Article on the Scarif Raid in "ROGUE ONE"

[fireproof78]

Except that, as presented in the film, saying there was a "plan" for the Scarif raid is vastly overstating. What we have is a group of renegade rebels flying seat of their pants because the situation is so desperate, and the rest of the Rebel forces being pressed into action by a combination of, often competing, forces. That things go as well as they do, aside from being a necessary function of the narrative, is a miracle.

Yes, it is a miracle. Which is why I say, "It could have been better, from a tactical point of view." Again, the coordination of an attack, much less a plan, would have presented the Alliance as more of a threat. The fact that the Scarif battle involved so many Rebel ships may have been a detriment.

Yes, the narrative functions very well. But, I'm looking at the tactical side. The two ideas can exist simultaneously.

 

[DonIago]

Actually, at this stage it may be better for the Alliance if they're not seen as a serious threat by the Empire, if that's what you're referring to.

Even after the Scarif raid it's not clear that the Empire is all that concerned about the Alliance. They dissolve the Senate, a move only likely to engender Alliance sympathies, and I don't think we've given any reason to believe that there's a significant initiative underway to do anything other than keep the plans out of Alliance hands.

 

[fireproof78]

Actually, at this stage it may be better for the Alliance if they're not seen as a serious threat by the Empire, if that's what you're referring to.

Even after the Scarif raid it's not clear that the Empire is all that concerned about the Alliance. They dissolve the Senate, a move only likely to engender Alliance sympathies, and I don't think we've given any reason to believe that there's a significant initiative underway to do anything other than keep the plans out of Alliance hands.

I tend to agree. The huge battle and fleet movement really undermines ROTJ when you feel like more worlds have joined the Alliance since the destruction of Death Star I.

 

[DonIago]

Do we know what the relative Rebel fleet sizes are between RO and ROTJ?

 

[David cgc]

Do we know what the relative Rebel fleet sizes are between RO and ROTJ?

Well, the Scarif fleet wasn't that big. You can easily see the entire group in the wide shots, whereas at Endor there were always more ships in every direction you could look.

According to Wookiepedia, (because I'm not going to count myself when it's already been done) the Rebels at Scarif had 1 smallish Mon Cal cruiser, 3 Dornean Gunships, 3 Hammerhead corvettes, 6 Blockade Runners (not sure if that includes Leia's), 4 Nebulan-B frigates, and 10 inexplicable Rebel Transports. Needless to say, the Imperials had two Star Destroyers and the Shield Gate (reinforced by an additional Destroyer and the Death Star). So, that's one large ship, four frigates, and 12 corvette-sized ships. And ten transports, God only knows why (the only thing I've seen suggested is that they're fitted with jammers and sensors and other electronic warfare stuff).

At Endor, the Rebels had ≥6 largeish Mon Cal cruisers, ≥5 Nebulon-Bs, ≥8 Blockade Runners, and ≥3 Dornean Gunships (and, oh yes, ≥16 transports to draw fire). They were able to hold off 1 Super Star Destroyer, about 30 regular Star Destroyers and, briefly, one Death Star. That adds up to 6+ large ships, 5+ frigates, 11+ corvettes, and who cares about the transports.

I'd argue that the much larger Imperial force implies the Rebel fleet was larger than the, "The most of one kind of ship we saw on screen at the same time" figures above, just because the Scarif fleet was only barley outgunning two destroyers, while the Endor Fleet was able to slug it out at what could have been 5-to-1 odds for nearly the same amount of time, and didn't seem to suffer as many losses as they did at Scarif. Of course, cinematically what matters is how big each fleet looked, but like I said, the Endor fleet was so big you could never get far enough away to see all the ships in it, which seems plenty impressive to me.

 

[Reverend]

And ten transports, God only knows why (the only thing I've seen suggested is that they're fitted with jammers and sensors and other electronic warfare stuff).

Also possibly for scooping up ejected pilots (not that we've actually *seen* anyone eject ever), fitted with quad cannons for anti-fighter point defence and/or they're rigged up inside with oversized military grade shield generators so they can act as mobile fortifications, protecting the core fleet from heavy turbolaser fire (note how quickly the Devastator ripped though a Nebulon-B with it's opening barrage.)

 

[Tuskin38]

Speaking of the Devastator, I love that shot of it plowing through one of those transports.

DICE copied that in Battlefront 2 with a ISD hitting a CR-90 when coming out of hyper space in an imperial victory cutscene.

 

[LJones41]

I'm not saying that the mission could have gone accordingly if better planned. I would have preferred if the main characters had taken the trouble to create a thought out plan in the first place, instead of simply winging it. They weren't exactly on a clock.

 

[DonIago]

I thought we just established that they were in fact on a clock.

 

[Ithekro]

Jyn's initial plan was to send everything the Alliance had to Scarif. The leadership rejected that, but they also were advocating surrender or going deeper into hiding. Or thought they would use the Senate to deal with the Emperor on this matter once they could get the evidence they needed of this thing (it seems Cassian's U-wing didn't take reading of the Death Star before they left).

The hit on Jyn's father seemed like the one dumb move in the film since it was after Jedha City was blown up by the Death Star. At that point its too late to kill the inventor/collaborator. The hit was to delay the Death Star's completion. The job's done. Best thing to do at that point is capture him and make him tell you have the thing works.

The Emperor disbanded the Senate within a week I think of the Death Star destroying Jedha City. Which means that the news of the Death Star's existence should have been made public. Or at the very least a strong rumor that the Empire has a weapon that can blow up anything, otherwise Tarkin's Doctrine of rule through fear wouldn't work. The population needs something to fear and a secret Death Star doesn't cause fear, but a very real and public one will. Alderaan was the first public display of its power, but its existence must have been announced at some point.

 

[Reverend]

(it seems Cassian's U-wing didn't take reading of the Death Star before they left).

What readings? It was on the ground when suddenly Jedah city was vaporised and it was still in the atmosphere *and* amidst the onrusshing debris cloud when it jumped out. Also, that U-Wing never made it back to Yavin 4.

The hit on Jyn's father seemed like the one dumb move in the film since it was after Jedha City was blown up by the Death Star. At that point its too late to kill the inventor/collaborator. The hit was to delay the Death Star's completion. The job's done. Best thing to do at that point is capture him and make him tell you have the thing works.

At that point all the Alliance knew was that Cassian (already ordered to execute Galen on sight) had confirmed the super-weapon's existence and that he had abruptly lost contact deep in Imperial space.
Merrick felt he had to assume Andor was dead or otherwise unable to complete the mission and opted to take out the target while they had the opportunity. Rightly so as it turned out as a few minutes more and Krennic might have taken him off world and out of reach.

The Emperor disbanded the Senate within a week I think of the Death Star destroying Jedha City.

Assuming Leia made no stop-overs between Scarif & Tatooine, it was probably more like a few days. IIRC the scene with Tarkin informing the joint chiefs took place *before* he blew up Alderaan. If so then that was always going to be the plan. With the Death Star in play Palpatine didn't need to Senate to maintain control anymore, or so he thought.

Which means that the news of the Death Star's existence should have been made public. Or at the very least a strong rumor that the Empire has a weapon that can blow up anything, otherwise Tarkin's Doctrine of rule through fear wouldn't work. The population needs something to fear and a secret Death Star doesn't cause fear, but a very real and public one will. Alderaan was the first public display of its power, but its existence must have been announced at some point.

Pretty sure the "Tarkin Doctrine" think was mostly from the EU, at least so far as the Death Star was concerned. From the canon materials it seems most of the galaxy just bought the official "mining accident" story. I don't recall if 'Lost Stars' (the most likely candidate) made mention of what the official line about Alderaan might be.

Keeping in mind how quickly events moved, from Scarif to Alderaan to Yavin in as little as three or four days and given how totalitarian states like to re-write history to serve the party line I wouldn't be surprised if the Empire made some statement about a new battlestation that obliterated the treacherous Alderaanians, but then when suddenly changed the story to have been the work of the Imperial Starfleet after the station was destroyed. I mean they'd hardly want to advertise the fact that the rebels humiliated them in open combat, would they?

I'm sure some noticed the change, but opted to stay quiet because who wants to speak out when the ISB could be listening?

 

[Tuskin38]

Pretty sure the "Tarkin Doctrine" think was mostly from the EU

It is mostly the same in canon

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tarkin_Doctrine

 

[LJones41]

I thought we just established that they were in fact on a clock.

I must have missed that scene. Why was it so urgent for Jyn, Cassian and the others to sneak away from Yavin and head for Scarif to steal the Death Star plans with a half-assed plan?

 

[USS Firefly]

I must have missed that scene. Why was it so urgent for Jyn, Cassian and the others to sneak away from Yavin and head for Scarif to steal the Death Star plans with a half-assed plan?

I don't know for sure but the Rebels weren't going to help, and they needed the plans as soon as possible

 

[DonIago]

I must have missed that scene. Why was it so urgent for Jyn, Cassian and the others to sneak away from Yavin and head for Scarif to steal the Death Star plans with a half-assed plan?

Because the Imperials knew the plans' location on Scarif had likely been compromised. At best they'd improve their security and/or alert status (and as shown the Rebels barely escaped with them as it was). At worst they'd remove the plans entirely (though Tarkin's approach was a bit over the top) and the Rebels would no longer have any idea how to get their hands on them.

 

[Reverend]

though Tarkin's approach was a bit over the top

Actually it was the most immediate and efficient method of thwarting the theft in progress. Had Jyn been just a few minutes longer in transmitting the plans, it would have all been for nothing. Though Krennic's presence makes the shot quite ironic, it's no coincidence that the Death Star's beam directly hit the transmission tower: that's what they were aiming at.

 

[DonIago]

Okay, but if Tarkin had arrived when the raid wasn't known to be in progress?

 

[Lakenheath 72]

I was watching the battle at the end of the Rebels' season three. I kept asking myself the same question, why aren't the capital ships of the Rebel Alliance firing their weapons? They are equipped with weapons, right?

In the Scarif battle, the capital ships of the Rebel Alliance again did nothing. They took hits and were getting destroyed, while they sat on their weapons. What the hell.

And, what are unarmed and lightly armored transports doing in a battle? Their supposed function of confusing and deceiving the enemy can be accomplished by the warships, which should have a suite of electronic countermeasures.

I do not like prequels. They seem to get something always wrong because the writers rewrite what is revealed in the films that came afterwards for narrative or dramatic reasons, like Leia somehow remembering her biological mother who died in childbirth. It doesn't work like that. The screw up is rationalized later and makes what was simple complicated.

 

[Reverend]

Okay, but if Tarkin had arrived when the raid wasn't known to be in progress?

He was only there *because* there was a raid. There's a scene that explicitly shows this. It's also why Vader was called in.

 

[DonIago]

Right, but the point of my original post was that Tarkin and Vader or no Tarkin and Vader, they knew that the Rebels might know the data was located on Scarif, which is why Krennic was there. One way or another the Imperials would learn that Galan had compromised the security of the plans and would have taken action.