Babylon 5

[Gov Kodos]

Ok, it's done. I have finished. First off let me say I really enjoyed the series on a whole. Great storytelling, interesting characters. I am looking forward to the movies, and the re-watch.
The finale... kind of disappointed. Felt lack luster, and kind of boring. Sorry. No Londo? No explanations about the urn he gave Sinclair for his kid? How did G'Kar end up killing Londo? Will these questions be answered later? I was expecting more.

It's all in the show. Londo is dead at the time of the party, about 3 or so years I think. The urn has one of those keepers in it. David opens the urn at 16 and is compelled to go to Centauri Prime, Sheridan and Delenn went after him and got caught and we saw them in prison. G'Kar it would seem was there to help Delenn and Sheridan, I guess, but didn't get caught. One can guess that was with the help of a changeling net if you follow only the show but you'd need to remember The Gathering for that. It is stated in the novels but the idea is hinted in the show. Londo did get his wish from Voice in the Wilderness, dying on his feet doing something noble, brave, and foolish.

But, maybe it will look better should you watch the series again. A lot of stories have a great deal of background but the hints and pieces are scattered throughout the show and not always part of a main plot so they can be missed. B5 is a show I find very rewarding to rewatch for that alone.

 

[tomalak301]

Ok, it's done. I have finished. First off let me say I really enjoyed the series on a whole. Great storytelling, interesting characters. I am looking forward to the movies, and the re-watch.
The finale... kind of disappointed. Felt lack luster, and kind of boring. Sorry. No Londo? No explanations about the urn he gave Sinclair for his kid? How did G'Kar end up killing Londo? Will these questions be answered later? I was expecting more.

What did you think of Garibaldi and his drinking. The scene where he fires everyone and takes over Edgar Industries is one of my favorite scenes in all the sci fi series I've seen.

 

[RJDiogenes]

^^ One thing I didn't like is that Garibaldi's alcoholism arc never felt resolved. He screwed up, resulting in people dying, and just moved on to become the head of Edgar Industries.

I got that it had one of those parasites in it, but it was suppose to be given to Sheridans kid on their 16th birthday... but then nothing.

Ominous portents.

 

[Snatcher42]

I got that it had one of those parasites in it, but it was suppose to be given to Sheridans kid on their 16th birthday... but then nothing.

Re-watch War Without End Part 2. In broad strokes all the answers are there.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Ahhh the books, the books!!

I'm sure they do exist out there in the world, but here in the UK they have been a nightmare to try and track down. To the point where I have given up. Barring the occasional dog eared copy you can have shipped in from the US for £12 a copy (before import charges), no half decent selection of the 9 mythical books have popped up on eBay or Amazon Market Place.

And yet, though I am sure there are some lovely insights into Londo, Bester and an enigmatic Technomage (not to be named or spoken of for fear of spoilers), I've never been that pressed to want to go to such extreme lengths to read them. The series works wonderfully for me. It was always meant to be a "snapshot" in time. A retelling of a crucial moment in the Galaxy where a small group of heroes made a "big damned difference" and paid a "big damned price". And then the galaxy continued... in the same way that there are great stories to be told about the reformation of Europe or the work that Roosevelt tried to complete after the war, telling a story about the end of WW2 without the complete fallout does not diminish its power.

SiL is one of the great codas of modern TV. The story was told. It is as much a reflection on the journey as a whole as it is the story of Sheridan's final days. It's beautifully shot and the actors are at the tops of their games. But, almost more than that, Christopher Franke just tore me apart with his music. Until the likes of Bear McCreary, Max Richter and Michael Giacchino, there were not many TV music composers whose work was as integral (and its own unique character) as Frankes on B5. Every year he produced something beautiful and unique for the Series Theme and each year he would make the drama sing, or sob with his suites. But in SiL, when B5 is decommissioned, he killed me.

I am sad to hear that the finale did not touch you. Not because you do not think as I, but rather there is nothing more frustrating than reaching the end of the story and feeling unsatisfied. I hope (in a few years) you decide to give the show a re-watch and perhaps your opinion will change. Perhaps it will not. But, I have no doubt your B5 experience will be all the richer for it. No other show rewards a 2nd viewing as much as B5. Even if you do have to watch that terrible half of "Grey 17 is Missing" again

It is an ending but not the ending.

Hugo - The other half of "Grey 17 is Missing" is frankly brilliant

 

[Reverend]

^^ One thing I didn't like is that Garibaldi's alcoholism arc never felt resolved. He screwed up, resulting in people dying, and just moved on to become the head of Edgar Industries.

Well that's life.

Not sure what kind of resolution you were looking for. You can never just *stop* being an alcoholic (or addict of any kind) since there's no cure for it. You can go five, ten or twenty years without touching a drop but you're still an alcoholic. Likewise this isn't Garabaldi's first bout, or even his second, though I'm fairly certain it was his last.
As for running Edgar Industries, that wasn't a reward, it was the result of marrying Lise and was always his intention. He only stuck around with the Alliance to help get things up and running out of a sense of duty and responsibility.

 

[JWPlatt]

If the issue was brought up on the show, it should be resolved on the show.

That's right! Or it doesn't count. Though I would accept the official scripts or outline written by the creator of a cancelled show as sufficient. All else are weasel words.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

About "Sleeping in Light":

Spoiler: SIL

The credits have a message which indicates this episode is a documentary, made by ISN, decades after the fact. Does this only apply to "Sleeping in Light" itself, or is the entire SERIES a documentary? Because that would be kind of weird, IMHO.

Especially since there was an earlier episode ("And Now For A Word") which takes place at ISN. So they're making a documentary about themselves?

 

[Reverend]

^I think the implication there is that they would have used actual archive footage from the old ISN report.

No, the real head scratcher is "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars". There's no way that is part of an ISN documentary, which means the rest of the show is part of that archive they're uploading to New Earth, but then what about the movies, Crusade, the comics, the books, the Lost Tales or Legends of the Rangers?

It really depends on how far you're willing over think it.

 

[Jan]

That's right! Or it doesn't count. Though I would accept the official scripts or outline written by the creator of a cancelled show as sufficient. All else are weasel words.

While not shown in any detail, we do know in broad strokes what happened with David.

Sheridan's son - we guess he survived the Drak and their intended keeper?

This will also be covered in the Centauri Prime trilogy...but if you sit
back you can do some of the work to figure out a large part of this. As Londo
states, his situation in WWE2 (Sheridan and Delenn captured on Centauri Prime)
takes place 18 years after the events in 2260, which would put it at 2278. The
urn, given to Sheridan in 2262, is supposed to be given to the heir at the
occasion of his/her 16th birthday, by Centauri tradition.

That would put the urn presentation at...ding!...2278.

In 2278, Sheridan and Delenn have been drawn to Centauri Prime. We know
their son is involved, because Delenn says "David is safe." So they were
somehow able to save him, because we know that in 2281, David is alive
and well and serving in the Rangers (SiL).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

No, the real head scratcher is "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars". There's no way that is part of an ISN documentary, which means the rest of the show is part of that archive they're uploading to New Earth, but then what about the movies, Crusade, the comics, the books, the Lost Tales or Legends of the Rangers?

It really depends on how far you're willing over think it.

It could all be a "holodeck"-type thing, like the Deconstruction scenes with Daniel.

Meaning, when we watch a normal B5 episode with, say, Sinclair, we're not seeing Michael O'Hare playing an actor playing Sinclair. We're watching a holodeck program. So the documentary would be the 'real' events with added commentaries after the fact.

 

[Kail]

I did say sorry. I knew it wouldn't be a popular opinion on the finale. I guess my main disappointment was with that damn urn. The next to last episode set it up as this ominous thing Londo has done, a ticking time bomb waiting to wreck havoc on their unsuspecting child! Cut to 20 years later... nothing. Everybody got old. Sheridan's time is up, they all get together one last time and he takes off to points unknown. The end. I don't know, I just expected something more. A crown jewel of an episode. I would have included the urn to add some jeopardy into the plot. Get everybody back together for one last adventure to save Sheridan's son. Then Sheridan can ride off into the sunset. Or show us the events leading to G'Kar killing Londo. Perhaps the finale would work better for me if it actually were made 20 years later, as a reunion show. I may just be missing the point.
I really enjoyed the episodes leading to the finale. Garibaldy's arc came to a successful conclusion. Great bit of business with the board of directors.
G'Kar and Lyta riding out together into the great unknown is cool. Lot's of potential story possibilities there which eventually would bring G'Kar back to Londo's side to put him out of his mystery.
One story point I was never clear on. When G'Kar mind melded with Londo, I thought the point was that G'Kar learned Londo was responsible for bringing the Shadows down on that first Narn outpost. I thought that was why he was so happy in prison, he had learned Londo's secret. I guess I misread that because G'Kar never brought it up.
Londo and G'Kar were my two favorite characters. Their scenes together were electric. So many twists and turns in their relationship. G'Kar flying off with Lyta surprised me. I had assumed G'Kar would stay on with Londo as his bodyguard, thus bringing him the point we saw in the flash forward.
I'm going to get the movies, I've seen them packaged all together, watch them, then do a re-watch. Great show. Thanks to everybody who came along on my road to B5.

 

[Aeon]

Well, life goes on. Things happen and keep happening in the future, so nothing can be resolved completely. There will always be more questions. I think that if one expects a finale that is "full of plot" then I'm sure that can be very disappointing. Sleeping In Light is more of an emotional farewell / send off.

The first rewatch will be very interesting, I'm sure.

 

[DonIago]

That is NOT what I wanted hear. If the issue was brought up on the show, it should be resolved on the show.

I don't think I've ever seen a tv show that fully resolved every issue I was hoping it would.

LOST is certainly a glaring example of that problem, though I also feel that those who were watching LOST hoping every question would be answered were a) kidding themselves, and b) didn't entirely understand what the show was fundamentally about.

 

[Reverend]

I did say sorry. I knew it wouldn't be a popular opinion on the finale. I guess my main disappointment was with that damn urn. The next to last episode set it up as this ominous thing Londo has done, a ticking time bomb waiting to wreck havoc on their unsuspecting child! Cut to 20 years later... nothing. Everybody got old. Sheridan's time is up, they all get together one last time and he takes off to points unknown. The end. I don't know, I just expected something more. A crown jewel of an episode. I would have included the urn to add some jeopardy into the plot. Get everybody back together for one last adventure to save Sheridan's son. Then Sheridan can ride off into the sunset. Or show us the events leading to G'Kar killing Londo. Perhaps the finale would work better for me if it actually were made 20 years later, as a reunion show. I may just be missing the point.
I really enjoyed the episodes leading to the finale. Garibaldy's arc came to a successful conclusion. Great bit of business with the board of directors.
G'Kar and Lyta riding out together into the great unknown is cool. Lot's of potential story possibilities there which eventually would bring G'Kar back to Londo's side to put him out of his mystery.
One story point I was never clear on. When G'Kar mind melded with Londo, I thought the point was that G'Kar learned Londo was responsible for bringing the Shadows down on that first Narn outpost. I thought that was why he was so happy in prison, he had learned Londo's secret. I guess I misread that because G'Kar never brought it up.
Londo and G'Kar were my two favorite characters. Their scenes together were electric. So many twists and turns in their relationship. G'Kar flying off with Lyta surprised me. I had assumed G'Kar would stay on with Londo as his bodyguard, thus bringing him the point we saw in the flash forward.
I'm going to get the movies, I've seen them packaged all together, watch them, then do a re-watch. Great show. Thanks to everybody who came along on my road to B5.

G'Kar wasn't "happy" because he found out Londo was behind the Shadow attacks (quite the opposite) no, the contentment/spiritual peace he displayed in prison was because the experience (thank's to Kosh's intervention) provided him with an epiphany. This is where his whole attitude and outlook changed when he saw the cycle of violence for what it was.

This is why in the later episodes he struggled to get his followers to understand that the part of his book that denounce the Centauri were written before that event, when he was a much angrier person.

This actually brings up one of my favourite scenes on the whole show: the exchange between G'Kar and Kosh speaking to him through the image of his father. If you're paying attention, you'll note that this is also where we see that Kosh has changed as well. If you'll indulge me: -

-We are a dying people, G'Kar. So are the Centauri. Obsessed with each other's death until death is all we can see and all we deserve

-The Centauri started it

-And will you continue until there are no more Narns and no more Centauri? If both sides are dead, no one will care which side deserves the blame. It no longer matters who started it, G'Kar. It only matters who is suffering

-No.No, I have an obligation to honor my father's name.

-And how have you chosen to honor that name? What is there left for Narn if all of creation falls around us?There is nothing. No hope, no dream, no future, no life unless we turn from the cycle of death toward something greater. If we are a dying people let us die with honor by helping the others as no one else can.

-I don't understand.

-Because you have let them distract you, blind you with hate. You cannot see the battle for what it is. We are fighting to save one another. We must realize we are not alone. We rise and fall together. And some of us must be sacrificed if all are to be saved. Because if we fail in this then none of us will be saved and the Narn will be only a memory.You have the opportunity, here and now, to choose.To become something greater and nobler and more difficult than you have been before. The universe does not offer such chances often, G'Kar.

-Why now? Why not earlier? All this time, where have you been?

-I have always been here.

Now read that back through and apply it to the Vorlons and the Shadows instead of the Narn and the Centauri and suddenly, it becomes very clear why Kosh chose to sacrifice himself later on. Remember, this is the same Vorlon who said to Sinclair in season 1: -

"They are alone. They are a dying people; we should let them pass."
"Who, the Narn or the Centauri?"
"Yes."​

Clearly his attitude has changed somewhat.

 

[Jan]

I did say sorry. I knew it wouldn't be a popular opinion on the finale. I guess my main disappointment was with that damn urn. The next to last episode set it up as this ominous thing Londo has done, a ticking time bomb waiting to wreck havoc on their unsuspecting child! Cut to 20 years later... nothing. Everybody got old. Sheridan's time is up, they all get together one last time and he takes off to points unknown. The end. I don't know, I just expected something more. A crown jewel of an episode. I would have included the urn to add some jeopardy into the plot. Get everybody back together for one last adventure to save Sheridan's son. Then Sheridan can ride off into the sunset. Or show us the events leading to G'Kar killing Londo. Perhaps the finale would work better for me if it actually were made 20 years later, as a reunion show. I may just be missing the point.

Nobody's upset. I'm a little sad that you didn't get as much out of SiL as many of us did. Your reaction is understandable and nobody's bashing. Except, to me, your reaction is more appropriate for a plot-driven show. B5 was first and foremost a character-oriented show. And structured like a novel so SiL would be the final denouement.

And thanks for taking us along for the ride. We can't experience the show for the first two times except vicariously.

 

[Forbin]

I was also disappointed about Garibaldi's alcoholism subplot.
I was under the impression that he started drinking because he found out that being drunk would suppress Bester's 'Azimov' command, and allow Garibaldi to kill him. I think that if that ever WAS the intention, then jms et al forgot all about it as the show went on. It just sort of went on as another preachy after-school special, that we've seen before on many other shows.

 

[Forbin]

Sleeping in Light:
I cried my head off.
Then after my father passed away in 2003, Mom mentioned that she missed sitting at the breakfast table and watching the sunrise with him. So now I have no hope in hell of NOT crying when I watch it.

 

[Snatcher42]

I did say sorry. I knew it wouldn't be a popular opinion on the finale. I guess my main disappointment was with that damn urn. The next to last episode set it up as this ominous thing Londo has done, a ticking time bomb waiting to wreck havoc on their unsuspecting child! Cut to 20 years later... nothing. Everybody got old. Sheridan's time is up, they all get together one last time and he takes off to points unknown. The end. I don't know, I just expected something more. A crown jewel of an episode. I would have included the urn to add some jeopardy into the plot. Get everybody back together for one last adventure to save Sheridan's son. Then Sheridan can ride off into the sunset. Or show us the events leading to G'Kar killing Londo. Perhaps the finale would work better for me if it actually were made 20 years later, as a reunion show. I may just be missing the point.

I felt the same way about Sleeping in Light at first, too. I wanted something more action packed, like the nuBSG finale. But on re-watches SiL holds up way, way better as a final goodbye.

The urn... yeah I'm not sure it was the best move introducing that how they did, but it was the last piece of the puzzle to figure out why Sheridan and Delenn were on Centauri Prime in War Without End, and why Delenn said their son was safe there. And if the final episode HAD been about those events, then a lot of it would just be a clip show re-using that footage.

As Jan's quote from JMS points out, we do basically know what happened: David's given the urn on his 18th birthday, gets infected with a keeper, Sheridan and Delenn go to Centauri Prime to rescue him (successfully), the truth about the Drakh is revealed, Londo and G'Kar kill each other allowing Sheridan to escape, Vir becomes emperor, and (we can assume) the Drakh are driven from Centauri Prime. The details are spelled out in the books, but you don't NEED to read them to know what happened.

As I mentioned once before, I often like to bookend my B5 viewings with the TV movie "In The Beginning", because it does offer a bit more insight into this.

 

[Jan]

I was also disappointed about Garibaldi's alcoholism subplot.
I was under the impression that he started drinking because he found out that being drunk would suppress Bester's 'Azimov' command, and allow Garibaldi to kill him.

Alcoholics don't have reasons for falling off the wagon. They just do so. What Garibaldi said about being in control was an illusion, a rationalization like most alcoholics come up with. And wouldn't it have been pretty weak for Garibaldi to drink to suppress the 'Azimov' (thereby trying to kill Bester while impaired?!?) and for Londo to also drink to put his Keeper to sleep? That would have been flat-out bad writing!

I do agree with posters above that it was a little disappointing that Garibaldi never really even displayed any guilt over the crisis and deaths that his drinking caused.

Then after my father passed away in 2003, Mom mentioned that she missed sitting at the breakfast table and watching the sunrise with him. So now I have no hope in hell of NOT crying when I watch it.

I'll bet. But what a nice memory for her to have and now, for you to have of him & her.