoning was a bit thin.

One of the interesting things about the story is that when it ends, Sinclair is extremely resistant to the idea he has a destiny. That "I am the arrow that springs from the bow" thing he says in "War Without End" is something Ulkesh told him, and he thought it was bullshit, then. Apparently, the only person who could convince Sinclair he was a key gear in the mechanism of history was his own future self.

 

[Aeon]

Now that I think about it after seeing B5 for a hundred times and seeing some cracks in the story...

Spoilers up to third season's Interludes and Examinations and ponderings about Kosh!

Spoiler

If B5 ever gets the reboot one of the things that should be fixed is the lack of Kosh. I mean, what did he really really do before he died? I suppose Sheridan points that out that he has just been standing there looking all cryptic but in hindsight there should have been more, a lot more in their student/mentor-relationship. Showed a cryptic dream, showed a moment of perfect beauty, saved the guy from splattering all over the garden aaaaaand... yeah, that's about it. During the third season... nothing. Absolutely nothing at all happened between Sheridan and Kosh until Interludes and Examinations. The last scenes certainly are trying very hard to make up for the lost time, but I don't think it quite works when you look back the season.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Well I just finished the final 2 episodes and this show still gets to me. I shed a tear or two, or three....

I haven't felt that moved by a series ending in any other series.


Though funny things I noticed, Vir as emperor, but is he keepered or keeperless? I do wonder, and in Objects at Rest what was that weird scene with Delenn? I think it was Londo's keeper thing looking at her and we had this weird screen from its POV. Just seemed like a weird moment in the episode.

I love B5.