Just because Khan and HIS generation of Augments went power-mad, that doesn't mean ALL Augments should be seen as a bad thing. I mean, it's not like humans have dealt with stronger, smarter or tougher alien species for them to hate them. I mean, Captain American (or Marvel Comics) and Master Chief John-117 (from "Halo") are Augments. In fact, created Augments in their respective worlds is normal, and, in the case of John-117, it becomes a necessity to have Augmented soldiers, who weren't power-mad or crazy. In TNG and DS9, there have been a number of people and human societies that have engaged in augmentation, enough to be classified as Augments. Is it just a general attitude that Augments are automatically bad, or perhaps, like any other person, there is good and bad potential in everyone, and that, like humans hating mutants in the X-Men franchise, there is this general fear of gifted humans?
Augments SHOULD be accepted in Federation society...
- Thread starter dswynne1
- Start date
I think the reason why Augments aren't allowed is that there must have been multiple accounts (and not just on Earth) of Augments going off and being power-mad, causing great harm to various societies. That for every Julian Bashir, there must have been at least one Khan, and a decision was made that the risk of having another Eugenics Wars was too great and trumped whatever kumbaya policies the Federation might have.
It's not canon, of course, but if anyone has read the nuKhan miniseries by IDW, it painted a really horrible picture of what the Eugenics Wars were like and the global death and destruction they caused. I'd be afraid of something like that happening ever again too...
C.E. Evans is right, but there's another reason Augments aren't allowed, too. I'm not really allowed to talk about it, but, well, you see :KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK:
Hold on a moment. I need to see who this is.
*
*
*
There's some nice gentlemen here in black uniforms who are assuring me that they will keep my family nice and safe in the future if I end this post right here. So, have a nice day, everyone!
Hold on a moment. I need to see who this is.
*
*
*
There's some nice gentlemen here in black uniforms who are assuring me that they will keep my family nice and safe in the future if I end this post right here. So, have a nice day, everyone!
What was it Spock said in "Space Seed"? "Superior ability breeds superior ambition."
I find it interesting the way Trek has treated Augments and related technology. Taking the entire mythos into account (i.e. Into Darkness), the Earth of 1996 banned some amazing technology - technology which continued to be suppressed for centuries. In ENT, Arik Soong said that they never get sick, that they have lifespans twice our own - and that Henry Archer's slow and painful death by Clarke's Disease could have been cured by genetic engineering - perhaps as easily as Lucille Harewood was cured in ID?
Denobulans are genetically engineered, their people perfected the process and had none of the genocidal side effects humans had. I wonder if it's why we never saw any Denobulans post-ENT, and why Phlox survived the too-deadly-for-regular-humans radiation he used to defeat Borg nanoprobes in "Regeneration"
Oh yeah, then we have "Unnatural Selection", an episode which... uhhhh... never happened (or at least, that DS9's writers never saw)
I find it interesting the way Trek has treated Augments and related technology. Taking the entire mythos into account (i.e. Into Darkness), the Earth of 1996 banned some amazing technology - technology which continued to be suppressed for centuries. In ENT, Arik Soong said that they never get sick, that they have lifespans twice our own - and that Henry Archer's slow and painful death by Clarke's Disease could have been cured by genetic engineering - perhaps as easily as Lucille Harewood was cured in ID?
Denobulans are genetically engineered, their people perfected the process and had none of the genocidal side effects humans had. I wonder if it's why we never saw any Denobulans post-ENT, and why Phlox survived the too-deadly-for-regular-humans radiation he used to defeat Borg nanoprobes in "Regeneration"
Oh yeah, then we have "Unnatural Selection", an episode which... uhhhh... never happened (or at least, that DS9's writers never saw)
Trek maintains that genetic enhancements always lead to trouble. In a worse case scenario, you end up with another Khan, an intelligent power craving tyrant. In a best case scenario, you end up with the "Jack Pack," people who are essentially harmless, but unable to function in normal society. Normal well-adjusted Augments who aren't trying to conquer the universe just don't happen. Or at least, Bashir appears to be the only one.
I think there is a thematic reason for the rejection of Augments. One of the basic themes of Star Trek is that humanity has a hopeful future, that we can overcome the challenges and sufferings of our current world. The humans that we see in Star Trek are us; it is we who built that future. By rejecting Augments, the show is emphasizing that we are capable of reaching that hopeful future, and that changing our very natures is unnecessary.
But why does augmentation turn you into a lunatic? Are they that bad at the science? Because it seems like they can fix everything else, including most mental illness. So why they couldn't take some average person and fix them into being nicely above average without it going horribly wrong?
I can also see that part of the issue is one of fairness. Even Dr Bashir who did not use his augmentations to do wrong, still became a CMO at the expense of someone else with natural abilities who should have been given the job.
Obviosly it is not a crime in the Federation to have been augmented whilst young and unable to consent to the procedure - otherwise Dr Bashir wouldnt just have faced being sacked, but have faced prison as well. So it would seem that the restrictions on employment for someone discovered to be augmented are 1) to make it not worthwhile and 2) to keep them away from being able to cause too much damage if things go wrong.
Here's a little poser - Since Dr Bashir (and anyone like him) had been genetically altered, I wonder if Federation law would have required they be surgically sterilised to prevent onward transmission of genetic alterations to any children?
Obviosly it is not a crime in the Federation to have been augmented whilst young and unable to consent to the procedure - otherwise Dr Bashir wouldnt just have faced being sacked, but have faced prison as well. So it would seem that the restrictions on employment for someone discovered to be augmented are 1) to make it not worthwhile and 2) to keep them away from being able to cause too much damage if things go wrong.
Here's a little poser - Since Dr Bashir (and anyone like him) had been genetically altered, I wonder if Federation law would have required they be surgically sterilised to prevent onward transmission of genetic alterations to any children?
I suspect that if this issue ever were raised in Trek it would just be revealed that genetic enhancements automatically leave one sterile, in order to help sell the horrors of genetic enhancement without making the Federation look like knee-jerk reactionaries trying to exterminate any possibility of Augments. Or at least, the second-rate black market genetic engineering that goes on in the 24th century that leaves everyone hyper-manic or catatonic leaves them sterile. Even Dr. Bashir was left sterile despite coming out of it okay, personality wise.
From a story point of view, there has to be something bad about augments because otherwise it raises the question as to why all the characters are not augments. If it is obviously better to have humans that are stronger, smarter, always healthy etc then all humans in the Federation should be genetically engineered? This would make humans in Star Trek too different from real humans today for the audience to be able to relate to them.
In-story, I like the quote from Spock about "Superior ability breeds superior ambition." It has a certain logic to it. If you were far more intelligent and physically stronger and never got sick, never had any mental or physical problem or disorder that other humans had, it would be easy to start feeling superior since in many ways you are superior. But that feeling of superiority could easily lead to feeling entitled to power and authority.
In-story, I like the quote from Spock about "Superior ability breeds superior ambition." It has a certain logic to it. If you were far more intelligent and physically stronger and never got sick, never had any mental or physical problem or disorder that other humans had, it would be easy to start feeling superior since in many ways you are superior. But that feeling of superiority could easily lead to feeling entitled to power and authority.
Augments SHOULD be accepted in Federation society...
While there is a prohibition on Humans obtaining "enhancements," I can't remember any such restriction on any other Federation species.
So generally perhap the vast majority of Federation Members have no such restriction, and it is accepted socially, it also accepted that the Humans observe such a restriction.
Which is their right.
While there is a prohibition on Humans obtaining "enhancements," I can't remember any such restriction on any other Federation species.
So generally perhap the vast majority of Federation Members have no such restriction, and it is accepted socially, it also accepted that the Humans observe such a restriction.
Which is their right.
The reason for banning augments isn't because individual augments did anything wrong so much as, if they would choose to do something wrong, it would be incredibly dangerous. Which is morally atrocious but one of the few cases in Star Trek mythology where they pick the practical over the principled.
This is one of the themes I think DS9 completely fumbled. There are so many implications from the storyline they could have touched on. For example, augments who were pissed off at being second class citizens who just joined the Ferengi alliance, or even someone like the Romulans to be allowed to live up to their potential. Augments who have never done anything wrong but have been barred from Starfleet seeing Bashir get special treatment and then demanding equal treatment of their own. DS9 touched on none of these and all we got was Bashir getting to talk like a Vulcan occasionally and a couple silly recurring characters who were too slapstick for the dark storylines they were given.
If DS9 didn't want to go down the whole Psi Corps road they shouldn't have started a storyline that has it as a natural consequence. And retroactively made five years of Bashir character development and Distant Voices in particular make absolutely no sense.
This is one of the themes I think DS9 completely fumbled. There are so many implications from the storyline they could have touched on. For example, augments who were pissed off at being second class citizens who just joined the Ferengi alliance, or even someone like the Romulans to be allowed to live up to their potential. Augments who have never done anything wrong but have been barred from Starfleet seeing Bashir get special treatment and then demanding equal treatment of their own. DS9 touched on none of these and all we got was Bashir getting to talk like a Vulcan occasionally and a couple silly recurring characters who were too slapstick for the dark storylines they were given.
If DS9 didn't want to go down the whole Psi Corps road they shouldn't have started a storyline that has it as a natural consequence. And retroactively made five years of Bashir character development and Distant Voices in particular make absolutely no sense.
Last edited:
Denobulans aren't genetically modified in all respects, though. Phlox never demonstrated having the physical strength of Khan. And while they're not canon, I'm pretty sure a recent novel(s) have established the Denobulan state as a Federation member by the 23rd century.
Here's a thought - perhaps Denobulans are only as strong and smart as regular humans with their genetic augmentation. They may have been especially frail race originally.
Well, I think Roddenberry wanted to be closer to Aldous Huxley, so genetic engineering wouldn't be seen as a good use of technology, especially for creating super soldiers. With Space Seeds, they put this in the same category.
After the M-5 incident, Starfleet decided to abandon the idea of having starships commanded by supercomputers, but they could have also said "Well, this was a terrible incident, but we'll work harder and retest it when it'll be safe". Kirk stolen the Romulan cloaking device forty years before the Algeron treaty. Despite that, it seems they're never been a serious use of cloaking technology by Starfleet during these forty years. Why? Probably because it didn't fit with Federation values.
Aren't we mixing up a number of different things? Although augmentation isn't permitted, given the nature of the federation - if someone took a child and augmented - beyond not permitting military service (although they allow Julian), I wouldn't think that they could be discriminated against.
But why is 'physical strength' the important aspect? Many species in the federation are likely naturally stronger and as we see in a Measure of a Man, hyperstrength shouldn't have legal significance.
But why is 'physical strength' the important aspect? Many species in the federation are likely naturally stronger and as we see in a Measure of a Man, hyperstrength shouldn't have legal significance.
There seems to be a difference between augmentation and Augmentation.
Meaning: Khan and his ilk are apparently different in their 'programming' from people like Bashir. Khan's grouping were specifically designed to be ultimately ambitious and care only about power. All emotions like love and compassion and self-sacrifice were deliberately eliminated from their genetic makeup - they are literally incapable of feeling those things. They simply MUST be evil.
Bashir doesn't have that problem. The kind of enhancements that he got, were different than how Khan's group were created. Bashir wasn't made to seek power, his treatments were more like the fixing of birth defects.
So it seems that while Khan and his kind were incapable of being accepted, Bashir was capable of it. (As for the Jack Pack? Apparently something went wrong with their programming, such as it was.)
Meaning: Khan and his ilk are apparently different in their 'programming' from people like Bashir. Khan's grouping were specifically designed to be ultimately ambitious and care only about power. All emotions like love and compassion and self-sacrifice were deliberately eliminated from their genetic makeup - they are literally incapable of feeling those things. They simply MUST be evil.
Bashir doesn't have that problem. The kind of enhancements that he got, were different than how Khan's group were created. Bashir wasn't made to seek power, his treatments were more like the fixing of birth defects.
So it seems that while Khan and his kind were incapable of being accepted, Bashir was capable of it. (As for the Jack Pack? Apparently something went wrong with their programming, such as it was.)
Augmentation could easily be abused. I think that is the reason why such technology was banned.
Of course, anything can be enhanced or abused, so you could make a valid argument for legalizing it. However, I pessimistically believe more bad than good would come from it, so I would avoid it as much as possible.
Of course, anything can be enhanced or abused, so you could make a valid argument for legalizing it. However, I pessimistically believe more bad than good would come from it, so I would avoid it as much as possible.
Pardon me for saying so, but, BULL. Part of the reason Khan was deranged and hell-bent on revenge in TWOK was that he did love his wife and his crew, and he hated Kirk for what happened to them.
That's what Khan said, yes. But why take him at his word? Think about it.
As for his "wife": Yeah, he loved her all right. Loved her so much that he slapped her around within minutes of their first meeting.
Similar threads
