Spoilers Avengers: Infinity War grade and discussion thread

[TREK_GOD_1]

The Chitauri are faceless mooks, not someone who personally attacked those close to him and forced him to watch. Thanos made it personal to Thor, that's why he did it. It's an entirely different situation and comparing them doesn't make any sense unless you just have no understanding of the character at all.

Apparently, you move the facts aside when convenient. By the time of the first Avengers movie, Thor had an established emotional investment in earth--in fact, his close friend Erik Selvig was right in the middle of the chaos, with Thor knowing his life was in danger, so to end the conflict as quickly as possible (thus increasing the hope that Selvig might survive), he did not employ a halfass / clueless tactic that left his enemies alive. The same applies to Thanos--only the threat was greater, and he fully understood that, so there's no excuse for this poor set up for a 4th Avengers film, when every other character around him (Wakanda) were trying to kill Thanos out of the gates. They all had everything to lose, and faced Thanos with that in mind, yet Thor just drops the ball at the most crucial point.

If he's angry due to Thanos killing Loki (and he was), and knew what Thanos was attempting, then he should have been more motivated to deliver the death blow, instead of only going far enough to allow a undeniably desperate creature enough of his fading energy to use the very thing Thor was trying to stop.

All things considered--character motivation, the do or die stakes in preventing Thanos from getting every stone, there's no sense in the writing a character who consciously comes up short when it mattered most.

 

[Anwar]

Apparently, you move the facts aside when convenient. By the time of the first Avengers movie, Thor had an established emotional investment in earth--in fact, his close friend Erik Selvig was right in the middle of the chaos, with Thor knowing his life was in danger, so to end the conflict as quickly as possible (thus increasing the hope that Selvig might survive), he did not employ a halfass / clueless tactic that left his enemies alive. The same applies to Thanos--only the threat was greater, and he fully understood that, so there's no excuse for this poor set up for a 4th Avengers film, when every other character around him (Wakanda) were trying to kill Thanos out of the gates. They all had everything to lose, and faced Thanos with that in mind, yet Thor just drops the ball at the most crucial point.

Only if he somehow knew that smashing him where his heart and major organs would be wouldn't be enough to kill him. He miscalculated.

You're just PO'ed that they're continuing the story instead of making Infinity War a self-contained one and done deal.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Apparently, you move the facts aside when convenient. By the time of the first Avengers movie, Thor had an established emotional investment in earth--in fact, his close friend Erik Selvig was right in the middle of the chaos, with Thor knowing his life was in danger, so to end the conflict as quickly as possible (thus increasing the hope that Selvig might survive), he did not employ a halfass / clueless tactic that left his enemies alive. The same applies to Thanos--only the threat was greater, and he fully understood that, so there's no excuse for this poor set up for a 4th Avengers film, when every other character around him (Wakanda) were trying to kill Thanos out of the gates. They all had everything to lose, and faced Thanos with that in mind, yet Thor just drops the ball at the most crucial point.

If he's angry due to Thanos killing Loki (and he was), and knew what Thanos was attempting, then he should have been more motivated to deliver the death blow, instead of only going far enough to allow a undeniably desperate creature enough of his fading energy to use the very thing Thor was trying to stop.

All things considered--character motivation, the do or die stakes in preventing Thanos from getting every stone, there's no sense in the writing a character who consciously comes up short when it mattered most.

You seem to have missed the entire point of the movie and Thor as a character. I’ve seen all the movies and I actually like the Thor movies. It’s entirely in character for him and expected from him. It’s even set up in the movie, Thor tells him that he’ll die for what he’s done and he says it as he delivers the blow. His failure is even foreshadowed.

Thor: You know, I'm 1500 years old. I've killed twice as many enemies as that. And every one of them would have rather killed me than not succeeded. I'm only alive because fate wants me alive. Thanos is just the latest of a long line of bastards, and he'll be the latest to feel my vengeance - fate wills it so.

Rocket Raccoon: Mm-hmm. And what if you're wrong?

Thor: Well, if I'm wrong, then... what more could I lose? [Thor walks away]

Rocket Raccoon: [mutters] Well, I could lose a lot. Me, personally, I could lose a lot.

The movie itself contradicts your opinion about Thor’s motivation and character. Thor was driven by his own anger and desire for revenge over the death of Loki, Heimdall and his people. Based on his dialogue he didn’t see Thanos as a serious threat, even Loki didn’t. Remember he told him that he would never be a god. Thor despite his development can still be arrogant, it’s something that the character has always dealt with. Even to this day in the comics, it comes up. That’s why he keeps losing his hammer in them. The movies have streamlined that, but it still gets the best of him at times.

Plus generally slamming an axe made for a god into the chest and major organs of a living being tends to be pretty fatal. Especially since it was wiping out an entire army before just by swinging it.

 

[Refuge]

It's not just Thor though is it? He isn't the only super hero that had to 'fail'. It wasn't that long ago "We have a Hulk" was a deal breaker. Now he has performance issues. Poor bastard.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

That's the problem with having any one of them so fantabulous, they make the other heroes appear like lackeys. Captain Marvel will swoosh in, save the day AND have enough time to pop back home and put a cake in the oven.

Except, she won't. That's not how any of these movies have been made. And Thor and Hulk (not to mention Dr. Strange) are certainly far enough above all the others in power level to have completely eclipsed them in the past. But it didn't happen then, so why on earth would it happen now?

Incorrect--Thor was not consistently presented as not getting it; in The Avengers, he was not wasting time trying to halfass the job to get in some last word with the Chitauri as they swarmed New York. He was on a killing mission as he understood the threat. And before someone says, "but he tried to talk Loki out of--" Loki is his brother, and believed in redemption for him. Entirely different situation.

Thanos posed a threat greater than the Chitauri, and Thor was well aware of it, so having his strike fail to be the finishing move against what could be the greatest threat he's ever faced makes the character appear clueless or not getting it, when the entire film up to that point left no doubt that he knew exactly who and what Thanos was.

There were other ways of leading to A4, but this was not a good one at all. One can imagine how Thor will explain how he attacked Thanos, but did not kill him with the first blow so he could remove the gauntlet...

Thor was at his absolute best in Avengers because he wasn't calling the plays at all. He put his trust in the noble warrior Steve Rogers who has the best strategic mind in the group and he did exactly what Rogers told him to do. In IW, Thor is not fighting a battle to defend the world with the strategic help of his brilliant friend. He's running an old school quest for vengeance against the man who killed half of what was left of his people. He's furious and he's arrogant and his treatment of the situation is entirely in character.

 

[Spot261]

Incorrect--Thor was not consistently presented as not getting it; in The Avengers, he was not wasting time trying to halfass the job to get in some last word with the Chitauri as they swarmed New York. He was on a killing mission as he understood the threat. And before someone says, "but he tried to talk Loki out of--" Loki is his brother, and believed in redemption for him. Entirely different situation.

Thanos posed a threat greater than the Chitauri, and Thor was well aware of it, so having his strike fail to be the finishing move against what could be the greatest threat he's ever faced makes the character appear clueless or not getting it, when the entire film up to that point left no doubt that he knew exactly who and what Thanos was.

There were other ways of leading to A4, but this was not a good one at all. One can imagine how Thor will explain how he attacked Thanos, but did not kill him with the first blow so he could remove the gauntlet...

Thor was at his absolute best in Avengers because he wasn't calling the plays at all. He put his trust in the noble warrior Steve Rogers who has the best strategic mind in the group and he did exactly what Rogers told him to do. In IW, Thor is not fighting a battle to defend the world with the strategic help of his brilliant friend. He's running an old school quest for vengeance against the man who killed half of what was left of his people. He's furious and he's arrogant and his treatment of the situation is entirely in character.

This.

Thor has not really been shown to be a tactical or strategic genius, in fact he's often been largely incompetent outside the delivery of brute force. That's been consistently present throughout his appearances in the MCU in that his combat is as much about pride as strategic gain, about proving himself against ever larger foes, be it for vengeance, pride or simply the challenge.

He works most effectively as part of a team with a more pragmatic and abstract thinker guiding him, be it Cap, Odin or (more subtly) Loki. Let to his own devices he is as much about proving his masculinity as he is about achieving measurable end goals.

 

[Refuge]

Nah. Not buying it. Much about Marvel and superheroes comes down to power levels. Thor, Hulk... Vision have to be dumbed down to lose.

 

[Spot261]

In the comics Thor has battled Thanos at least four times and lost conclusively. We don't need to dumb him down to explain why he can't just punch his way through the problem.

The issue though is that for the most part is his only approach and he doesn't do that particularly efficiently. He boasts, he shouts, he issues challenges, he gloats, he overestimates himself in pride and hubris and frequently has to re learn the humility which was, it's worth mentioning, the central theme of his first standalone movie. Time and again our attention has been drawn to how this takes him down the wrong track, how it ends up with him causing more problems than he solves or simply bumbling into moments of slapstick comedy, issuing challenges to nurses and passing motor vehicles and perpetually reminding us he is the Rightful Heir to the Throne of Asgard, The Thunder God, yadda yadda and mocking his enemies arrogantly when failing to focus on the task in hand.

It's directly parodied in Age of Ultron where he shouts "Is that the best you can do?", only for the army of robots to home in on him and Cap sighs, saying "You had to ask"

Expecting Thor to fight intelligently is like taking a proud, stupid, drunk guy from a bar who wants to show off to his girlfriend and giving him control of the nuclear button. He just isn't the right person to be making the big decisions.

 

[Refuge]

Thor isn't dumb though. I know he has to live his destiny based on comic book lore but one doesn't become a God of War, protector of mankind etc. without getting a clue here and there.

 

[Gov Kodos]

In the comics Thor has battled Thanos at least four times and lost conclusively. We don't need to dumb him down to explain why he can't just punch his way through the problem.

The issue though is that for the most part is his only approach and he doesn't do that particularly efficiently. He boasts, he shouts, he issues challenges, he gloats, he overestimates himself in pride and hubris and frequently has to re learn the humility which was, it's worth mentioning, the central theme of his first standalone movie. Time and again our attention has been drawn to how this takes him down the wrong track, how it ends up with him causing more problems than he solves or simply bumbling into moments of slapstick comedy, issuing challenges to nurses and passing motor vehicles and perpetually reminding us he is the Rightful Heir to the Throne of Asgard, The Thunder God, yadda yadda and mocking his enemies arrogantly when failing to focus on the task in hand.

It's directly parodied in Age of Ultron where he shouts "Is that the best you can do?", only for the army of robots to home in on him and Cap sighs, saying "You has to ask"

Expecting Thor to fight intelligently is like taking a proud, stupid, drunk guy from a bar who wants to show off to his girlfriend and giving him control of the nuclear button. He just isn't the right person to be making the big decisions.

Pretty much says it all. Thor is enormously powerful and wins because of that an not from his meager tactical or strategic skills. That's true in the actual mythology where it's Loki who provides the strategies and plans for Thor. The movies did a great job of capturing the dynamics between both characters which exist in the comics and from their mythological counterparts.

 

[Spot261]

Thor isn't dumb though. I know he has to live his destiny based on comic book lore but one doesn't become a God of War, protector of mankind etc. without getting a clue here and there.

Yeah he did, it's hereditary. He was deemed to be unworthy of the throne on at least one occasion precisely because of his lack of humility or understanding of the world around him.

 

[Refuge]

He did? I'm sorry but he did what??

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Original Marvel Cinematic Universe.

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[Gov Kodos]

The Original Marvel Cinematic Universe.

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'At last, I am free! Free to cause discord and wreak havoc and seek revenge...'
It's like every perma banned troll's dual that's posted on the BBS.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The original audience for that was 10 year old boys in 1966.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marvel_Super_Heroes

This is more recent, for a more complex audience.

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[Gov Kodos]

The audience for that was 10 year old boys in 1966.

Having witnessed some of the emotional maturity on display in fandom, I'm not sure there's been a great deal of maturation in the audience.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Having witnessed some of the emotional maturity on display in fandom, I'm not sure there's been a great deal of maturation in the audience.

Actually they may have regressed some.

 

[Marynator]

I don't understand why you're giving Thor such a hard time, his choice seemed perfectly reasonable? I mean like he drove his ax right into Thanos' heart, I mean why wouldn't he think that would kill him? Usually if you put your ax through someone's heart he's dead, right? I don't feel any heroes need to be dumbed down or changed at all, I mean I was perfectly happy with how everyone was portrayed in this movie, but they still lost didn't they? So obviously being at their best wasn't good enough, and now they've lost like half of them, so they're really in a tough situation?

I don't feel Thor gets lessened at all by Captain Marvel being stronger than him. I mean Thor is way more powerful than Captain America, but it's not like he's useless or anything? Hulk is really super strong, physically probably your strongest Avenger, but he couldn't defeat Thanos and is even too scared now to come back out, lol. So obviously like with this villain, who actually beat them, they need someone like you've never seen before. But she's not going to diminish anyone else on the team, she just has something they don't and can do some things they can't.

Thor seems to know when he's outmatched and he seems like he has no problem with humility and accepting it. Like he knew he wasn't a match for Hela so he allowed his home to be destroyed and deferred to that Ragnarok guy to destroy her, and he like totally was not at all bummed he wasn't strong enough to save Asgard, right? I feel he has gotten over his ego and understands his place better than he ever has before, so he shouldn't have a problem letting Captain Marvel shine as the most powerful Avenger?

 

[Spot261]

He did? I'm sorry but he did what??

It was the entire plot of the first Thor movie.....

 

[Captrek]

Is plunging Stormbreaker into Thanos’s chest supposed to be somehow dumber than attacking Jotenheim in Thor 1? Or bringing the Aether to Malekith in TDW? Or sending Loki of all people to the vault in Ragnarok?