Babylon 5 - How Bad was Season 5? Why?
- Thread starter Mal
- Start date
I'm not so sure I agree about your source of Sheridan's reactions here. Lyta didn't really lie to him so much as told him in a roundabout way, so her "lieing" wouldn't seem to me to be the cause for his reproachful response. I'm going to have to go back and rewatch that scene, but I remember him saying that he might have even agreed with her reasons for blowing the place up. Even though it's been awhile since I saw that episode, I'm left thinking his anger was derived more from the fact she'd do it without saying anything to him first. He was extremely angry with her, and imho had every right to be.
It's not an outright lie, they go through a hypothetical "If I'd..." convesation. Sheriden gives Lyta ample chances to come clean and tell him what she did, but Lyta can't bring herself to trust Sheriden to understand what she did whether or not he accepts it. It struck me like a version of Kirk's talk with Scotty about who through the first punch, but instead of admitting it imagine Kirk's reaction if Scotty had the talk as a "If I had thrown the punch" Kirk would never trust Scotty again, just as Sheriden doesn't trust Lyta. It's not what she did that upsets him so much, as she won't come clean about it. She has no acceptence of reponsibility for her actions. Like Sheriden against Clark, she did the right thing in the wrong way, but unlike him, she won't take the heat for her actions.
I understand the distinction, but I still disagree about the motivation. Lyta's refusal to "come clean" undoubtedly affects his trust, but look at what she did. She decided to blow the place up, when it wasn't her decision to make. That's frightening. She decided to remove the possibility of appropriating any potential tech from Z'ha'dum, when it was Sheridan's decision to go there in the first place. He was in command and her end run subverted that. She isn't in the "chain of command" that's true, but even so.... how can someone in leadership completely trust people under them when the possibility exists that they won't respect that and therefore make the decisions on their own?
I think were making the same point in different ways. She thinks she sees the bigger picture (and maybe she does haviong all that Vorlon knowledge) but it isn't her job to decide what's best for every one. That was something the Shadows and Vorlons had to learn and so does Lyta. It makes a great counterpoint to the Arguement Delenn and Neroon had when Delenn was becoming head of the Rangers. He was convinced Delenn was out of control and power-mad as is Sheriden towards Lyta. A religious zealot propelled by prophecy into a position of political and militay power, always a bad idea. Sheriden is no less convinced that Lyta is going off the rails with her rapidly growing Telepath powers and Lyta's actions don't give him much reason to think he's wrong.
Lyta wasn't under Sheridan's command but by her presence on the White Star she'd effectively given him authority over her. Sheridan raked her over the coals for having taken the decision about Z'ha'dum away from him without consultation. Her reasons were fairly petty, too, mainly just wanting to hurt Bester, not from any concern over the dangers of what Shadow Tech might have been down there. By the same token, she comments that she might have some leftover programming by the Vorlons that she doesn't know about so it could be that programming that caused her to rationalize what she wanted to do.
Jan
Another interesting observation, paralleling this conflict with the one between Delenn and Neroon. I think your last sentence, about Lyta's actions giving Sheridan little rooom to believe differently than he does is also accurate.
I suspect that comment about "some leftover programming by the Vorlons that she doesn't know about" underscores the discomfort others feel with Lyta, after the Vorlon assault on anyone and everyone. It's indicative of why she was shut out more and more, right or wrong.
Lyta tries to explain that her not telling Sheriden because Bester was present. I suspect Sheriden feels that explanation doesn't hold much water. Given Sheriden's experience, I don't think he feels Bester would be a match for Lyta any more at that point and she's using Bester's presence as an excuse for not talking to him. Certainly, Sheriden has no qualms about sticking it to Bester when he has the chance, so Lyta's excuse really only comes off as self serving rather than believable. Folks were disturbed by Lyta ever since she came back from across the Vorlon border. Like Garibaldi asked "Is any one else creeped out by this?"
Lyta did mention that on Z'ha'dum there's technology that no-one should have, for whatever reason.
Let's not forget that there's another one who was "touched by Vorlons", as he was so eager to point out. Both Sheridan and Lyta carried Kosh, and had a special bond with him. But Lyta has been given special powers, and John hasn't. I've always suspected that there's some kind of siblings competition at work.
Let's not forget that there's another one who was "touched by Vorlons", as he was so eager to point out. Both Sheridan and Lyta carried Kosh, and had a special bond with him. But Lyta has been given special powers, and John hasn't. I've always suspected that there's some kind of siblings competition at work.
In the middle of watching Season 5 now, after having only just finished the series for the first time ever.
S5 just feels flat to me. The opening episode of the season is downright terrible. Hey, I like the actor playing Delenn but seeing that shocked expression for the 50th time is getting a bit old.
The second ep wasn't much better. As things go on, Byron is just irritating me - I just got to the part where his past comes into focus, and it was not only entirely predictable but cliched and unbelievable. Also, by now i'm thoroughly sick of Bester and I think it's long past time he died.
I'm still slowly working my way through it but based on the comments I read here i'm going to shortly wish I hadn't.
S5 just feels flat to me. The opening episode of the season is downright terrible. Hey, I like the actor playing Delenn but seeing that shocked expression for the 50th time is getting a bit old.
The second ep wasn't much better. As things go on, Byron is just irritating me - I just got to the part where his past comes into focus, and it was not only entirely predictable but cliched and unbelievable. Also, by now i'm thoroughly sick of Bester and I think it's long past time he died.
I'm still slowly working my way through it but based on the comments I read here i'm going to shortly wish I hadn't.
That is an interesting point, how does each see being touched by the Vorlons. Lyta seems to take it like a religious experience, in that she acts as though she's been made superior by the experience. Sheriden takes it as someone who has seen through the circus con man. He knows the Vorlons are not superior in any moral sense, only in having the power to blast lesser races out of existence for daring to question them.
Think back on G'Kar's analogy about the and when talking to Catherine Sakai. The younger races have become little more than ant farms for the Vorlons and Shadows to play with. Lyta looks on the Vorlons like gods until she is disillusioned in season five, then all they've done has been a curse. Sheriden has a far more mature response to the Vorlons as I see it.
Lyta certainly knew a lot more about the Vorlons and their technology and culture, having been on their homeworld, than Sheridan could ever hope to, and probably also about the Shadow technology, as she indicated she knew what was down there on Z'ha'dum. She also was closer to Kosh.
Kosh died as a result of granting Sheridan's request, because Sheridan didn't understand what he was asking. And it was Lyta who suffered the consequences at the hands of his successor Ulkesh, despite she was only following Kosh's orders.
She also witnessed Sheridan using telepaths as weapons to battle the Shadow-tech enhanced Earth cruisers, just like the Vorlons.
Not the best premise for a trusting relationship.
Kosh died as a result of granting Sheridan's request, because Sheridan didn't understand what he was asking. And it was Lyta who suffered the consequences at the hands of his successor Ulkesh, despite she was only following Kosh's orders.
She also witnessed Sheridan using telepaths as weapons to battle the Shadow-tech enhanced Earth cruisers, just like the Vorlons.
Not the best premise for a trusting relationship.
I doubt it was a "sibling rivalry" thing, but that's still an original premise. Kudos for thinking of it, especially given what you've posted right before this. All of those things the Sheridan is connected to. In any case, I'm betting that Lyta is succumbing to the sense of superiority complex the Vorlons seemed to have so much trouble with. Now, whether this incident at Z'ha'dum occurs before the events in "Thirdspace" I cannot say. Saying, I would know. Do not know, so cannot say. 
One small correction. The teeps Sheridan used didn't battle the Shadow-enhanced EF ships. They were used strictly against the conventional ships. That was in 'Between the Darkness and the Light" when Ivanova headed up that battle. The teeps as weapons were used in "Endgame" at Mars
One small correction. The teeps Sheridan used didn't battle the Shadow-enhanced EF ships. They were used strictly against the conventional ships. That was in 'Between the Darkness and the Light" when Ivanova headed up that battle. The teeps as weapons were used in "Endgame" at Mars
Lyta had more direct experience of the Vorlons, but I don't know that it gave her greater understanding of them. Lyta really was a follower, as was mentioned above. She went from Psycorp to the Vorlons with the whole x is mother, x is father routine. When she lost that, she lashed out at everyone.
Sheriden knew what he was asking Kosh, "Put your encounter suited butts on the line." He knew what the Vorlons were asking and he knew what the Vorlons weren't giving. B5 and the races in Sheriden's alliance were being used as proxies while the Vorlons sat back and gave orders. Between Sheriden and Lyta, he learned to say no and to say he didn't like Kosh's attitude, which by Kosh's admission seemed to be what he at least wanted.
Psssst..... btw, it's "Psi Corps", "Psi Cop" etc.
Is pronounced with different sound, listen, psi-corp, psi-corp, psi-corp... see?
Fortunately, am used to being beast of burden to other peoples needs.
I don't think one can really understand a people without having experienced their culture and having been to their homeworld. G'kar also knew that, he said as much about the Centauri and learning more about other races by visiting their homeworld was one the reasons why he left B5. Sheridan only knew the basics of their philosophy, and that they had lost their way. He knew nothing about their culture, or their POV about the history of the conflict. Once the Shadow war was over, he started using telepaths as weapons, started manipulating the alliance members by instilling fear of "invisible enemies", started to act like he could bend the station rules as he pleases (the conflict about Bester he had with Lochley). In other words, he started down the Vorlon path himself. Not a sign of a deeper understanding in my book.
Yes, Lyta was a follower of Kosh, but that doesn't mean she didn't understand the Vorlons. She had seen what the Vorlons did breeding telepaths, it wasn't knowledge she acquired only in season 5. She just didn't communicate it before. Remember how she said she wasn't allowed to talk about what she had seen, and that no-one would believe her anyway when she returned to B5? She knew what the Vorlons were like. Her bond with Kosh was something special. Kosh wasn't like the other Vorlons. She admired Kosh in particular, not the Vorlons in general.
And Sheridan did not know what he was asking of Kosh, that Kosh would die the same night. He assumed that Kosh was refusing to help him on Z'ha'dum, when Kosh said that he won't be there.
Yes, Lyta was a follower of Kosh, but that doesn't mean she didn't understand the Vorlons. She had seen what the Vorlons did breeding telepaths, it wasn't knowledge she acquired only in season 5. She just didn't communicate it before. Remember how she said she wasn't allowed to talk about what she had seen, and that no-one would believe her anyway when she returned to B5? She knew what the Vorlons were like. Her bond with Kosh was something special. Kosh wasn't like the other Vorlons. She admired Kosh in particular, not the Vorlons in general.
And Sheridan did not know what he was asking of Kosh, that Kosh would die the same night. He assumed that Kosh was refusing to help him on Z'ha'dum, when Kosh said that he won't be there.
Speaking of being 'touched by the Vorlons', did anybody else equate black-eyed Lyta with possibly also being 'touched by the Shadows'? As I recall, the first time we saw that was when she was at Z'ha'dum. I always wondered about that a little but don't recall anything ever being said onscreen or by JMS.
Jan
Jan
