Babylon 5: Season Four Crunch

[Mr Light]

Fair enough Christopher, I was just saying that in my spare time as a laugh I came up with all the episodes, whereas he was doing it as his occupation. I'm not poo-poo-ing him, he's my idol, I just find it odd is all. The first thing I usually think of is placement and format, where does this fit into the frame of the story?

 

[DWF]

Yeah it's a real shame the Great Machine didn't get used in the Shadow War. I would rather have a third recast of the actor than just have it disappear like that. But why couldn't they have just regressed to the original actor, who then went on to appear twice in Season Three as the monk?

JMS has said that the point of the war wasn't who had the biggest gun so I have no problems with him not using the Great Machine.

 

[sidious618]

Yeah it's a real shame the Great Machine didn't get used in the Shadow War. I would rather have a third recast of the actor than just have it disappear like that. But why couldn't they have just regressed to the original actor, who then went on to appear twice in Season Three as the monk?

JMS has said that the point of the war wasn't who had the biggest gun so I have no problems with him not using the Great Machine.

It was supposed to be used during the Earth Civil War, IIRC.

 

[Mr Light]

Well they used it to broadcast the Voice of the Resistance for the Earth War. Since Clark never attacked Babylon 5 again, what else would it have been good for? Unless Clark did attack B5 again in the original version?

 

[DWF]

Well they used it to broadcast the Voice of the Resistance for the Earth War. Since Clark never attacked Babylon 5 again, what else would it have been good for? Unless Clark did attack B5 again in the original version?

It was used to pull B4 though time by opening a temporal portal.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

My version:

1 "The Hour of the Wolf"
2 "Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?"
3 "The Summoning"
4 "Falling Toward Apotheosis"
5 "The Long Night"
6 Additional Shadow war episode
7 "Into the Fire"
8 "Epiphanies"
9 "The Illusion of Truth"
10 "Thirdspace, Part 1"
11 "Thirdspace, Part 2"
12 "Atonement"
13 "Racing Mars"
14 "Lines of Communication"
15 "Conflicts of Interest"
16 "Rumors, Bargains and Lies"
17 Additional Minbari civil war episode
18 "Moments of Transition"
19 "No Surrender, No Retreat"
20 "The Exercise of Vital Powers"
21 "The Face of the Enemy"
22 "Intersections in Real Time"

There's also the option to use "Intersections in Real Time" as the Season 5 opener and add an additional Shadow war or Earth civil war episode. Of course, you'll also have to slightly modify "Atonement" and "Thirdspace" to make it all fit.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Alright, I tried to re-work it a bit and included Season 5.

　
Season 4

1 "The Hour of the Wolf"
2 "Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?"
3 "The Summoning"
4 "Falling Toward Apotheosis"
5 Additional Shadow war episode
6 "The Long Night"
7 Additional Shadow war episode
8 "Into the Fire"
9 "Epiphanies"
10 "The Illusion of Truth"
11 "Thirdspace, Part 1"
12 "Thirdspace, Part 2"
13 "Atonement"
14 "Racing Mars"
15 "Lines of Communication"
16 "Conflicts of Interest"
17 "Rumors, Bargains and Lies"
18 Additional Minbari civil war episode
19 "Moments of Transition"
20 "No Surrender, No Retreat"
21 "The Exercise of Vital Powers"
22 "The Face of the Enemy"
　

Season 5

1 "Intersections in Real Time"
2 "Between the Darkness and the Light"
3 Additional Earth civil war episode
4 "Endgame"
5 "Rising Star"
6 "No Compromises"
7 "The Paragon of Animals"
8 "Strange Relations"
9 "Secrets of the Soul"
10 "In the Kingdom of the Blind"
11 "A Tragedy of Telepaths"
12 "Phoenix Rising"
13 "The Ragged Edge"
14 "Meditations on the Abyss"
15 "Darkness Ascending"
16 "And All My Dreams, Torn Asunder"
17 "Movements of Fire and Shadow"
18 "The Fall of Centauri Prime"
19 "Wheel of Fire"
20 "Objects in Motion"
21 "Objects at Rest"
22 "Sleeping in Light"


Alternate Season 5 (Telepath arc replaced by standalone episodes)

1 "Intersections in Real Time"
2 "Between the Darkness and the Light"
3 Additional Earth civil war episode
4 "Endgame"
5 "Rising Star"
6 "No Compromises"
7 "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari"
8 "The Paragon of Animals"
9 "A View from the Gallery"
10 "Learning Curve"
11 "Day of the Dead"
12 "The Ragged Edge"
13 "The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father"
14 "Meditations on the Abyss"
15 "Darkness Ascending"
16 "And All My Dreams, Torn Asunder"
17 "Movements of Fire and Shadow"
18 "The Fall of Centauri Prime"
19 "Wheel of Fire"
20 "Objects in Motion"
21 "Objects at Rest"
22 "Sleeping in Light"

 

[Mr Light]

^^ You WANT Thirdspace to be in there? Aside from the most beautiful space battle in the history of the show, I didn't really like it. The aliens were cool but didn't really do anything, alas.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

^^ You WANT Thirdspace to be in there? Aside from the most beautiful space battle in the history of the show, I didn't really like it. The aliens were cool but didn't really do anything, alas.

It's not so much a matter of want, but a matter of what makes sense. I don't want the episode "Learning Curve" to exist either, yet I've included it in my alternate Season 5 (and "Thirdspace" is probably better than that one).

 

[chrisspringob]

When I was first watching Season 4 back in 1997, between Lyta's comment in "Face of the Enemy" about "some day there's going to be a war between telepaths and normals" and Delenn's closing narration at the end of "Rising Star", in which she mentions the upcoming Telepath War.......I felt certain that Season 5 was going to feature the promised conflict between telepaths and normals. But it seems that JMS was saving that for a possible B5 feature film (which looked like a real possibility at the time).....or else he wanted to cover it via flashbacks in Crusade.

In retrospect, since there was no B5 feature film, and Crusade was cancelled after a half season, I wonder how it would have worked if Season 5 had featured the Telepath War rather than the Byron arc. Just rework the timeline so that the conflict happens immediately after "Rising Star". It could be precipitated by a post-Clark purge of various elements in the government.

 

[Christopher]

^JMS's determination to save the Telepath War (or was it the Psi War?) for a later project led to the most annoying decision in the Del Rey novels; the Bester trilogy skipped right over the war, going from around the series timeframe in book 2 to well after the war in book 3. It made the story feel incomplete. Now that there's presumably not going to be any more B5 on TV or film, I kind of wish JMS would get the author of the Bester trilogy to go back and do a book about the Telepath War, sort of a book 2 1/2 of the trilogy.

 

[Jan]

^JMS's determination to save the Telepath War (or was it the Psi War?) for a later project led to the most annoying decision in the Del Rey novels; the Bester trilogy skipped right over the war, going from around the series timeframe in book 2 to well after the war in book 3. It made the story feel incomplete. Now that there's presumably not going to be any more B5 on TV or film, I kind of wish JMS would get the author of the Bester trilogy to go back and do a book about the Telepath War, sort of a book 2 1/2 of the trilogy.

Whether there's a movie or not pretty much depends on when and if JMS comes up with a story he burns to tell in the B5 universe. When and if that happens, if WB isn't interested, JMS is free to shop it to other studios because he owns the movie rights to B5.

As for JMS getting J. Gregory Keyes to write another book covering the 'missing years' from the Bester trilogy, the bottom line is that he can't. Like it or not, there's simply no publisher interested in publishing B5 books at this time. And it would take a major publisher willing to pay WB whatever their license fee is and willing to pay the author. Publishers these days are a lot like studios, they only want to produce sure things and a substantial investment in a book about a show that's been off the air for over ten years is pretty unlikely.

Jan

 

[Christopher]

^Which is why I expressed it as a wish rather than a realistic expectation.

 

[chrisspringob]

Here's what I would have done if I could excise the Byron arc and replace it with the Telepath War:

Season 4

4X1 Hour of the Wolf
Whatever Happened?
Summoning
Falling Towards Apotheosis
Long Night
Into the Fire Part One
Into the Fire Part Two
Epiphanies
Illusion of Truth
Atonement
4x11 Racing Mars
Lines of Communication
Conflicts of Interest
In Valen’s Name (Babylon 4 & Valen)
Rumors Bargains Lies
Minbari Civil War Battle
Moments of Transition
No Surrender No Retreat
Additional Earth Civil War episode
Exercise of Vital Powers
Face of the Enemy
4x22 Intersections in Real Time

Season 5

5x1 Between Darkness & Light 1
Between Darkness & Light 2
Endgame 1
Endgame 2
Rising Star
The Deconstruction of Falling Stars
No Compromises
The Day of the Dead
Telepath War 1
Telepath War 2
5x11 Telepath War 3
Telepath War 4
Telepath War 5
Ragged Edge
Meditations on the Abyss
Darkness Ascending
All My Dreams Torn Asunder
Movements of Fire and Shadow
Fall of Centauri Prime
Wheel of Fire / Objects in Motion (a lot of the Lyta stuff would be cut / changed around if the Telepath War has already happened)
Objects at Rest
5x22 Sleeping in Light


Of course, a lot of subplots would have to have been changed around if the Telepath War to take place within the 5 year arc of the series, rather than several years later. But I think this would have been an interesting way to go. As you can see, the Earth Civil War arc is the main thing that I think should be stretched out a bit if one is allowed to extend it into Season 5.

Also, going against the grain of popular opinion here, I really love "Deconstruction", so I would want to keep it, even if it doesn't work quite as well if it isn't a season finale. And I would keep Garibaldi on Mars for a while after "Rising Star", into at least the early part of the Telepath War.

(Incidentally, early JMS notes on Season 5 apparently had Garibaldi staying on Mars for much of the season, but still being a featured character on the show. I'm wondering if the change was made for budget reasons. Too expensive to spread your cast around to too many different settings, and have them interact with too many guest stars.)

 

[Mr Light]

So I woke up in the middle of the night and started playing with an episode list again. I'm halfway thru S2 on my rewatch, and I've found "Crystalis" to not be as amazing as "Coming of Shadows" was so I started thinking CoS is such a better first season finale. This time I posit a world where the clunker episodes from all seasons get cut out. This puts the most momentous events as season finales; 1-Coming of Shadows, 2-Severed Dreams, 3-Into the Fire, 4-Endgame.

Season One:
1Midnight on the Firing Line
2Soul Hunter / Born to the Purple (Londo & Adira)
3Infection
4The Parliament of Dreams
5Mind War
6And The Sky Full Of Stars
7Deathwalker
8By Any Means Necessary
9Signs and Portents
10Eyes / Legacies
11A Voice in the Wilderness part 1
12A Voice in the Wilderness part 2
13Babylon Squared
14The Quality of Mercy
15Chrysalis
16Points of Departure
17Revelations
18The Geometry of Shadows
19A Spider in the Web
20Soul Mates
21 A Distant Star / The Long Dark *the Explorer ship finds the derelict and gets attacked by the Warrior
22The Coming of Shadows

Season Two:
1All Alone in the Night
2A Race Through Dark Places
3GROPOS
4Acts of Sacrifice
5Hunter, Prey
6There All the Honor Lies
7And Now For a Word
8In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum
9Confessions and Lamentations
10Divided Loyalties
11The Long, Twilight Struggle
12Comes the Inquisitor
13The Fall of Night
14Matters of Honor
15Convictions
16A Day in the Strife
17Passing Through Gethsemane
18Voices of Authority
19Dust to Dust
20Messages from Earth
21Point of No Return
22Severed Dreams

Season Three:
1Ceremonies of Light and Dark
2Sic Transit Vir
3A Late Delivery from Avalon
4Ship of Tears
5Interludes and Examinations
6War Without End, Part One
7War Without End, Part Two
8Walkabout
9Grey 17 Is Missing
10And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place
11Shadow Dancing
12Z'ha'dum
13The Hour of the Wolf
14NEW SHADOW WAR EPISODE
15NEW SHADOW WAR EPISODE
16NEW SHADOW WAR EPISODE
17Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?
18The Summoning
19Falling Toward Apotheosis
20The Long Night
21INTO THE FIRE PART ONE
22Into the Fire PART TWO

Season Four:
1Epiphanies
2THIRDSPACE PART ONE
3THIRDSPACE PART TWO
4IN VALEN'S NAME (B4 & Valen Flashbacks)
5Atonement / IN THE BEGINNING PART ONE
6Atonement / IN THE BEGINNING PART TWO
7Racing Mars
8Lines of Communication
9Conflicts of Interest
10Rumors, Bargains and Lies
11NEW MINBARI CIVIL WAR EPISODE
12Moments of Transition
13No Surrender, No Retreat
14The Exercise of Vital Powers
15NEW EARTH WAR EPISODE
16NEW EARTH WAR EPISODE
17The Face of the Enemy
18Intersections in Real Time
19DARK & LIGHT PART ONE
20Between the Darkness and the Light PART TWO
21ENDGAME PART ONE
22Endgame PART TWO

Season Five:
1Rising Star
2The Deconstruction of Falling Stars
3No Compromises
4The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari
5GUT REACTIONS (Peter David cut episode)
6Strange Relations
7Day of the Dead
8In the Kingdom of the Blind
9Phoenix Rising
10The Ragged Edge
11Meditations on the Abyss
12Darkness Ascending
13And All My Dreams, Torn Asunder
14 NEW CENTAURI WAR EPISODE
15Movements of Fire and Shadow
16The Fall of Centauri Prime
17Objects in Motion
18Objects at Rest
19Wheel of Fire
20A CALL TO ARMS PART ONE
21A CALL TO ARMS PART TWO
22Sleeping in Light

CUT EPISODES:
The War Prayer, Believers, Survivors, TKO, Grail, Knives
Exogenesis, The Illusion of Truth, The Paragon of Animals
View from the Gallery, Learning Curve, Secrets of the Soul,
A Tragedy of Telepaths, The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father

 

[Christopher]

Also, going against the grain of popular opinion here, I really love "Deconstruction", so I would want to keep it, even if it doesn't work quite as well if it isn't a season finale.

I don't think anyone's saying they personally disliked "Deconstruction of Falling Stars," just that the episode wasn't conceived until after the show was belatedly picked up for a fifth season and JMS needed to replace "Sleeping in Light" as the finale of the compressed fourth season. The question is what would've happened if the compression had never occurred and the last two seasons had gone as originally planned. In that hypothetical scenario, "Deconstruction" simply wouldn't have existed. That's not a comment on its quality.

 

[Mr Light]

Yeah, I don't mind "Deconstruction". It's not a four star episode or anything but it's a nice look at the future with some cool scenes. I particularly like the final scene with the Future Human. The only part I found a little wonky was the B5 characters being resurrected as holograms by the Orwellians who then somehow manage to override their systems and start a nuclear war. I thought that was a bit much.

 

[JoeD80]

I think we can all agree that the endings of the Shadow War and Earth War were a little rushed, and that the Byron episodes took a little long. I only have THREE Byron episodes here!!!

I don't agree on any of those points. The Shadow War wasn't going to last any longer than it did. From as early as season *two* Joe said having the Shadow War go past season four would be boring and he wanted the show to be about more than that (and I like where it ended). The civil war was to last maybe four or five more episodes (yeah would have been cool with a cliffhanger, but I enjoyed the ending to it too). And I'm one of those who liked the Byron episodes, especially the whole Byron/Bester standoff.

I thought it was only his recently jotted down S5 notes or something.

Nope, they were his notes written *YEARS* earlier. If they were notes he had just written, why would he care so much if he lost them? The main reason he was so mad about losing his notes was because they were the notes that had been written at the beginning, with all the information that connected everything together, including not only plot points, but *dialogue* as well, and it was stuff that had been written so long ago he didn't have it in his head any more. The only thing he really could piece together in his head was the Byron story, but then that was supposed to connect to Ivanova and then Claudia left...so he was creating a new character and new episodes on the fly and trying to rely on Byron even though Ivanova was gone. The only episode Joe seems entirely unhappy with in season 5 is Learning Curve, and he says that from "In the Kingdom of the Blind" to the end of the season felt like Babylon 5 again.

most annoying decision in the Del Rey novels; the Bester trilogy skipped right over the war, going from around the series timeframe in book 2 to well after the war in book 3.

I'm happy for that.. I like how the book starts after the war and the big events have occurred, and we only get small glimpses here and there as it applies to his life on-the-run. Remembering the explosion. Remembering sacrificing 200 of his own telepaths. Remembering Lyta's death. And Garibaldi's chase...beautiful IMO. For the trilogy, it works. Unfortunate that we didn't get a movie about the specific events, but I don't think it makes the story incomplete.

 

[Candlelight]

There's "In Valen's Name", a comic book which was supposed to be an episode, where the crew discovers the ancient ruins of Babylon 4 being raided by aliens, and we get some Valen and Zathras during the First Shadow War flashbacks.

Babylon 4 wasn't being raided by aliens - they were a Tak'Cha party staying with the station to guard it.

Can't remember who tripped the distress call though.

Might have to have a crack at this season four/five thing...

 

[Candlelight]

OK, here's my attempt:

Season 4

401 The Hour of the Wolf
402 What Ever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?
403 The Summoning
404 Falling Towards Apotheosis
405 ADDITIONAL SHADOW EPISODE
406 The Long Night
407 ADDITIONAL SHADOW EPISODE
408 Into the Fire
409 Epiphanies
410 The Illusion of Truth
411 Atonement
412 In The Beginning
413 Racing Mars
414 In Valen’s Name
415 Lines of Communication
416 Thirdspace
417 Conflicts of Interest
418 Rumors, Bargains and Lies
419 Moments of Transition
420 No Surrender, No Retreat
421 The Exercise of Vital Powers
422 The Face of the Enemy

Season 5

501 No Compromises (RESCUE ATTEMPT FOR SHERIDAN, GARIBALDI TORTURED)
502 Intersections in Real Time
503 RESCUE SHERIDAN EPISODE
504 Between the Darkness and the Light
505 SEPARATE BATTLE FOR MARS EPISODE
506 Endgame (BATTLE FOR EARTH)
507 Rising Star
508 LEGEND OF THE RANGERS (ALL SHITE REMOVED)
509 The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father (PSI CORP DISSOLVED, BESTER ON THE RUN)
510 The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari
511 A View from the Gallery
512 Day of the Dead
513 In the Kingdom of the Blind (START OF TELEPATH WAR, BESTER CAPTURED)
514 A Tragedy of Telepaths (BESTER’S STORY)
515 Meditations on the Abyss (BESTER’S TRIAL ON B5, CENTAURI ATTACKS BEGIN)
516 The Ragged Edge (BESTER’S TRIAL + SENTENCING)
517 Darkness Ascending (TELEPATH/WHITE STAR BATTLE AT THE STATION, BESTER DIES)
518 And All My Dreams, Torn Asunder (TELEPATH WAR ENDS, CENTAURI WAR STARTS)
519 Movements of Fire and Shadow
520 The Fall of Centauri Prime
521 The Wheel of Fire (BIG GOODBYE EPISODE)
522 Sleeping in Light