B5: Londos' 3 chances for redemtion *SPOILERS*

[Augustus]

well regardless, if the eye was "g'kar's" eye or "I" or if the man who is already dead was Morden or Sheridan, and if the 3rd was necessary as a result of him doing or not doing the first two.. I think we can all agree that Londo redeemed himself...

Though I still think the man who is already dead has to be Sheridan, since the Drakh were coming anyway after he blew up the island... I don't think his killing of Morden was a tipping point with them.

 

[Colonel Midnight]

I always interpreted Londo's "Greatest Fear" as being the loss of control... i.e. the Keeper controls him, then he also surrenders to G'Kar, who controls his 'destiny'.

Cheers,
-CM-

 

[Nedersong]

Babylon 5 is not a very well known series like Star Trek or Star Wars.

 

[Sharr Khan]

And again, how can "the man who is already dead" be Sheridan, when Londo does spare him and it gains him nothing?

Aside from redemption as already mentioned above, it also gains him the freedom of his homeworld - since saving Sheriden a second death at the hands of the Drahk will let the ISA help rid the planet of its hidden masters. At least that's always seemed implied to me in the flash forward.

The Eye I think can be both Londo himself and G'Kar. Why not? They were bonded in almost everything else for good or ill.

His greatest fear is surrending to that moment of his impending death.

Sharr

 

[RoJoHen]

Babylon 5 is not a very well known series like Star Trek or Star Wars.

Good contribution.



I'm in the process of re-watching B5, and I just started Season 2 again. I'm actually really enjoying Londo's entire story a lot more than I did the first time around. It's cool to see them actually laying the groundwork for the madness to come. There is so much stuff I didn't pick up on the first time around.

 

[DS9Continuing]

Ooh, that back is looking sexy these days, RoJo.

 

[Forbin]

Babylon 5 is not a very well known series like Star Trek or Star Wars.

Yes, that added greatly to our understanding of the topic, thank you.

 

[Neroon]

Babylon 5 is not a very well known series like Star Trek or Star Wars.

Yes, that added greatly to our understanding of the topic, thank you.

Actually, I tend to agree with him.

Nedersong, presuming your comment is in reference to an earlier post musing whether or not spoiler code is necessary for all of this material, I think I see your point. B5 is nowhere near as well known in story as are Trek and Wars. Consequently, it's understandable that people may want to spoiler encode significant points, since time and again the impact of the overall B5 story is considered its greatest asset.

 

[Neroon]

As to the topic at hand, here is the actual quote from the aired episode:

"You must save the eye that does not see. You must not kill the one who is already dead and at the last, you must surrender yourself to your greatest fear, knowing that it will destroy you."

The "eye that does not see" ... is the one that has puzzled me the most. There are good cases to be made for it being G'Kar's eye, as well as for the "I" as in Londo himself. The problem I have with it being G'Kar's eye is ... what does it not see? Both his original eye and his prosthetic eye could see in the literal sense of ocular vision. So the "not see" would have to refer to something more ambiguous or less concrete. What does he not see?. I do tend to think that this is the first chance so to speak, but I still have that question.

The "one who is already dead" ... my gut tells me it is indeed Sheridan, and that case seems to have been strongly made by others ahead of me. Lady Morella is a seer, a prophetess. She tends to see the future in fluid terms almost as much as if it is present. Consequently, the tense she uses may blur what is currently true and what is to come. Therefore, even if at this point Sheridan has not yet died, she knows he will die and so may view that as being inevitable. It might as well have already happened because she might feel it cannot be avoided. One more thing ... notice the phrasing of "the one who is already dead." Could her use of the title "the one" refer to Sheridan because he is "The One Who Will Be" ?

Londo's "greatest fear" I am almost certain is his death at G'Kar's hand. Why? Because great pains are taken to present it as such. We see it in Londo's dream time and again, and that dream is frequently being referenced. Londo accepting the Keeper is a very strong candidate for this, though. You see the fear on his face as he willingly accepts it, knowing it may give him a chance to save Centauri Prime. Yet that came on so quickly as a plot element, that I am not as certain of it. True, JMS is well-known for having laid out "red herrings" throughout B5... so maybe I have bought into one and not realized it.

One more thing.... the last line of that passage from Lady Morella often gets overlooked: "Now if you have failed all the others, that is your final chance for redemption." All that is required is that Londo complete one of these and he avoids that fire. The final question for me is slightly off center. If any single one of these acts will save Londo, precisely HOW would each one do that? How does saving that eye/I help him avoid his fate? How would not killing the one already dead help Londo? How is it that surrendering to his greatest fear would save Londo?

 

[Brian]

The problem I have with it being G'Kar's eye is ... what does it not see? Both his original eye and his prosthetic eye could see in the literal sense of ocular vision. So the "not see" would have to refer to something more ambiguous or less concrete. What does he not see?

I refer you to MarianLH's earlier post:

I'm not sure about the other two, but the eye definitely referred to G'Kar. From an internet post after that episode:

Why didn't Londo try to save G'Kar's eye?
Yeah...would've been nice if Londo had at least tried to do something about the eye that did not see Cartagia's splendor....
Source.

One more thing ... notice the phrasing of "the one who is already dead." Could her use of the title "the one" refer to Sheridan because he is "The One Who Will Be" ?

Good catch! I'm even more convinced it was Sheridan now. Saving Morden would accomplish nothing.

One more thing.... the last line of that passage from Lady Morella often gets overlooked: "Now if you have failed all the others, that is your final chance for redemption." All that is required is that Londo complete one of these and he avoids that fire. The final question for me is slightly off center. If any single one of these acts will save Londo, precisely HOW would each one do that? How does saving that eye/I help him avoid his fate? How would not killing the one already dead help Londo? How is it that surrendering to his greatest fear would save Londo?

I imagine his showing mercy to G'Kar in Cartagia's court could have made things turn out much differently for the Centauri as the ISA was being formed.

Saving "The One" who is also President of the ISA seems to have clear benefits.

As for the last one... not sure. Maybe his self-sacrifice leads to redemption? Saving someone else the decision to off him and bear the burden of their acts? Or the destruction of a Centauri emperor with a Keeper changes the course of history.

 

[Neroon]

The problem I have with it being G'Kar's eye is ... what does it not see? Both his original eye and his prosthetic eye could see in the literal sense of ocular vision. So the "not see" would have to refer to something more ambiguous or less concrete. What does he not see?

I refer you to MarianLH's earlier post:

I'm not sure about the other two, but the eye definitely referred to G'Kar. From an internet post after that episode:

Why didn't Londo try to save G'Kar's eye?
Yeah...would've been nice if Londo had at least tried to do something about the eye that did not see Cartagia's splendor....
Source.

I can't quite buy that as irrefutable proof that "The Eye" is G'Kar's eye. That comment alone could easily be taken as rather quippy and humorous, moreso than informative as to the identity of "the eye." Consequently, I'm not entirely convinced that it is "Cartagia's splendor" which G'Kar's eye isn't seeing. Maybe there is some reference hidden elsewhere, in the script books or some such place. I don't know.

 

[mandragora]

Since Lady Morella spoke of Londo's "last chance of redemption", I think this is more about Londo himself, or rather his soul, than about the fate Centauri Prime. In the spirit of "Comes the inquisitor", it's about doing the right thing, making the moral choice, regardless of whether it serves to save millions, or just one person, regardless whether one becomes a hero, or the choice remains unacknowledged.

Therefore I think that the part concerning "saving the eye that does not see" indeed refers to G'Kar's eye, and like the scene in "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari" when G'Kar was whipped, it doesn't matter if it had succeeded in stopping Cartagia - Londo was there, and he had an obligation to speak out. Same as he had an obligation to save Sheridan, whom he knew to be innocent. As for "his greatest fear", I think it's surrendering to the Keeper. All Londo ever wanted was power, and the freedom to choose, and friends. And surrendering to the Keeper meant he lost all of that, and became almost a puppet. He lost all he ever wanted, knowing he would never get it back.

Along the same line of thought, I think the first two chances (the ones he wasted) weren't about stopping the "big events" either, but about making the moral choice in personal situations. My guess would be the incident with Urza Jador, and the treatment of G'Kar in "The Long Twilight Struggle", when he humiliated him in the council chamber, forcing him to resign as ambassador and trying to send him back to Narn.

 

[Neroon]

Good points, for certain. I'm not sure I agree about the incident with Urza as a possible "missed chance". It's been awhile since I saw that one, but Londo did take Urza's house into his own thus giving them protection from Refa and his cronies. Wouldn't that have been the "moral thing to do" ?

 

[mandragora]

I think that basically he traded Urza's life for his association with Refa. This conversation was before Urza challenged him:

Urza: Knowledge is a basic tool of politics. Mine is considerable! But I never dreamed you would be a part of his schemes! Why, Londo?
Londo: I have a destiny to fulfill. One which will take our people back to a golden age. We are Centauri, Urza! We are meant to conquer, to rule, to build empires! You, the hero of Gorash, should know that!
Urza: I am an old hero! And what I saw and did at Gorash still haunts me in the night! I do not want to return to that kind of glory, Londo!
Londo: Listen to me, Urza. No one can stop this! A new day is coming to our people --- a great day! And I can help you be a part of it.
Urza: You cannot build an empire based on slaughter and deceit! Turhan knew that. I thought you did, too.
Londo: Perhaps it is best that I go.

When he learned that Refa was behind it all, he once again started his "no one can change that" mantra. He accepted the situation for what it was, instead of speaking up and dissociating himself from Refa.

On second thought, another "missed chances" possibility is the scene in "Geometry of Shadows", when he first agreed to become a part of Refa's schemes.

 

[Augustus]

Since Lady Morella spoke of Londo's "last chance of redemption", I think this is more about Londo himself, or rather his soul, than about the fate Centauri Prime. In the spirit of "Comes the inquisitor", it's about doing the right thing, making the moral choice, regardless of whether it serves to save millions, or just one person, regardless whether one becomes a hero, or the choice remains unacknowledged.

Therefore I think that the part concerning "saving the eye that does not see" indeed refers to G'Kar's eye, and like the scene in "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari" when G'Kar was whipped, it doesn't matter if it had succeeded in stopping Cartagia - Londo was there, and he had an obligation to speak out. Same as he had an obligation to save Sheridan, whom he knew to be innocent. As for "his greatest fear", I think it's surrendering to the Keeper. All Londo ever wanted was power, and the freedom to choose, and friends. And surrendering to the Keeper meant he lost all of that, and became almost a puppet. He lost all he ever wanted, knowing he would never get it back.

Along the same line of thought, I think the first two chances (the ones he wasted) weren't about stopping the "big events" either, but about making the moral choice in personal situations. My guess would be the incident with Urza Jador, and the treatment of G'Kar in "The Long Twilight Struggle", when he humiliated him in the council chamber, forcing him to resign as ambassador and trying to send him back to Narn.

I think this is a very good point and could mean that he failed to "save the eye that could not see"... etc.

Way to go

 

[Neroon]

When he learned that Refa was behind it all, he once again started his "no one can change that" mantra. He accepted the situation for what it was, instead of speaking up and dissociating himself from Refa.

Ahhh, excellent point.

 

[Braxton]

I always took "you must not kill the one who is already dead" to be Sheridan. He died at Za'Ha'Dum, Morden did not. Morden even states "I was not as near the....incident....as others." when he's talking to Londo on Centauri Prime. I take that to mean he did not die but was severely wounded and the Shadows, being as advanced as they are, were able to keep him alive.

 

[Sean_McCormick]

My problem with "the one already dead" being Sheridan is that the act of saving him and allowing himself to be killed by G'Kar are not independent of each other, which, i think they should be.

 

[Neroon]

My problem with "the one already dead" being Sheridan is that the act of saving him and allowing himself to be killed by G'Kar are not independent of each other, which, i think they should be.

I'm not sure I follow ......

 

[mandragora]

^^I think he means that Londo cannot seize one of these chances but not the other. He cannot save Sheridan without letting himself be killed. Lady Morella, however, stated that if he has failed all the other chances, surrendering to his greatest fear is his final chance for redemption.

IIRC, JMS has stated explicitly that "the one who is already dead" is not Morden, but Sheridan (the post should be somewhere in the archive).

I'm not entirely happy with the whole prophecy business, either. For one thing, for dramatic reasons I would have expected that Londo fails to use two of the three chances - which, if Sheridan is the one who is already dead, he didn't. What is worse, if the "greatest fear" is the Keeper, the timing doesn't fit, because he accepted the Keeper before he saved Sheridan - thus the Keeper can't be his final chance for redemption. If the greatest fear is being killed by G'Kar, it's also not quite right for the reasons mentioned by Sean_McCormick - he can't save Sheridan without being killed, so failing the next to last but seizing the last isn't a real possibility.