How would you feel if the first six episodes of B5 Season 4 was focused on the resolution of the Earth civil war and the last episodes of the season was focused on the resolution of the Shadow War?
Babylon 5: Season 4 arcs in reverse
- Thread starter Joe Washington
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I've always felt that the Earth War should have been resolved before the Shadow War. The climax of the story happens with 1.75 seasons still to go?
What should have happened... after "Z'ha'dum" the Shadow War takes a pause, as it did in "The Hour of the Wolf". Then they do the entire Earth Civil War storyline, with the Shadows still off licking their wounds and the Vorlons doing nothing.
THEN, having dealt with their home issues, truly uniting all the younger races together in an alliance, does the final confrontation with the Shadows and Vorlons happen.
This way, when Sheridan claims to speak for his generation, he's not representing the measly little League of Non Alligned Worlds, two thirds of the Minbari, and a handful of humans and Narn... but all of them.
What should have happened... after "Z'ha'dum" the Shadow War takes a pause, as it did in "The Hour of the Wolf". Then they do the entire Earth Civil War storyline, with the Shadows still off licking their wounds and the Vorlons doing nothing.
THEN, having dealt with their home issues, truly uniting all the younger races together in an alliance, does the final confrontation with the Shadows and Vorlons happen.
This way, when Sheridan claims to speak for his generation, he's not representing the measly little League of Non Alligned Worlds, two thirds of the Minbari, and a handful of humans and Narn... but all of them.
I think there are quite a few problems with that idea. First and foremost, they Shadows may have paused but they were far from gone and their support of Clark is what made him damn near unassailable at that point. It wasn't until after they'd abandoned him that he began to loose his grip on power.
Secondly, the final battle of the Shadow War wasn't about getting the most powerful fleet together, it was about getting as many races together to witness the Shadows and the Vorlons for what they were. Spending half a season getting Earth back on side (even if that'd been remotely feasible) so that they'd join in the big fight, only to have 'Into the Fire' end as it did would have felt like even more of an anti climax than it already did. It's no accident that the Earth civil war, the one with knock-down, drag-out battles, inspiring speeches and a heroic and exciting climax came at the end of the season, not midway through.
As JMS has repeatedly stated, the Vorlon/Shadow conflict was a war of ideology and could only have been resolved on those terms. There's no way ANY fleet, no matter how big, could have had even a slight chance of defeating the Shadows or the Vorlons on their own, much less both at the same time!
Secondly, the final battle of the Shadow War wasn't about getting the most powerful fleet together, it was about getting as many races together to witness the Shadows and the Vorlons for what they were. Spending half a season getting Earth back on side (even if that'd been remotely feasible) so that they'd join in the big fight, only to have 'Into the Fire' end as it did would have felt like even more of an anti climax than it already did. It's no accident that the Earth civil war, the one with knock-down, drag-out battles, inspiring speeches and a heroic and exciting climax came at the end of the season, not midway through.
As JMS has repeatedly stated, the Vorlon/Shadow conflict was a war of ideology and could only have been resolved on those terms. There's no way ANY fleet, no matter how big, could have had even a slight chance of defeating the Shadows or the Vorlons on their own, much less both at the same time!
It's not about how big the fleet is, but the fact that he was supposed to be representing this generation of all the races, when in fact he didn't fully represent ANY of the major races. He was leading the dregs of the galaxy 
I guess JMS and I just have different opinions on how a story should be told. I believe the climax of the story should take place as close to the end of the story as possible. But he was always more interested in telling the buildup and aftermath of a war, rather the war itself.
I guess JMS and I just have different opinions on how a story should be told. I believe the climax of the story should take place as close to the end of the story as possible. But he was always more interested in telling the buildup and aftermath of a war, rather the war itself.
^Two thirds of the Minbari fleet (second only in tech to the First Ones), the Narn, Brakiri, Drazi, Vree and about two dozen other races hardly constitutes "the dregs of the galaxy." Also the lack of an official presence from the Earth Alliance doesn't exactly mean humans were under-represented; for one thing at that point the Anla'Shok was still mostly made up of humans and the White Star fleet was the vanguard of the alliance. Indeed it's best to remember that in B5, humans are not and never were "top dogs" and their absence was hardly significant on a galactic scale. Hell, they weren't even second or third-to-top dogs. Ambitious, expansionist little social climbers sure, but they were hardly the galaxy's finest.
Finally, at what point does ANYONE say "Sheridan represented his generation"? He was many things; the defacto diplomatic leader and military commander of the allied forces, centred at Babylon 5, the only one with direct experience with both the Vorlons and Shadows and the only one all the other races would even consider listening too. Indeed, I rather think having the full force of the EA behind him would actually decrease the likelihood that any of the other races trusting him. But representing his generation? No. He was no John Lennon.
Finally, at what point does ANYONE say "Sheridan represented his generation"? He was many things; the defacto diplomatic leader and military commander of the allied forces, centred at Babylon 5, the only one with direct experience with both the Vorlons and Shadows and the only one all the other races would even consider listening too. Indeed, I rather think having the full force of the EA behind him would actually decrease the likelihood that any of the other races trusting him. But representing his generation? No. He was no John Lennon.
The climax of the story wasn't the end of the Shadow War; both it and the Earth civil war were of equal importance. It would have been embarassing if they'd handled Earth first, which only involved one planet, while the Shadows and Vorlons kept running around anhiliating planets wholesale, wouldn't it?
Reverend is correct--Sheridan never claimed to be any kind of spokesman for his generation. The only character that I recall claimed to speak for anyone was Delenn when she spoke for the Religious Caste at the Starfire wheel.
Jan
Reverend is correct--Sheridan never claimed to be any kind of spokesman for his generation. The only character that I recall claimed to speak for anyone was Delenn when she spoke for the Religious Caste at the Starfire wheel.
Jan
Resolving the Earth civil war could be seen as one step towards gathering enough forces to fight aganist the Shadows.
^ Not to mention that doing so ties in somewhat with the Shadows M.O. -- get the various races involved in "personal" struggles (border wars, civil wars, etc.), then see who the survivors are this time around.
Cheers,
-CM-
Cheers,
-CM-
One question I have in reading this is how would you incorporate Garabaldi's Arc into this reverse order. One of the things I really loved about Season 4 was the fact that Garabaldi played a major role in the Earth Civil War arc and it took all season to get to Face of the Enemy and finding out what happened to him. In the reverse order, would we just find out sooner and then go into the Shadow war? I'm not sure that would work dramatically as the way it was done overall.
But the thing with Psi Corps was that it was intermingled with the Earth Civil War story wasn't it?
Thinking about it some more, the only good thing about finding out about Garabaldi early was it would give us some repurcussions for Sheridan and Garabaldi afterward maybe. One thing I had a complaint regarding Season 4 and that storyline was there wasn't any sense of aftermath between the two given the bad blood that was flown before. I kind of wish there has been something.
^ I think it's fair to say that there wasn't a lot of time for Garibaldi and Sheridan to have a heart to heart, hug, cry and burn an effigy of Bester together. Lyta verified his story and his part in rescuing Sheridan and the liberation of Mars probably went a long way to re-confirming his reliability. It may have taken Sheridan some time and effort to swallow any involuntary emotional resentment, but in all seriousness I doubt they're the sort to talk about it directly.
Actually, if you look at Garibaldi's actions throughout the first (mostly sober) half of season 5, it's clear this is a man trying to make amends. He puts his life with Lise on hold (again!) to go back to B5 and lend the Alliance his support. For Sheridan's part, it's not exactly the first time someone he knew turned out to be brainwashed. Not even the second time, so I'm sure he dealt with it pretty fast.
I rather think it'd undermine the drama and peril of the situation. The whole point of the Earth Civil War storyline was to have the station cut off from Earth and any support. They were out there on their own and were forced to stitch together an alliance of disparate and in some cases mutually belligerent races. That wouldn't have happened after EF rolled back into town.
Although Earth essentially sat the war out, humans were still at the centre of the Shadow War. They may not have made up the bulk of the military forces, but they were *central* to the logistical support, intelligence and command infrastructure. On top of that, humans were the ones that brokered the alliance in the first place. So what if Geneva had nothing to do with it? Also don't forget that there are plenty of humans that don't actually live on Earth, or even in the Sol System. There's dozen a colonies and non-military outposts scattered around the place that it seems Clark's regime just abandoned. Remember we later see Garibaldi reunite a father and daughter who where separated when a scavenger fleet took advantage of the chaos of the war. I'm sure there were plenty of humans right in the thick of things that we never heard anything about. Indeed we never did hear on the show why the Shadows hit Arisia III (an Earth mining colony) so early on, way before they started attacking openly. I'm sure they did a lot more we never heard about.
In fact, if I had any criticism of the 4th season it'd be that you never got a real sense of the scale and scope of the conflict.
What would Earthforce have to do with heralding a "new age of life in the galaxy"? If any human military force could even remotely answer that claim it's the Rangers, not Earthforce.
Actually, if you look at Garibaldi's actions throughout the first (mostly sober) half of season 5, it's clear this is a man trying to make amends. He puts his life with Lise on hold (again!) to go back to B5 and lend the Alliance his support. For Sheridan's part, it's not exactly the first time someone he knew turned out to be brainwashed. Not even the second time, so I'm sure he dealt with it pretty fast.
I rather think it'd undermine the drama and peril of the situation. The whole point of the Earth Civil War storyline was to have the station cut off from Earth and any support. They were out there on their own and were forced to stitch together an alliance of disparate and in some cases mutually belligerent races. That wouldn't have happened after EF rolled back into town.
Although Earth essentially sat the war out, humans were still at the centre of the Shadow War. They may not have made up the bulk of the military forces, but they were *central* to the logistical support, intelligence and command infrastructure. On top of that, humans were the ones that brokered the alliance in the first place. So what if Geneva had nothing to do with it? Also don't forget that there are plenty of humans that don't actually live on Earth, or even in the Sol System. There's dozen a colonies and non-military outposts scattered around the place that it seems Clark's regime just abandoned. Remember we later see Garibaldi reunite a father and daughter who where separated when a scavenger fleet took advantage of the chaos of the war. I'm sure there were plenty of humans right in the thick of things that we never heard anything about. Indeed we never did hear on the show why the Shadows hit Arisia III (an Earth mining colony) so early on, way before they started attacking openly. I'm sure they did a lot more we never heard about.
In fact, if I had any criticism of the 4th season it'd be that you never got a real sense of the scale and scope of the conflict.
What would Earthforce have to do with heralding a "new age of life in the galaxy"? If any human military force could even remotely answer that claim it's the Rangers, not Earthforce.
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The shadows are not the main part of the story; they're the catalyst (and the Vorlons) for what takes place that affects the races more directly. (vorlons creating telepaths and shadows controlling that through psi corps; the rise and fall of centauri prime). Joe said as early as season two that he thought the show would be boring if the shadow war lasted past season four. The issue I see with reversing the civil war with the shadow war is that Clark was supported by the psi corps was supported by the shadows. If Sheridan had gone up against that first, the odds would have been tilted against him. Without the shadows to help, the EA had no idea how to properly operate their shadow upgraded ships to be effective.
Would it better if Season 4 had covered the Shadow War and Season 5 had covered the Earth civil war and the aftermath of the Shadow War?
I already shared this with Joe (Washington) privately, but wanted to share it here as well.
As much as I enjoyed B5's overall story, one of the major issues that the series had, IMO, is that, although it was supposed to be one single narrative that had many different layers to it, it tended to sort of 'compartmentalize' some of said layers and focus on them at the exclusion of everything else rather than integrating each new narrative layer with the layer that preceded it.
As much as I enjoyed B5's overall story, one of the major issues that the series had, IMO, is that, although it was supposed to be one single narrative that had many different layers to it, it tended to sort of 'compartmentalize' some of said layers and focus on them at the exclusion of everything else rather than integrating each new narrative layer with the layer that preceded it.
Part of the idea of B5 was to make the episodes themselves be able to stand separately as stories in addition to the overall arc, which I think would be harder to do if all the episodes were attempting to track every thread running through the show. Joe was trying to avoid the situation he saw with Twin Peaks where layers did just keep getting added and added on to the point that if you missed an episode you'd be entirely lost.
^ The problem there is that the idea of B5 being a 'novel for television' really isn't compatible with the traditional concept of 'stand-alone storytelling'. You do need each individual episode to tell a 'closed' story in and of itself, but, at the same time, each of those 'closed stories' needs to fit within the overall 'narrative arc'. Maintaining this delicate balance was something that the first season of B5 actually did quite well, but once more and more complexities started being added to the over-arching narrative of the series, things started to get a bit dicey and the task of balancing each new 'mini-arc' with the overall story of the series became more and more difficult to execute, ultimately lessening the series' ability to actually function as a 'novel for television' the way JMS originally intended it to.
I have plans to eventually try and 're-imagine' Babylon 5 as a prequel to the 're-imagining' of Crusade that I'm currently working on, and one of my primary goals if/when I get to that point is to make a conscious effort to structure the series (B5) so that the Shadow War is really the 'main' arc, with the 'secondary' arcs of the Narn-Centauri War and the Earth Civil War playing out alongside it, creating a scenario where the ultimate resolution of the Shadow War arc is also a resolution of lingering plot points/character threads/storyline elements from those two arcs as well.
I have plans to eventually try and 're-imagine' Babylon 5 as a prequel to the 're-imagining' of Crusade that I'm currently working on, and one of my primary goals if/when I get to that point is to make a conscious effort to structure the series (B5) so that the Shadow War is really the 'main' arc, with the 'secondary' arcs of the Narn-Centauri War and the Earth Civil War playing out alongside it, creating a scenario where the ultimate resolution of the Shadow War arc is also a resolution of lingering plot points/character threads/storyline elements from those two arcs as well.
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