B5: Londos' 3 chances for redemtion *SPOILERS*

[Neroon]

Okay, I get it now. Must be too early in the morning for me.

As to the timing of the keeper refuting the chance of it being Londo's greatest fear, very good catch. That's part of the trouble with time-related plot development. It can be forgotten all too easily. Your argument would seem to remove the keeper from the list of candidates, leaving Londo's death at G'Kar's hands as the most viable choice. I say that because arguments against it seem to be less solid

 

[mandragora]

Yeah, well, it could be argued that from a certain point of view (Sheridan's) Sheridan was saved before Londo accepted the Keeper - but this doesn't make the whole situation a lot better. It would merely add to the time-travel entanglements surrounding B^2 and WWE.

This prophecy conundrum has been debated for years, and as far as I can see, there's simply no solution that's entirely logically sound. It seems the whole matter just wasn't thought out and written as well as it could have been.

 

[David cgc]

Well, unlike a real novel, when things changed down the road, he couldn't go back and tighten up the earlier bits to match better.

 

[Meredith]

Saving Sheridan is akin to saving Centari Prime itself.

The Narn and the Interstellar alliance was whipped up in a frenzy, if Londo had killed Sheridan they probably would have went mad ie. (just like the Minbari when Dukat was killed) and they would have wiped every last Centari from the face of creation. Sheridan was able to restrain the alliance and was probably instrumental in re-building Centari after that war.

 

[Philo]

^^I think he means that Londo cannot seize one of these chances but not the other. He cannot save Sheridan without letting himself be killed. Lady Morella, however, stated that if he has failed all the other chances, surrendering to his greatest fear is his final chance for redemption.

IIRC, JMS has stated explicitly that "the one who is already dead" is not Morden, but Sheridan (the post should be somewhere in the archive).

I'm not entirely happy with the whole prophecy business, either. For one thing, for dramatic reasons I would have expected that Londo fails to use two of the three chances - which, if Sheridan is the one who is already dead, he didn't. What is worse, if the "greatest fear" is the Keeper, the timing doesn't fit, because he accepted the Keeper before he saved Sheridan - thus the Keeper can't be his final chance for redemption. If the greatest fear is being killed by G'Kar, it's also not quite right for the reasons mentioned by Sean_McCormick - he can't save Sheridan without being killed, so failing the next to last but seizing the last isn't a real possibility.

Thing is, if you accept that the second chance of redemption was saving Sheridan in WWE, that means that the third and final chance is no longer necessary and no longer occurs. Because by taking the second chance, he's redeemed himself and changed the course of history (or at least, his own personal course of history). Therefore, that final moment with G'Kar is not another chance at redemption, but the outcome of a redemption that's already occured. Which, dramatically, fits the tragedy model very well.

He no longer needs to surrender himself to his greatest fear because, through his redemption, he no longer has such a fear. A fear which we as an audience can't know because he didn't have to face it.

 

[Neroon]

The three chances exist, regardless of whether or not Londo takes advantage of any of them. If he satisfies the first or second, he still may end up performing the third one, it jsut simply wouldn't be as necessary in the same context.

 

[hxclespaulplayer]

No "welcome to the B5 club, you chose a great show"? SiL is the only episode of a TV show that almost had me in tears - very powerful, moving stuff, and I can't think of anyone, even if they HATE sci-fi, that wouldn't be moved by it...

 

[Philo]

The three chances exist, regardless of whether or not Londo takes advantage of any of them. If he satisfies the first or second, he still may end up performing the third one, it jsut simply wouldn't be as necessary in the same context.

How so? Her wording only establishes that the third one will exist if he fails the first and second. It's moot on success. And why would he need to be redeemed more than once?

 

[Neroon]

How so? Her wording only establishes that the third one will exist if he fails the first and second. It's moot on success. And why would he need to be redeemed more than once?

No, she only says that if he fails the other ones, he still has that third one. There is no indication of cause-and-effect. They simply exist. Lady Morella's exact quote is:

"You must save the eye that does not see.
You must not kill the one who is already dead
and at the last, you must surrender yourself to your greatest fear, knowing that it will destroy you. Now if you have failed all the others, that is your final chance for redemption.

There is nothing in that passage that I can see which would cause one of the earlier chances to negate that last one. Sure, that third one would be superfluous, but it isn't canceled. Its need is canceled, but its existence is not. It isn't saying that he needs to be "redeemed more than once", only that he has three chances at redemption.

Compare it to driving down an interstate highway. Say you see a sign that says "Londoville - next three exits". If you get off at exit one or two, you don't need exit 3... but exit 3 still exists regardless of whether you use it or not.

 

[Neroon]

No "welcome to the B5 club, you chose a great show"? SiL is the only episode of a TV show that almost had me in tears - very powerful, moving stuff, and I can't think of anyone, even if they HATE sci-fi, that wouldn't be moved by it...

A plague of Drafa upon me for not welcoming you into the fraternity of Babylonianism. Here... have some Brevare on me!

 

[Sean_McCormick]

Not necessarily. The situation and the action might still happening, but of course it would not redeem him since he already is redeemed. Unless, of course if in the timeline, in which Londo took the first or second chance (supposing that saving Sheridan is part of the third), his position might be fundamentally different from what happened.

The "one who is already dead" might refer the regent, who due to his keeper is only a marionette of the Drakh (Death of free will ), who is killed by the Drakh the moment, Londo agrees to accept the keeper (so one could say, Londo "killed" him).
The control, that this situation gives the Drakh in the next 17 years certainly does not change the situation to the better. They take their time to plant bitterness in the Centauri (which might be the seed for the attack on Earth, that is hinted at in TLT).

To say no to the Drakh might have been the redeeming answer. The price would have been terrible, but after that Centauri could be rebuild free of the Drakh influence.
(As G'Kar realized: "Some must be sacrificed for all to be saved")
Unfortunately Londo's decision did not really save that many people since the bombs get detonated 17 years later.

If Londo would have taken that decision, Sheridan would not be a prisoner of the Centauri 17 years later, since
a) the destruction of Centauri Prime (due to the Drakh bombs) would not have occured at that time
b) due to Londo not giving a urn with a keeper to David, Sheridan would not have come to Centauri Prime in the first place.

 

[Neroon]

hxclespaulplayer, I have to take a moment and thank you for such a good topic. This has worked out very nicely, with some excellent discussion being constructed. Gives me an idea for a panel topic at a convention next year.....

 

[Lindley]

No "welcome to the B5 club, you chose a great show"? SiL is the only episode of a TV show that almost had me in tears - very powerful, moving stuff, and I can't think of anyone, even if they HATE sci-fi, that wouldn't be moved by it...

A plague of Drafa upon me for not welcoming you into the fraternity of Babylonianism. Here... have some Brevare on me!

So, being a Minbari, you just wished an illness upon yourself that you know won't affect you, and then offered to buy him something that you yourself cannot drink without endangering his life.

Some bloody welcome......

 

[Klaus]

B5 makes for the best threads...

Well I've not cogitated on all this in a while, but I always assumed that the "worst fear" was the Keeper... perhaps Londo's key act in regard to the prophecies was not accepting the Keeper but engaging in the final scheme to let Sheriden and Delenn escape and also have G'Kar kill him, thus freeing the throne from the influence of the Drakh? Is it as simple as his greatest fear being dying, but in this case knowing that it is for the greater good?
Two prophecies with one stone!

 

[Jan]

Here... have some Brevare on me!

Psst...you mean 'Brivari'.

Jan

 

[Neroon]

Psst...you mean 'Brivari'.

Jan

Never could spell that right.

So, being a Minbari, you just wished an illness upon yourself that you know won't affect you, and then offered to buy him something that you yourself cannot drink without endangering his life.

Some bloody welcome......

Consider it self-enlightened asceticism.

 

[glindros]

Here... have some Brevare on me!

Psst...you mean 'Brivari'.

Jan

Psst....Still wrong, I believe you meant to spell Z I M A

 

[Angel4576]

No "welcome to the B5 club, you chose a great show"? SiL is the only episode of a TV show that almost had me in tears - very powerful, moving stuff, and I can't think of anyone, even if they HATE sci-fi, that wouldn't be moved by it...

My personal favourite episode of television, anytime, anywhere. A phenomenal achievement IMO. There's always been a lot of detate and discussion around the influence of Lord of the Rings on Babylon 5. For me, that's not a bad thing. The finest example of literary fantasy inspiring probably the finest example of televisual fantasy/fiction. SiL to me, generates a tone similar to that which is evoked in the reader at the end of The Return of the King. One of the things that I always appreciated about Tolkien's epic is that it doesn't sharply end with the defeat of Sauron, instead you get the journey home, and you get the characters going off in their own separate ways. It's almost like an extended goodbye to the reader. For me, SiL was exactly the same. The majority of the action and the plotlines had been wrapped, here, in the final episode was the chance to say goodbye to the characters, even the station, without having to balance that off with the culmination of one of B5's epic struggles. To me, the episode was all the better for being removed from the events of seasons 4 and 5.

I know a lot of fans had problems with it, wanting more. For me, it's a masterpiece. Anyone that invested in the show across its five years can't help but be moved by that final episode, surely.

 

[RoJoHen]

Here... have some Brevare on me!

Psst...you mean 'Brivari'.

Jan

Psst....Still wrong, I believe you meant to spell Z I M A

That was easily one of my favorite things watching it the first time through. And it completely dates the show because I'm not sure you can even buy ZIMA anymore.

 

[Jan]

And it completely dates the show because I'm not sure you can even buy ZIMA anymore.

FWIW, they have a website that displays a 2008 copyright: http://www.zima.com/index.aspx And I'm sure that the sign was just a historical artifact.

Jan