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Atomic Bombing of Hiroshima - 65th Anniversary (6.8.2010)

RIP to the victims.

It's also good that the U.S. officially participates in the ceremony for the first time, I guess. (Although the Japanese might have not felt very comfortable with that themselves back in 1960 or so.)
 
not sure if it's true but I read some where quite awhile back mind that it wasnt the people who had to surrender but the military. Also the reason the bombs where used was the americans were expecting a million casualties during an invasion.
again this could be wrong it was quite some time back i read this
 
The Invasion of Japan would have completely destroyed the country..estimates of Japanese casualties exceeded 10 million according to some estimates..US estimates ran from 400,000 to 1 Million allied troops..

The plan included the tactical use of nuclear weapons (up to 7 were to have been made available for the invasion)... and as radiation effects were poorly understood..many US troops would have died covering nuked ground..

Chemical weapons were a non-starter..but the Japanese were considering the use of biological weapons on US troops..

Suicide attacks were expected to be high...from suicide submarines loaded with explosives to the civilian with a hidden grenade running towards US positions..


The death toll from Hiroshima and Nagasaki's bombings were much less in comparision with the estimates from Olympic alone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall


The Atomic bombing of Japan was horrible..but a picnic compared to the planned invasion..
 
It seems there are a lot of arguments justifying the Hiroshima bombing in this thread. Personally, I've already heard most of them before. Now I've got a question... and this is mostly to satisfy my own curiosity more than anything else, because I don't really want to be drawn into a drawn-out debate which might be better suited for TNZ anyway.

My question concerns the statements of certain U.S. military leaders and experts regarding the Hiroshima bombing. Out of sheer laziness, I'll simply copy-paste some them from Wikipedia. :p

"The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan." - Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz

"The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons." - Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy

"In 1945 Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated." - Paul Nitze, 1946 United States Strategic Bombing Survey
My question is: Are there any generally known rebuttals to these statements and what are they exactly?

(Sure, one might say that these assessments could have been wrong... then again, the same could be said about the argument that millions of people would have died in a ground invasion of Japan. Which would leave us at a point where we don't really know anything for certain. However, since people in this thread seem to be pretty certain about Hiroshima, I'll ask what the usual rebuttals to those "anti-nuking" statements are?)
 
As I understand it.

The Japanese had made overtures towards the Russians (who they were not at war with) about the possibilities of a negotiated peace, using the Russian as third parties. Basically a cease-fire in place where the the Japanese would keep everything (and everybody) they had captured and the allies would simply go home with the Japanese good word that they would stop trying to expand.

The Russian keep the talks to themselves because they wanted to make territorial gains when they entered the war in a few weeks / months time.

The Japanese never tried to directly contact the Americans or the British.
The Japanese never mentioned the idea of surrendering.

From histories I've read, mostly stuff by Edwin P.Hoyt (good writer).
 
^

I'm sure a lot of people want us to apologize for a lot of things.

The simple truth is, it was war. A big, long, and horrifying war. Both sides do what they must in war to survive and attain victory. We had the means at the time to end the war in pretty much one fell swoop, and we took it. Aye, not our most shining moment, but there it is. We cannot undo it. And it put an end to a war that could have gone on to kill even more people, for a longer period of time.

An attitude that gets problematic if you want to blame other countries for warcrimes.

If North Korea or whatever other country drops a nuclear bomb on a city of its opponent, it will be considered a war crime by everyone, I can guarantee you that. And "Yeah well, wasn't our most shining moment, but we can't undo it, war is hell" won't be the accepted response, will it? And then the US will have to apologize as well, otherwise it would be the ultimate joke.
 
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The history of war is the history of pain:borg:
I think what is one of the most horrible things about the World War II is the profound human suffering, that particulary civilians had to endure( like in the case of Hiroshima)

I dont want to participate to the should have or could have debates about dropping of the bomb.
Is it important to talk about it? Yes, but I think arguing about it here and insulting other posters wont really change the past.
To me its more important, that we remember what took place during those years and teach to future generations about the horrors and history of WWII, so that we as a humanity wont repeat the same mistakes in the future.

Should US apologize? I dont know if its necessary..but showing respect to those who died is a good idea.
I sincerely hope that President Obama will visit the Hiroshima memorial in the near future and will lay some flowers there. This would send a profound message and would maybe help to heal the last remaining wounds still open in Hiroshima.
My feelings exactly.

In the end, it comes down to the age-old debates about Utilitarianism, exitus acta probat and, to coin a phrase, the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few.

I don't think there is a clear-cut, easy answer to a question like "Should the US apologize for the bombings?". I sure as hell can't answer that.
 
The dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima was a tragic thing, but one that was necessary in my opinion. Having studied US involvement in the Pacific theater in WWII extensively, there is no doubt in my mind that the atomic bomb saved lives on both sides.

Look at what taking Okinawa and Iwo Jima cost the Americans. Japan itself would have been many, many, many times worse. These were but two islands. The Japanese nation is composed of more than 140.
 
The dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima was a tragic thing, but one that was necessary in my opinion. Having studied US involvement in the Pacific theater in WWII extensively, there is no doubt in my mind that the atomic bomb saved lives on both sides.

Civilian or military, or both? Saving a million soldier's lives by killing a hundred thousand civilians might be just a wee bit questionable.
 
^

I'm sure a lot of people want us to apologize for a lot of things.

The simple truth is, it was war. A big, long, and horrifying war. Both sides do what they must in war to survive and attain victory. We had the means at the time to end the war in pretty much one fell swoop, and we took it. Aye, not our most shining moment, but there it is. We cannot undo it. And it put an end to a war that could have gone on to kill even more people, for a longer period of time.

An attitude that gets problematic if you want to blame other countries for warcrimes.

If North Korea or whatever other country drops a nuclear bomb on a city of its opponent, it will be considered a war crime by everyone, I can guarantee you that. And "Yeah well, wasn't our most shining moment, but we can't undo it, war is hell" won't be the accepted response, will it? And then the US will have to apologize as well, otherwise it would be the ultimate joke.
Well that depends on the context. Taking the event out of context, the US looks like a bunch of war criminals. When you start adding in all the facts however the picture starts to change.

1-The war was started by a Japanese attack
2-The pacific war had been going on for four years
3-More lives would have been lost by using the bombs than by not using them
4-The extent of the radiation effects was not really known at the time

When looked in context, the attack becomes much more justifiable.

Compare that to NK just nuking a city to start shit then yeah, the situation would be viewed differently. The US has tons of "opponents" but we don't go around nuking them just 'cause we can. If we did Venezuela, Afghanistan, Cuba and a slew of other countries would be craters right now.
 
^

I'm sure a lot of people want us to apologize for a lot of things.

The simple truth is, it was war. A big, long, and horrifying war. Both sides do what they must in war to survive and attain victory. We had the means at the time to end the war in pretty much one fell swoop, and we took it. Aye, not our most shining moment, but there it is. We cannot undo it. And it put an end to a war that could have gone on to kill even more people, for a longer period of time.

An attitude that gets problematic if you want to blame other countries for warcrimes.

If North Korea or whatever other country drops a nuclear bomb on a city of its opponent, it will be considered a war crime by everyone, I can guarantee you that. And "Yeah well, wasn't our most shining moment, but we can't undo it, war is hell" won't be the accepted response, will it? And then the US will have to apologize as well, otherwise it would be the ultimate joke.

Personally, I myself don't think the US military has any business at all being in any other part of the world during peacetime. It is the US military, not the global military... that's what NATO and the UN are for. If we just stayed home, and secured our own, we probably wouldn't have half the diplomatic and economic problems we do. I know many will not agree, and that's fine. Like I said, this is my own personal opinion.

That being said, we have NOTHING to apologize for during WWII, in terms of the atomic bomb. WWII was a war that had to be fought, and had to be ended. In Europe you had a fanatical fascist who wanted to not only dominate the globe, but exterminate an entire set of ethnic groups from the world, and in the Pacific we had an empire that launched an unprovoked and surprise attack on us, and ended up killing many who did not have to die. In war, you fight to win, and you do what you must to win, with the least amount of time and casualties.

If we could have used the bomb against Adolf Hitler, I would have said go for it. If it comes to it again, I would not in one bit be opposed to using the bomb again either, if it'll get the job done. Does that make me a warmonger or someone full of hate? No, and I could try and explain why, but that would get into politics, and I am not going to turn this thread into a political argument. The people here have varying points of view, and that's great... that is what all the brave men and women who died in our wars fought to give us... the freedoms we so enjoy today... even the freedom to disagree.
 
I know it gets into semantical nonsense but does anyone else think that calling the memory of an event that incinerated thousands of people as an "anniversary" is a bit too... happy sounding? Too ceremonial?

I know "anniversary" doesn't necessairly have to represent a "happy" event but more than often than not it seem to.
 
The dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima was a tragic thing, but one that was necessary in my opinion. Having studied US involvement in the Pacific theater in WWII extensively, there is no doubt in my mind that the atomic bomb saved lives on both sides.

Civilian or military, or both? Saving a million soldier's lives by killing a hundred thousand civilians might be just a wee bit questionable.

What I've seen has said a million allied troops plus probably double or triple that in Japanese troops and civilians.
 
I know “anniversary” doesn't necessairly have to represent a “happy” event but more than often than not it seem to.
“Anniversary” is an emotionally neutral word. It simply means the passing of X number of years since an event. It's customary to memorialize the anniversaries of sober and tragic events as well as happy ones.

As an aside, amid the controversy over the first and only use of atomic weapons in warfare, comparatively little attention is paid to the firebombing of Tokyo six months earlier, in which many more died than at either Hiroshima or Nagasaki, and just as horribly.

The Tokyo Fire Raids, 1945
 
The dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima was a tragic thing, but one that was necessary in my opinion. Having studied US involvement in the Pacific theater in WWII extensively, there is no doubt in my mind that the atomic bomb saved lives on both sides.

Civilian or military, or both? Saving a million soldier's lives by killing a hundred thousand civilians might be just a wee bit questionable.

What I've seen has said a million allied troops plus probably double or triple that in Japanese troops and civilians.
Definetly. If an army is invading a nation as heavily populated nation as Japan, there is no doubt that more civilians will be killed than soldiers. Putting that aside, let's also not forget that a good chunk of American soldiers at the time were conscripts. They were civilians who were forced into the situation. Are their lives any less valuable because their nation made them fight? Also, it's not the responsibility of the US government to look out for the enemy in a time of war. The number one priority for the military in war time is to accomplish its objectives. It's second is to protect the lives of its soldiers. It's a tad unreasonable to expect any country to sacrifice millions of its citizens to prevent the deaths of a few thousand of the enemy.
 
The only thing I'd blame the US for was ignoring decades of aggressive Japanese expansionism in the Asia Pacific region. The US and Britain did little to nothing to protest Japanese encroachment and military take over of Korea, Manchuria, and beyond. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the end result of decades of Japanese agression and the Hiroshima memorial attempts to paint the Japanese as victims is an insult to all those nations attacked by Japan.
 
The Japanese were going to surrender, there were already talks of it. Generals and Admirals have since come out and stated that the dropping of the two bombs was absolutely unnecessary. The bombs were dropped solely to show Russia that we could do it.

But let's say for a moment Japan wasn't going to surrender.

So what?

Japan was decimated. They were arming their soldiers with sticks by war's end. So why invade at all? Just leave them there. Their infrastructure was destroyed and they had zero capability of pulling themselves back together anytime soon.
 
The Japanese were going to surrender, there were already talks of it. Generals and Admirals have since come out and stated that the dropping of the two bombs was absolutely unnecessary. The bombs were dropped solely to show Russia that we could do it.

But let's say for a moment Japan wasn't going to surrender.

So what?

Japan was decimated. They were arming their soldiers with sticks by war's end. So why invade at all? Just leave them there. Their infrastructure was destroyed and they had zero capability of pulling themselves back together anytime soon.
Finishing the war in a way that Japan can't paint itself a victim. Unfortunately, MacArthur allowed just that during his tenure of initial occupation. Germany was allowed to behave much the same in the wake of the first world war. They painted themselves as victims of over aggressive victors among the right wing and the military. The Japanese wanted to negotiate a surrender, the allies were having none of it, and the atomic bombs were the underlining of that fact. Yet here we are, thanks to the soft peddling of Japan's war deeds of the prior 30+ years as victims. Let them, Emperor and Prime Minister stand there and apologize for that, let the Prime Minister and the Emperor apologize for all the trips to Yasukuni Shrine to honor the war dead, including Tojo there, and stop going there. Let them start living up to their past the way Germany has, otherwise, they have no claim what so ever on my sympathies.
 
This article from 2009 is interesting:
http://www.stripes.com/news/three-u-s-pows-added-to-roster-of-hiroshima-deaths-1.93398

The names of three American World War II POWs will be added to the official list of persons who died after Hiroshima was leveled by an atomic bomb on Aug. 6, 1945.
----
Their inclusion on the list of the 140,000 people believed to have died is the work of Shigeaki Mori, 72, a Hiroshima historian and atomic bomb survivor who spent three decades locating the families of the fallen Americans so they could officially request the names be added to the list.
 
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