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Article on the Scarif Raid in "ROGUE ONE"

I don't know how to feel about the fact that I lack the military expertise to weigh in on many things that that article says.

So I'll settle for, "I like the movie. It's possibly my favorite SW film, and overall I doubt has significantly more flaws than any of the other films in the franchise."
 
I also like the movie. In fact, I tend to rank it as my fourth favorite SW film. But, I've always had a problem with the Scarif raid and couldn't put my finger on it, until I came across that article.
 
Interesting article. As much as the Scarif raid is exciting, I agree that tactically it feels very sloppy, and that the force should have either been reduced to a smaller number for better infiltration, or been fully committed from the start.

Yeah, that was a rough lesson for the Rebel Alliance. Thank you for sharing.
 
I wonder whether it being a rough lesson was intended to be one of the points. That is to say, even when they (belatedly) get the will to fight, they don't quite have the logistics they'll need (and will eventually develop?).

In other words, perhaps it's sloppy because it's supposed to be sloppy.

Tactically, is Scarif really handled any worse than any other battle in SW? Are there battles in SW that would be considered well-executed?

My least favorite is probably Grievous bringing his prisoners onto the bridge with all of the big windows in RotS. It's like he wanted his ship destroyed.
 
Interesting article. As much as the Scarif raid is exciting, I agree that tactically it feels very sloppy, and that the force should have either been reduced to a smaller number for better infiltration, or been fully committed from the start.

Yeah, that was a rough lesson for the Rebel Alliance. Thank you for sharing.
Isn't the whole point that it's doomed to sloppiness from the manner of its conception: it's an emergency response to a rogue operation. Once the Alliance decide they're going to support the op they don't have time to plan anything, they just have to respond to the situation in front of them.

dJE
 
Isn't the whole point that it's doomed to sloppiness from the manner of its conception: it's an emergency response to a rogue operation. Once the Alliance decide they're going to support the op they don't have time to plan anything, they just have to respond to the situation in front of them.

dJE

The Alliance hand was some what even more forced by the fact that Adm. Raddus decided he was going to take the fleet and fight.

But even the Imperials were slow to respond. They should have had the shield gate closed a lot sooner than they did.
 
Isn't the whole point that it's doomed to sloppiness from the manner of its conception: it's an emergency response to a rogue operation. Once the Alliance decide they're going to support the op they don't have time to plan anything, they just have to respond to the situation in front of them.

dJE
Which is the point of the article-the operation was not coordinated enough to be a successful raid. That's why I think a smaller team could have been more successful and the fleet action could have been more coordinated, allowing the team more time to infiltrate and provide distraction.
 
Which is the point of the article-the operation was not coordinated enough to be a successful raid. That's why I think a smaller team could have been more successful and the fleet action could have been more coordinated, allowing the team more time to infiltrate and provide distraction.

I don't think anyone's denying that though. This seems akin to telling someone who's playing a sport for the first time "Wow, you're really bad at that." Of course they're really bad at it, they've never done it before.
 
I don't think anyone's denying that though. This seems akin to telling someone who's playing a sport for the first time "Wow, you're really bad at that." Of course they're really bad at it, they've never done it before.
No, but it shows the overreach of the Alliance and the thinness of the raid's plan. Which, as entertaining as the film is, from a tactical perspective, it bugs me. I appreciate the article for presenting it better than I could.

From a filmmaking point of view, I have long held that adding in more people to the raid team, rather than the Magnificent 7, was also a mistake. It diluted the cast to the point their deaths started becoming meaningless, rather than though desperation of the cause. It also shows the Princess Leia is incredibly naive in thinking that her ship fleeing from a battle would be able to fool anyone with the "diplomatic mission" bit.

Again, a solid film over all, but it has some unfortunate implications.
 
No, but it shows the overreach of the Alliance and the thinness of the raid's plan. Which, as entertaining as the film is, from a tactical perspective, it bugs me. I appreciate the article for presenting it better than I could.

Except that, as presented in the film, saying there was a "plan" for the Scarif raid is vastly overstating. What we have is a group of renegade rebels flying seat of their pants because the situation is so desperate, and the rest of the Rebel forces being pressed into action by a combination of, often competing, forces. That things go as well as they do, aside from being a necessary function of the narrative, is a miracle.
 
Perhaps then, the largest tactical error is that the Alliance didn't get behind going to Scarif to begin with, which in turn forced Rogue One to operate as best they could with the assumption that they'd have no backup and denied them access to resources that might have been able to form a better plan.
 
That all might mean something if there was a plan to start with. There wasn't much of a plan at all. Jyn wanted to do a mission, she got rejected by the civilian leadership. Cassian gathered up as many people as he could and they stole a stolen Imperial shuttle and came up with a seat of their pants plan on they way in. There plan might have a slim chance of working if the Rebel Fleet hadn't arrived, but that was slim. With the Rebel fleet arriving, their plan became plan B, than Plan C really quickly. When Vader arrives, it becomes Plan D. But that's not the end of the operation. Just the movie.

When Vader arrives again over Tatooine, it becomes Plan E. When Alderaan is destroyed, it becomes Plan F. When Obi-wan is cut down, it becomes Plan G. This plan gets them the plans to the Death Star, but since it is hot on their tail, that doesn't end the plan, it changes the goal form finding the plans to get a way to destroy the Death Star to implementing the plan to destroy the Death Star. So Plan H goes into effect with 30 Starfighters. Once Gold Squadron is down, it becomes Plan I. With Red Leader is down, it becomes Plan J. Plan J almost fails until Han Solo flies in at the last second (Plan K?) and the overall mission finally is a success. Death Star destroyed! Thanks Jyn.
 
Of course, if Rogue One hadn't raided Scarif then the Alliance wouldn't have gained access to the plans and wouldn't have known how to destroy the Death Star...
 
Of course, if Rogue One hadn't raided Scarif then the Alliance wouldn't have gained access to the plans and wouldn't have known how to destroy the Death Star...

It's possible things could've worked out better if they hadn't. The Rebels forced the Empire's hand in a lot of ways, and there's no real reason they had to raid Scairf immediately (aside from the fact that they had a shuttle with current access codes, but they could've stolen another one sooner or later). But with no stolen plans, Leia would've been able to retrieve Obi-Wan without complication, Alderaan may not have been destroyed (since it was specifically chosen to put pressure on Leia), and the Yavin base would've stayed hidden. The Death Star would certainly have been used on some planet once the Senate was dissolved, but maybe not for a little while longer. The plans could be stolen later on and, potentially, retrieved without compromising the location of Yavin base, at which point a Rebel strikeforce would just have to intercept the Death Star at a time and place of their choosing.

But, hindsight is 20/20, and I don't think the smart move is, "Let's see how many planets they blow up, and maybe we'll get around to stopping this doomsday machine later." The other big chance for something to go worse for the Rebels is if Krennic finds something when he audits Galen's files, and finds out the reactor has been designed so it can only fail catastrophically. There's a question about how much he could do about it at that point (the Death Star II apparently had the same flaw, and the Empire's solution was to patch over it by making it harder to get to the reactor, and adding an extra module that had to be disabled before the reactor itself was attacked, rather than designing a power system that wouldn't explode when damaged).

As for the article, I follow the blogger on Twitter. He wrote one more recently about the Battle of Hoth, also criticizing the Rebels' strategy there. I think it had the same flaw of overlooking narrative context (in that case, he calls out Hoth Base for not being designed to stand up to a siege by Walkers, but overlooks that the base probably wasn't fully fortified at that point. They'd only gotten their airspeeders working the previous day, so it's likely they simply hadn't had time to set minefields and create chokepoints in the terrain and whatnot. Could be the late Admiral Ozzel had been correct in preferring surprise to stealth, and if the Empire had taken the long way in to the planet, Hoth would've been better-defended once they arrived).
 
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It's been long enough since I've seen the movie that I don't quite remember the chronology, but the Alliance definitely had a countdown for retrieving the plans, starting from when the Empire grew suspicious that Galan might have given them a way to locate them.

I don't recall what explicitly alerts the Empire to that possibility, but once that happens the Alliance only has X amount of time to retrieve the plans from Scarif before that's no longer an option. As presented, Tarkin opts to blow up Scarif after learning the Rebels are attacking it, but if the Rebels hadn't attacked, it seems likely the plans still would have been moved or otherwise rendered inaccessible.
 
Yeah, once Krennic starting sifting though Galen's files with a more critical eye (keep in mind, he was convinced he'd broken the man decades ago) it would only have been a matter of time before he found the vulnerability and found a way to guard against it.
I mean it shouldn't have been too hard to divert waste heat and radiation away from a single small exhaust port (there must have been others!), so that there isn't a nice convenient shaft that drops straight down the the reactor. Fixing the vulnerability in the reactor itself would take more time, but the immediate danger and pretty much the only hope the Alliance ever had getting close to that thing without being vaporised would have passed.

Of course it's a bit of a mute point since in that scenario, Krennic is alive and thus the rebels never got the structural plans that tell them about the existence of the shaft in the first place.

Short version: without the Scarif raid, the galaxy would have been pretty much buggered.
 
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