Spoilers Avengers: Endgame grade and discussion thread

[ITDUDE]

The Soul Stone is what actually kills everyone in The Snap.

Soul World was a big missed opportunity. Very disappointing.

There are so many stories that they could have but didn’t tell. Cap returning stones is another full movie. Cap meeting Peggy, etc.. They had to cap (see what I did there) the movie at 3 hours.

With Black Widow movie and new Disney+ new shows I’m pretty sure we’ll revisit the stones yet.

 

[Saul]

Vindication! The Screenwriters disagree with the directors on how Caps last time travel worked. And it matches my interpretation!
From the Fandango interview:

Damn it. Just when I thought this issue was resolved. So which is it?

 

[Captrek]

Maybe Red Skull didn't need to hang around after the stone was gone, so Steve didn't see him.

Steve is supposed to return it just moments after it was taken, and Reddy doesn’t have transport, so he hasn’t gone anywhere.

 

[UssGlenn]

As to Peggy Carter secretly marrying Steve Rogers? I suppose on second thought, allowing intelligence officers to have secret lives is exactly how SHIELD=HYDRA worked. It could not have been a simple matter of "us" not being told it was to Steve Rogers. Carter's employees knew Steven Rogers was Captain American and would have drafted him.

Just change his name from Steven to Stephen, and no one would be the wiser . More seriously, we know Peggy kept her last name so Steve could have taken her name. Her newer employees would have no idea Carter isn't her married name. Stephen Carter, looks a bit like Captain America, but everyone knows Peggy has a type. It could totally work.

 

[theenglish]

I just watched it today. Much better than Infinity War. I didn't even realize that more than two hours had passed and was surprised to see the final fight start when it did. I've read the first seven pages of this thread and the final few pages so there is still a lot in the middle that I am missing; but, I see all kinds of references to major plot holes??? I didn't find any major plot holes at all really. I thought the film was well done, and I even teared up a little at the final shot of Steve and Peggy dancing.

 

[Gov Kodos]

I just watched it today. Much better than Infinity War. I didn't even realize that more than two hours had passed and was surprised to see the final fight start when it did. I've read the first seven pages of this thread and the final few pages so there is still a lot in the middle that I am missing; but, I see all kinds of references to major plot holes??? I didn't find any major plot holes at all really. I thought the film was well done, and I even teared up a little at the final shot of Steve and Peggy dancing.

Much of the talk on the intervening pages is debate over how the time travel worked and whether it left plot holes or not. Worrying about that is right about as worthwhile as star dates and nacelle colors. The movie worked great for me. I would have liked more of Captain Marvel in this but that is my only fault with this.

 

[theenglish]

Considering the movie went out of its way to explain how its version of time travel worked, it did a pretty good job of sticking to its established rules. Past Captain America thought he was fighting Loki, Thor talking with his mother who obviously doesn't reveal their conversation, and Tony snapping Thanos and his army back to their own timelines without any recollection of what happened. Those all seem to hold up for me. We just have to assume that Steve was able to live secrety in the past without anybody discovering his identity who made it public knowledge. Anything missing?

 

[USS Firefly]

Saw the movie yesterday with my wife and friends.
We loved It!
All the eastereggs about the previous movies and especially capt America in the elevator and later with Thor's Hamer and his reaction where great.
Only minor complain we had was the forced female Avengers next to each other on the battle, in Ifinity war they did it better.
I hope for the next phase we get a agent Carter, Guardians of the Galaxy, Captain America and Scarlet Witch movies.
And I want lady Sif back because she can't be dead

 

[theenglish]

I noticed the all female Avengers scene, but I loved it anyway. More importantly for me, my twelve year old daughter loved it. It is a great time to be a girl and loving action movies. After The Force Awakens, she wanted a lightsabre for the first time. She loved Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel. And she loves the Supergirl series. Great inspiration for young women--and that gives the scene a pass for me.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

So, any theory on what the hammering sound after the credits was?
Haven’t seen anyone talking about it, yet.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

There are so many stories that they could have but didn’t tell. Cap returning stones is another full movie. Cap meeting Peggy, etc.. They had to cap (see what I did there) the movie at 3 hours.

With Black Widow movie and new Disney+ new shows I’m pretty sure we’ll revisit the stones yet.

I keep hoping that we'll get a short film extra with the home media release that shows Cap returning all of the stones. That would be fun.

...and Tony snapping Thanos and his army back to their own timelines without any recollection of what happened.

Wait, what? I think it's pretty clear that Tony used to Gauntlet to kill them all, considering it was the same dust effect as before.

So, any theory on what the hammering sound after the credits was?
Haven’t seen anyone talking about it, yet.

It's Tony in the Afghan cave, building the Mark 1 suit.

 

[Trekker4747]

Boy, that was a slog to get through.

Oh, not the movie this thread. Jesus.

Thought the movie was great.

 

[Claudia]

Claudia will not agree to disagree.

Okay... it's you who still argued after I already called a truce before, not me. But I see some kind of red thread here, to sort of transfer issues.

The problem tge Stark in this movie is that to justify all that money (or maybe satisfy Downey's vanity,) hamfisted failed tearjerking was foisted on us. The problem was not that Stark was a flawed hero, much less that Stark was really a villain. The objection is to the in universe adulation when not everyone should feel that way. Nebula---Nebula!---gets all sentimental about his first death scene!

Sorry, you really finally lost me at your mixture of RL and in-universe. You can hate RDJ's involvement, the 2 "death scenes", the money he earns all you like - but you mix it up with Stark being a villain. He is a very flawed human being (as is Steve Rogers). As for Nebula: She just spent 21 days with him, he treated her like a living being. Really don't get the hatred you're spewing here. But if it fits your worldview...

(And as for mass production: Hm, don't see Hawkeye's arrows, Widow's Bites, serum-enhanced super soldiers, Falcon's wings, either...... - you only cite the heroes where mass production obviously isn't possible because they're inborn/-engineered traits.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

There was no secret marriage. Peggy WAS married in the previous movies, we just never knew who her husband was.

It was not Steve, since elderly Peggy (in The Winter Soldier), would have mentioned something so consequential instead of pressing Steve to move on with his life as if the past unfolded without him.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Stark has never been about accountability, but about him controlling things. I suppose to be fair that's what he thinks accountability is. Instead of letting Iron Monger sell his weapons, he supposedly gets out of the business, and goes into making suits, which he never relinquishes control of, permitting only dear friends access. In Civil War in particular, it's Stark taking charge all the way. The moment he disagrees with Ross and Freeman, he does what he wants.

As always.

Third, it is Stark who has it both ways, no one else.

Agreed.

Fourth, wanting to kill someone who was not responsible for their actions is maybe understandable, but it's wrong, wrong, wrong. And it wasn't a matter of temper: Stark was totally calm when he didn't have any great difficulty with shoot at sight, which is wrong, wrong, wrong. This is like execution of the mentally ill, except without troubling with a trial and jury.

Exactly--which makes anyone attempting to kill someone who was clearly in that position an example of moral decay tossing any connection to sense and morality over the railings.

 

[stj]

(And as for mass production: Hm, don't see Hawkeye's arrows, Widow's Bites, serum-enhanced super soldiers, Falcon's wings, either...... - you only cite the heroes where mass production obviously isn't possible because they're inborn/-engineered traits.

Supersoldiers are not a perfected technology, not amenable to mass production. Hence Tommy Lee Jones' fury in First Avenger. Hawkeye's arrows, Widow's Bites, Falcon's wings...there is indeed zero reason for them not to be in mass production (aside from wanting Hawkeye, Black Widow and the Falcon to be unique.) They are not however the inventors of the technology. The withholding of valuable tech from humanity isn't their decision. Stark's is. They made a slight gesture in saying he was going to introduce clean energy with the arc reactor, but that would change the world. Hollywood is a reactionary company town and the first audience (the studios) don't like the idea of real change.

Off hand, the only tech I can think of that a superhero is in the MCU is responsible for withholding other than Stark is Peter Parker. And as much as I enjoy Tom Holland's performance, yes, this makes it much, much more difficult to take the character "seriously." He meets a billionaire tech guy and doesn't try to sell the patent? Said billionaire tech guy doesn't try to buy the patent? Evidently these are not supposed to be real people in a real world, just references to comic books.

Lax Scrutiny is wise to remember having a different viewpoint is not the same as trolling, even when you don't agree. Thanks.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

It was not Steve, since elderly Peggy (in The Winter Soldier), would have mentioned something so consequential instead of pressing Steve to move on with his life as if the past unfolded without him.

She literally had alzheimers.

 

[Set Harth]

Tony snapping Thanos and his army back to their own timelines without any recollection of what happened.

Uh...no? He straight up destroyed them.

 

[theenglish]

Wait, what? I think it's pretty clear that Tony used to Gauntlet to kill them all, considering it was the same dust effect as before.

It couldn't have worked that way otherwise the timeline would have been affected. They all, including Thanos, must have been returned to a point where they have no memory of being in the future.

It was not Steve, since elderly Peggy (in The Winter Soldier), would have mentioned something so consequential instead of pressing Steve to move on with his life as if the past unfolded without him.

It was Steve--Peggy was a soldier and a spy and she knows that she needed to keep the information from the Steve in that timeline. (Of course, the in production real life reason is that the Russo brothers probably didn't have any idea that Steve's time travel would be written but it doesn't take a stretch of mental gymnastics to color the picture in.)

 

[Grendelsbayne]

It couldn't have worked that way otherwise the timeline would have been affected. They all, including Thanos, must have been returned to a point where they have no memory of being in the future.

Removing a stone from the timeline creates branch timelines (the Ancient One specifically says this) Thanos and all his people came from a branch timeline created after the Avengers stole the power stone. This branch timeline was then prevented from existing at all when Steve returned the power stone at the end of the movie. Thanos and his army were just killed, and there is no timeline in existence that ever missed them.