Spoilers Avengers: Endgame grade and discussion thread
- Thread starter The Nth Doctor
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He literally says at one point that the rest of the world needs to pay for what they did to black people, not wakanda, black people in general. Killmonger's belief that people of colour are still oppressed by western civilisation is one of his key motivators. There is also the scene where he confronts the curator (a white woman) in the art gallery which has plenty of racial overtones.
Considering how little the film made, it must have "been made for" a very niche crowd, so who is this out of touch guy? (He seems to know what he was talking about after all.) Not that I have a problem with that, bombing hard doesn't equal bad movie.
Even so, Black Panther himself didn't need to be black, at least based on the story. Killmonger could be a racist, and the attitude you describe from him above is quite racist, but T'Challa's race was not relevant to his character at all--other than this is how his creator envisioned him (which should be respected). Black Panther's race is not why he is awesome. His character is--black, white, purple, male or female, T'Challa is awesome.
Did Captain Marvel fail at the box office? I didn't notice. Though that quote from Brie Larson is actually pretty terrible. In one sentence, she happens to be racist, ageist AND sexist.
In the U.S
It made more than Civil War
It made more than any MCU solo film apart from Black Panther
It made more than Ant Man AND Ant Man+Wasp combined
Globally it's just behind Civil War.
Buh? T'Challa is Killmonger's *cousin*. And a key part of ending is T'Challa's realization that Killmonger was at least partly right, in his grievance if not his methods. I mean, it's not a coincidence that's it's a bunch of black kids that Shuri is showing off the Wakandan stealth jet to in the final scene.
He'd still be awesome, but maybe less so. Wakanda being in Africa makes it way more distinct than a lot of the other fantasy kingdoms in superhero-land, and that's part of its charm.
But I do agree that there are plenty of characters where race is irrelevant. Which is why it's so absurd when people get their knickers in a knot at stuff like a black Mary Jane Watson. They make spurious gestures toward "respect" to the source material, yet they're strangely silent about stuff like turning Drax from a human to an alien.
Well golly, I
If I'm reading the article correctly, his supposition is he used his last vial of pym particles and the Quantum Realm GPS to travel from the alternate timeline back to the main timeline on the day that we see him on the bench. So he lived his life in the alternate timeline, then presumably said goodbye to his kids as an old man, and traveled back to our timeline to say goodby to Sam and Bucky. I think.
If the film meant for us to think Steve's life with Peggy was in an alternate timeline, why wouldn't they have just had him return through the time platform? It would have made everything much clearer, and they could still do a dramatic reveal by having the camera slowly pan to reveal his old man face.
I'm convinced we're meant to assume he got his second chance in the "regular" timeline. Whether that makes sense or not is a separate topic. I think it does, but the movie is admittedly not super-clear about how any of this is supposed to work.
Also, does anyone remember if he already had a fixed, whole shield when he jumped back in time? I thought he did, but a lot of people are talking as if he didn't, and now I wonder if I'm mistaken.
I'm convinced we're meant to assume he got his second chance in the "regular" timeline. Whether that makes sense or not is a separate topic. I think it does, but the movie is admittedly not super-clear about how any of this is supposed to work.
Also, does anyone remember if he already had a fixed, whole shield when he jumped back in time? I thought he did, but a lot of people are talking as if he didn't, and now I wonder if I'm mistaken.
The 5 year time jump actually would have been interesting if Sony was in on it with Spider-man from start.
Peter returns to school 5 years later and finally meets Mary Jane Watson who was actually like 10/11 years old when homecoming happened. Won't happen since they gave another char the MJ nickname tho
She's a hot redhead, and those tend to be white. Plus, she was created white. I always say that if you want a character of a certain race or gender, create one, don't change one. When that's done, I think that's racist/sexist. Why? Because it implies that the race you are changing it to cannot be popular enough to sustain an original character. Maybe you can get away with it with a minor character, but with a major one, it wreaks of pandering and patronizing. And political correctness.
That's why I wouldn't want Black Panther to be white any more than I'd want a white character to be black.
That would be a brilliant idea.
Sharon represented the process of Steve moving on with his life--he built new relationships. Before he discovered the Winter Soldier was Bucky, he befriended Sam, and after the Winter Soldier conflict, found himself interested in Sharon, who also had his back during the events of Civil War, no matter the risk to herself. She took that risk because she--and Steve were acknowledging feelings for each other, apparently a long time coming:
Sharon: "That was... "
Steve: "Late."
Sharon: "Damn right."
That was more than about a kiss. While know the MCU never followed the comic book history to the letter, the Steve/Sharon relationship (at least) was a major fixture in the comics for decades, so its not as if there was no precedent for it in Cap's post-suspended animation life. Dropping her--not even a word about her in IW or A:E was conveniently getting a "problem" out of the way to set up his staying in the past.
So were the writers of A:E in regard to time travel...
I believe we were meant to assume Cap was worthy all along, with no restrictions on how long he could use it, simply based on the strength of his character throughout all MCU stories. Up to the point of A:E's final battle, he was not ethically / morally challenged in the way other characters were (think of Stark in several MCU plots), its just that he never felt the need to use it (when available), and again, he did not want to embarrass Thor, who was not shy about telling everyone about unworthy they were.
One, because she never indicated that in the bedside conversation in The Winter Soldier. How would Peggy explain (or wrap her head around) the idea that she married Steve--yet there's a depressed Steve sitting in front of her, unless she knows there was the First Timeline Steve in the ice...but that's writing something the films did not consider (or want) to add when TWS was written. Oh, then there's Sharon, who would have known the identity of the man her aunt married, and if she knew it was Steve, it would be rather strange for her to romantically pursue her own uncle, even if she the man she was dealing with was "another" Rogers.
Yeah, but that's writing for the film, when we are supposed to assume Steve was just himself when staying in the past, and frankly, would be worth screwing with the first timeline all to be forced to perform time micromanagement gymnastics in order to avoid that which you were not meant to participate in from the start?
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Her hair color's hardly essential to the character.
Don't know what you mean. You can change existing characters' race *and* create original characters of color. It's not like one comes at the expense of the other.
I suppose you also think the MCU changing Steve Rogers to a Brooklynite implies original characters from Brooklyn can't be popular enough to sustain themselves...
Yes, it was. T'Challa's story hinges on Killmonger being blood family. If T'Challa was white, Killmonger would be white and his highly racially charged story would make no sense at worst or come off as an offensive white savior trope at best.
The quote isn't about Captain Marvel, it's about A Wrinkle in Time. Also, the statement is none of those things and anyone with the honesty to see and understand the actual context of what she's saying would know that.
That's what he's saying, but he seems to have forgotten that Nebula stole pym particles to bring Thanos et al forward.
Well, the Russo's confirm it is an alternate timeline:
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/em-avengers-endgame-em-directors-124526621.html
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/em-avengers-endgame-em-directors-124526621.html
That wasn't the issue at all - from what I understood the platform isn't needed for travel to the past (only back to the origin point in the future). So he took the 2 extra vials of Pym Particles that he took back the first time in 1970 and travelled back to the 40s (without a platform), lived his life beyond the point where he originally came from (i.e. the funeral) and then travelled back to that point - that's why he doesn't need the platform and doesn't land back on it. That makes sense with the explanations given in the movie.
My issue was rather with the question of whether or not he created a diverging timeline by travelling back to Peggy - because if he did and then lived all his life and travelled back to the platform he'd also have changed timelines because in that alternate timeline he never departed. And that's not what the Pym Particles cover. The only explanation is that he did not change the original timeline by going back to Peggy at all (i.e. through disguise - which would be difficult as Peggy had contact with Howard, how would she explain her husband who looks just like Steve with perhaps different hair color)... which is a bit strange. I have no issue with the ending, I like that Steve got his happy ending with Peggy... but it's a bit of a stretch. *g*
Ah, yep... so the question remains how he got back to our timeline... nice. (And I want that Bucky series now... right now!!) *g*
Well, it's a problem for the comic-readers.
To me movie!Steve was all about the past. He never got past Peggy, he never got past losing Bucky. He even held on to some political/governmental opinions that might have been valid in WW2 where international cooperation failed spectacularly (prior to the war) and governments turned blind eyes...
And sorry, Sharon didn't have Steve's back - she made some stupid quote of Peggy's (which most probably was said in a very different context - and it was Peggy's words) which Steve took to solidify his opposition, supplied Steve with information about Bucky (why exactly? Clichéd female infatuation, a woman who loses all rational thinking just because her beau needs something). The whole idea that Bucky would be killed on site... there was no kill order back then, the violence began as Steve and Bucky defended themselves and was exacerbated when T'Challa intervened. Sharon as a government agent then broke out Steve and Sam and then supplied them with their weapons... and in all that chaos they kissed once.
And the quote... doesn't sound like love affair... many couples say that after much unresolved UST and then decide that they don't work as a couple etc. The whole love affair would have been much more credible to me if there hadn't been that 2 year gap between TWS and CW.
It failed because the story of AWIT has been copied so much and so often by every other YA novelist that it didn't offer anything new and because Disney cut out the religious stuff that would've let it stand out more.
But she pointed out that the director herself said she made the movie to appeal to black and biracial women and Larson noticed none of the critics were from that demographic and pointed it out.
If you bothered reading the actual statement, she was never talking about Captain Marvel. She was talking about A Wrinkle in Time, a movie she wasn't involved with.
Oh grow up.
She had Alzheimer's.
Why wouldn't she know?
Why would she know? By the time Sharon was born Steve would've looked older. She'd have no reason to assume he was Captain Rogers.
Definitely a set-up for (maybe) Phase 4 and (definitely) Disney+
Superman is every bit as worthy as Cap, and he had a temporary pass. I'm not as up on the history of the hammer as others so maybe the concept of a temporary pass in only a decade or two old. Or is it? I know 25 years ago, Wonder Woman was able to lift the hammer as well. If there is no temporary pass feature, then Cap would have always been able to lift it. But then again, other Avengers should have been able as well.
Grow a beard, dye your hair, and let's not forget--only a select group of people saw Cap's face and knew he was Steve. The WWII footage would be poor quality, and he would have been masked.
Yeah, but "can" and "should" are two different things. Creating means something. Changing is just racist pandering.
It wouldn't take much to make Killmonger white and remove the racial element. Just have him bent on revenge and make him an extreme nationalist. He can still hate the west due to its treatment of Wakanda, and hate Wakanda's government due to the treatment of his father.
Actually in her case, it's a trademark, not unlike Lana Lang.
You really can't excuse a racist, sexist, and ageist comment by saying "context." It was pretty clear her choice of words were all of the above.
I read the quote, not the original post, as there are hundreds in here. But I appreciate the snark.
I am, which is why I have no problem calling out racism, sexism, and ageism, even if it's against a race, age, and gender that liberals seem to think it's ok to hate.
