Babylon 5 - How Bad was Season 5? Why?

[Gov Kodos]

The fifth season felt like it floundered for its direction. Lyta went through a character assasination that bugs me. I could see her reasons for hating what happened to the telepaths but I didn't like the way Sheridan and Delenn just let her drift away from them. Those two seemed to drop the ball with the telepaths more than anyone else.

I liked Lochley a lot. She was an out of control drug and alcohol user who got scared staight by Zoe's death. She went from one extreme to another in her backstory. (total anti-authority to never break the rules) I wish that there had been more pushing from Garibaldi on her position in Clark's regime. She may not have been one of the 'bad' officers, but she was certainly the good little Prussian officer that makes it easy for tyrants to stay in power.

 

[Jan]

The fifth season felt like it floundered for its direction.

JMS admits that to be the case in the script books. After the loss of Ivanova and of his notes for Season 5, he admits to clinging to the telepath arc longer than he should.

Lyta went through a character assasination that bugs me. I could see her reasons for hating what happened to the telepaths but I didn't like the way Sheridan and Delenn just let her drift away from them. Those two seemed to drop the ball with the telepaths more than anyone else.

While I agree that Sheridan and Delenn dropped the ball, I don't think that Lyta went through a character assasination. If you watch both Lyta and Talia, you'll see case after case where they're brought in to save the day and then seemingly cast aside when they're not needed anymore, barely even getting thanked. Sinclair treated Talia better, at least taking her out to dinner after a rough assignment but there was an unconsious prejudice on all of their parts so that the telepath never became one of the inner circle.

Jan

 

[Gov Kodos]

The fifth season felt like it floundered for its direction.

JMS admits that to be the case in the script books. After the loss of Ivanova and of his notes for Season 5, he admits to clinging to the telepath arc longer than he should.

Lyta went through a character assasination that bugs me. I could see her reasons for hating what happened to the telepaths but I didn't like the way Sheridan and Delenn just let her drift away from them. Those two seemed to drop the ball with the telepaths more than anyone else.

While I agree that Sheridan and Delenn dropped the ball, I don't think that Lyta went through a character assasination. If you watch both Lyta and Talia, you'll see case after case where they're brought in to save the day and then seemingly cast aside when they're not needed anymore, barely even getting thanked. Sinclair treated Talia better, at least taking her out to dinner after a rough assignment but there was an unconsious prejudice on all of their parts so that the telepath never became one of the inner circle.

Jan

Yeah, character assasination may be too strong. A lot of the anger toward Psycorp Lyta has would have made more sense coming from Ivanova. It makes Lyta's sudden rage against everyone seem overblown in season 5. I suppose Sheriden's strong distrust rests in Lyta's unilateral destruction of Zahadum. Both had valid points and I can sort of see Sheriden's keeping Lyta at a distance. Delenn's forgetting Lyta and Lyta's not talking to Delenn is odd as they seemed to have a basic trust for one another way back. It seems odd that that relationship disappears in season 5.

 

[Klaus]

I'm in between about it... I like S5 better than most people seem to, but it does have its problems... not actually seeing the Telepath War was probably the biggest, though I bet that would have been fleshed out more in Crusade...

And I also agree that part of the problem is how can mundanes EVER really trust telepaths? Even if you like and trust them on an individual basis, in general it can't help but be scary to have someone reading your mind w/o anything you can do about it...

 

[Gov Kodos]

I'm in between about it... I like S5 better than most people seem to, but it does have its problems... not atually seeing the Telepath War was probably the biggest, though I bet that would have been fleshed out more in Crusade...

And I also agree that part of the problem is how can mundanes EVER really trust telepaths? Even if you like and trust them on an individual basis, in general it can't help but be scary to have someone reading your mind w/o anything you can do about it...

I always liked the sense of distrust that existed between telepaths and non-telepaths. The sense of distrust and fear is something I would expect to find. I certainly wouldn't care for someone looking through my head at will. That was one of the aspects I found unbelievable in TNG's attitude around Betazoids. I would expect a lot of uneasiness around a race that thought nothing of ivading peoples thoughts.

 

[Jan]

Yeah, character assasination may be too strong. A lot of the anger toward Psycorp Lyta has would have made more sense coming from Ivanova. It makes Lyta's sudden rage against everyone seem overblown in season 5.

Maybe. But Ivanova herself was never mistreated by the corps. We don't know what it was that made Lyta go rogue since it didn't seem to happen right away after the situation where she was an intern with the Psi Cops. But something made her go rogue and then after all she goes through as a blip, Bester not only forces her back in, he makes her sign a contract that he can disect and study her after she's dead. not to mention eew!

I suppose Sheriden's strong distrust rests in Lyta's unilateral destruction of Zahadum. Both had valid points and I can sort of see Sheriden's keeping Lyta at a distance. Delenn's forgetting Lyta and Lyta's not talking to Delenn is odd as they seemed to have a basic trust for one another way back. It seems odd that that relationship disappears in season 5.

Maybe. I think that Delenn was mostly distracted with setting up the ISA, though and Lyta was hanging out with the telepath colony a lot. It would have been interesting to see what might have happened if Lyta had gone to Delenn and offered her help with the new alliance.

Jan

 

[Klaus]

That was one of the aspects I found unbelievable in TNG's attitude around Betazoids. I would expect a lot of uneasiness around a race that thought nothing of ivading peoples thoughts.

A good point, though it does fit in well with GR's original warm-and-fuzzy-TNG-future ideas...

 

[Gov Kodos]

Ivanova wasn't mistreated, but her mother certainly was. She also knows that her latent Telepath nature will bring on Psycorp abuse. She's even gone so far as to through Psycorp agents out of hotel windows (as Sheriden recalls) and was ready to blow Bester out of B5 space on her own initiative once. Lyta's rage against the corp doesn't seem as well developed as it feels like it just appeared with Byron and her feelings of being used as weapons by the Vorlons. Be angry at the Vorlons for that, it wasn't humanity's idea. I just felt Lyta's arc just seemed too forced as it had to contain elements that were more apt to Ivanova than Lyta. With Ivanova's Marcus issues she might have been easily falling for a persecuted Telepath like Byron. Lyta's falling for him just didn't seem right. Also, I never saw why Zach dropped away from her. Thrirdspace tries to address that, but it just never set right with me. (I really am a Zach/Lyta shipper at heart)

 

[Klaus]

^^next to Sheridan/Delenn, that's certainly the relationship which could have changed the galaxy the most..

 

[Neroon]

As regards the way Lyta's character changed and what brought her to that. it does seem as if she was mistreated ... which given the event sin "A Spider in the Web" makes it a bit surprising. Delenn had taken Lyta in and went to Sheridan to get assurances that Lyta would be safe. And Lyta herslef really did do an awful lot for the army of light in the wars against both the Shadows and Earth.

However, and I can't stress this enough, put yourselves in the shoes of people like Sheridan. Lyta has been frighteningly altered by the Vorlons, and they know it. Those same Vorlons ran roughshod all through out the part of the galaxy where the Earth Alliance and other races lived, coming within a hair's breadth of destroying so much. Lyta has demonstrated powers never seen in any telepath before. She on her own elected to destroy Z'ha'dum by telepathically initiating the self-defense mechanisms, without one word to Sheridan. Wouldn't you have a hard time trusting her?

Add to that the telepath colony... Sheridan is one of the few that Byron seems to be somewhat grateful to, insomuch as Byron could be to anyone. And yet, how they chose to live their lives there on the station affects perceptions of them. Some of it wrong, but some of it more than understandable. They chose blackmail instead of honest work. It's true that Garibaldi didn't trust them, and there definitely seemed to be quite a bti of the attitude that the teeps were mroe servants or objects rather than people. Now if Lyta is hanging closely with them ... again, it's not going to be easy to let her in so to speak.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Something that plays through is the show's view on race. Infection brings up directly the foolishness of racial purity, so does the ancestry of Delenn which she brings up with her family when they want her to leave Sheriden. The Telepaths are obsessed with defining themselves differently from the Mundanes. Byron and Lyta end up on a self destructive course because they can't see the lesson that G'Kar has learned. They are all one. The outer form is the illusion, and the telepaths are caught up in that illusion of being other, different and better than the 'mundanes' The whole nature of the first ones seems to be an evolution into a kind of gestalt. Individual consciousness linked by telepathy into a greater consciousness. Byron and Bester are bound on a course of self destruction because they look at humanity like the race in "Infection" they want racial purity, that defined by their view of Psy-ability.

 

[stj]

Lyta had interned with the Psi Cops and did not like what she saw. It might not seem like much to those who tend to think only personal motives are real motives. Talia is resentful for the seeming death of her friend Ironheart. Ivanova hates Psi Corp because of her mother and the obliteration of the Talia personality she was in love with. Their resentments are personal, ergo believable. But the truth is that there really are people who would reject something like Psi Corp for its cruelty to others, even if it didn't affect them personally. This is particularly true if they see an alternative, as Lyta saw the Vorlons. So Lyta was rogue long before Byron.

That is another reason why the telepath arc was not successful. Lyta had nothing to learn, either about telepathy or about fighting Psi Corps, from Byron. As for Ivanova, if Christian had stayed on, a third great romance (I count Marcus even if that one was unconsummated,) is just too many in too short a time. The catastrophic conclusions to Talia and Marcus could believably put her off relationships for years, as it seems to be the case in Sleeping in Light.

That said, a lot of the distaste for the telepath revolt arc dominating the first part of season five seems to be a distaste for the Byron, either the character or the actor. He never seemed to me to be as sexy as the storyline supposed, but that's quite common. Was the nonviolence too effeminate to tolerate the notion he was attractive? Was it the combination of nonviolence with other forms of aggression, such as extortion? Was it the haircut?

 

[Neroon]

man I really wish i could get some of you guys on our B5 panels at Marcon! You would really rock the discussion. This is great material!

 

[Gov Kodos]

Lyta had interned with the Psi Cops and did not like what she saw. It might not seem like much to those who tend to think only personal motives are real motives. Talia is resentful for the seeming death of her friend Ironheart. Ivanova hates Psi Corp because of her mother and the obliteration of the Talia personality she was in love with. Their resentments are personal, ergo believable. But the truth is that there really are people who would reject something like Psi Corp for its cruelty to others, even if it didn't affect them personally. This is particularly true if they see an alternative, as Lyta saw the Vorlons. So Lyta was rogue long before Byron.

That is another reason why the telepath arc was not successful. Lyta had nothing to learn, either about telepathy or about fighting Psi Corps, from Byron. As for Ivanova, if Christian had stayed on, a third great romance (I count Marcus even if that one was unconsummated,) is just too many in too short a time. The catastrophic conclusions to Talia and Marcus could believably put her off relationships for years, as it seems to be the case in Sleeping in Light.

That said, a lot of the distaste for the telepath revolt arc dominating the first part of season five seems to be a distaste for the Byron, either the character or the actor. He never seemed to me to be as sexy as the storyline supposed, but that's quite common. Was the nonviolence too effeminate to tolerate the notion he was attractive? Was it the combination of nonviolence with other forms of aggression, such as extortion? Was it the haircut?

I didn't like what the character represented. He was little more than Bester-lite. He was just as reactionary and full of himself as Bester, he just kept a patina of persecution about him, yet he was every bit the Telepaths before every one else that Bester was. Seeing Lyta become like them was just sad.

 

[mandragora]

I've never understood the complaints about Byron being too annoying or "not likeable enough" for the audience to sympathise with him. I never thought Byron was supposed to be likeable. He was a cult leader, a guy who could talk your head off about a peaceful mission, a better world, but who had absolutely *no clue whatsoever* how to get there and thus expected others to solve his problems for him. Which is why he ultimately failed. He was never supposed to be an alternate version of G'kar. If anything, he was a mirror character to G'kar. A perfect example for how a cult works, what cult leaders are like, why certain people fall for them, and why they fail. Unlikeable as he was, as a character he worked very well for me. A character doesn't need to be likeable to work well.

That is another reason why the telepath arc was not successful. Lyta had nothing to learn, either about telepathy or about fighting Psi Corps, from Byron.

I disagree. She learned from him to stop saying "yes" to everyone and as a result of her interaction with him, and his fate, she became a leader, as opposed to a submissive woman who kept looking for authority figures whom she could admire and who told her what to do.

I agree that the teep arc would have benefitted from a trim. The main problem with season 5, I think, is less the quality of individual episodes, or that certain things in the political set-up don't make a lot of sense (these problems were there from the start of the series), but the whole thing doesn't hold together as well as seasons 1 to 4. Which is mostly a result of JMS' seperating originally intertwined plot threads, due to the necessity of finishing the Earth Civil War arc in season 4, because of the cancellation threat.

 

[Gov Kodos]

I've never understood the complaints about Byron being too annoying or "not likeable enough" for the audience to sympathise with him. I never thought Byron was supposed to be likeable. He was a cult leader, a guy who could talk your head off about a peaceful mission, a better world, but who had absolutely *no clue whatsoever* how to get there and thus expected others to solve his problems for him. Which is why he ultimately failed. He was never supposed to be an alternate version of G'kar. If anything, he was a mirror character to G'kar. A perfect example for how a cult works, what cult leaders are like, why certain people fall for them, and why they fail. Unlikeable as he was, as a character he worked very well for me. A character doesn't need to be likeable to work well.

That is another reason why the telepath arc was not successful. Lyta had nothing to learn, either about telepathy or about fighting Psi Corps, from Byron.

I disagree. She learned from him to stop saying "yes" to everyone and as a result of her interaction with him, and his fate, she became a leader, as opposed to a submissive woman who kept looking for authority figures whom she could admire and who told her what to do.

I agree that the teep arc would have benefitted from a trim. The main problem with season 5, I think, is less the quality of individual episodes, or that certain things in the political set-up don't make a lot of sense (these problems were there from the start of the series), but the whole thing doesn't hold together as well as seasons 1 to 4. Which is mostly a result of JMS' seperating originally intertwined plot threads, due to the necessity of finishing the Earth Civil War arc in season 4, because of the cancellation threat.

I'd say your spot on about Byron not being meant to be sympathetic. He was, as Zach said, a martyr looking for some place to happen. Lyta, I agree, she learned not to be a follower, but she didn't so much learn to lead as to be a tyrant like Bester and Byron. She has the one and only truth (which is ironic having been trained by the Vorlons, she doesn't appreciate the Vorlon axiom of truth as a three edged sword.)

I think that was G'Kar's point when he suggested taking Lyta away with him. She needed to unlearn anger just as he did. He may have also sensed her falling into becoming a cult leader just as he knew could happen to him self on Narn.

 

[Neroon]

I think that was G'Kar's point when he suggested taking Lyta away with him. She needed to unlearn anger just as he did. He may have also sensed her falling into becoming a cult leader just as he knew could happen to him self on Narn.

A very cogent observation, I think. G'Kar saw some of himself potentially in Lyta, and knew he might be able to help steer her away from that.

Incidentally, what is the "one and only truth" that Lyta had?

 

[Gov Kodos]

Lyta bought into Byron's and Bester's view of telepaths. They are a race apart from humanity. Telepaths are born from non-telepathic humans regularly, but the telepaths of Bester and Byron's viewpoint don't see themselves as being in common with the rest of humanity. Mundanes are expendable, certainly in Bester's view. Lyta starts to buy into the view from what she percieves as the abuse of telapaths by the Vorlons, humans at large as well as psycorp, and perhaps by Sheriden and company in the war against Clark. Like G'Kar was, she is concerned with who started the pain telepaths endure, not who is suffering now- every one (non-telepaths through their fear of psycorp, blips, folks like Ivanova's mother, psycorp people like Talia used as fodder for psycorp plots, the list goes on and on)

 

[mandragora]

She has the one and only truth (which is ironic having been trained by the Vorlons, she doesn't appreciate the Vorlon axiom of truth as a three edged sword.)

Well, the Vorlons didn't exactly appreciate their own axiom either (actually it says "understanding is a three-edged sword"). They also, except for Kosh, thought they had the one and only truth.

I think Lyta didn't buy into the abuse of telepaths as much as Byron did; she reminded him several times that the Vorlons are gone. She also told Franklin how she was afraid of a war between teeps and normals. Certainly the manner the "mundanes" treated her after the war despite all she'd done for them didn't help (e.g. relegating her to smaller quarters, no concern for her problems as a rogue telepath - one might expect a little more sympathy from the command staff. But, as she said, "nada"). In Lyta's case, it was more out of momentary anger and frustration, rather than a general attitude.

 

[Gov Kodos]

I think your right about Lyta's anger not being a deep seated attitude. I suspect Sheriden's distrust was because Lyta lied about setting off the self destruct at Zahadum rather than actually doing it. He still wouldn't have been happy with it, but he would have been satisfied with an honest answer and accepting consequences for the action. Lyta doesn't trust folks around her and gets no trust in return. However, I'd say she also had options through G'Kar, Delenn and even Zach on a personal level, that she all together ignored for the sake of her anger and her honoring Byron's memory.