Spoilers Arrow - Season 5

[Christopher]

When Diggle was upset with Layla becoming like Amanda Waller, I could see his point of view. Then Layla said she's always stood behind Diggle although she doesn't always agree with the way they do things together as a team. So why can't he do the same? Now I understand the position she's in.

I still say Lyla is wrong to treat those as equivalent. She has immensely more power than Diggle and his team do, so it's not an equal comparison. The leader of a government agency making moral compromises is potentially far, far more dangerous than a street vigilante making moral compromises. And thus it's far more imperative to hold her accountable. Now more than ever, we have to reject the idea that people in government can run roughshod over the Constitution whenever they find it inconvenient.

 

[Dick Whitman]

Well Diggle's vigilante group is lead by the head of the local government. Mayor Oliver Queen. Obviously much smaller scale power than a Federal office. But he crossed a major line when he ran for office. A mayor of a large city secretly operating as vigilante himself and leading a team of others means they are all breaking tons of local and federal laws.

 

[Christopher]

Well Diggle's vigilante group is lead by the head of the local government. Mayor Oliver Queen. Obviously much smaller scale power than a Federal office. But he crossed a major line when he ran for office. A mayor of a large city secretly operating as vigilante himself and leading a team of others means they are all breaking tons of local and federal laws.

But their decisions affect one city. Lyla's actions can undermine the freedom of the entire American populace. She has to be held to a higher standard. And yes, so does Oliver now that he's mayor. They all have an obligation to try harder to avoid moral compromises, rather than trotting out the tired old "greater good" excuse for making them.

 

[Jax]

So Prometheus was behind the attack that happened at the exact moment Felicity was putting in the thumb drive from Helix I would of preferred Helix to be behind it to set them up as a villian for next season instead of the grey area they seem to occupy at the moment. Also why didn't Olly/Felicity get Lyla to send a team from Argus to protect William (Matthew) as soon as they were in radio contact.

William looks to have aged a little quick from the last time we saw him?

 

[Christopher]

So Prometheus was behind the attack that just so happened at the exact same time, Felicity was putting in the thumb drive from Helix

I think that's a pretty standard thriller/horror trope -- the protagonists find a way to track the killer/monster, only to find IT'S RIGHT BEHIND YOU AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!

I would of preferred Helix to be behind it to set them up as a villian for next season instead of the grey area they seem to occupy at the moment.

I think they may be doing that anyway. They introduced Cayden James as this "nuke-level" threat, and avoided showing us his face, which implies they intend to do more with him but haven't cast the actor yet.

Also why didn't Olly/Felicity get Lyla to send a team from Argus to protect William (Matthew) as soon as they were in radio contact.

Maybe that scene with Prometheus and William happened earlier than we were shown, but was saved until the end for dramatic effect.

William looks to have aged a little quick from the last time we saw him?

It's the same actor, Jack Moore. And the last time we saw him was over 14 months ago.

 

[dahj]

I still say Lyla is wrong to treat those as equivalent.

She wasn't really comparing the scope of what they're doing, she was making a point about the level of trust her husband puts in her compared to Oliver.
And she had a point, Diggle was complaining about holding people at black sites, Oliver is currently holding Slade Wilson without trial on Lian Yu, ARGUS stole a T-Sphere, Team Arrow stole a prototype processor from Palmer Tech last season... while those are not nice things to do it was hypocritical of Diggle to raise that point, and a bit concerning that he doesn't trust her to know where the line is.

The leader of a government agency making moral compromises is potentially far, far more dangerous than a street vigilante making moral compromises. And thus it's far more imperative to hold her accountable.

The other side of that coin is, ARGUS is a government agency and ultimately accountable to someone(president or whoever), while the vigilantes are not accountable to anyone...

So Prometheus was behind the attack that just so happened at the exact same time, Felicity was putting in the thumb drive from Helix

Presumably it was rigged to blow when they found him, but yeah, that nobody even questioned if Helix was involved with this seemed kinda off.

This was mostly a filler episode, but I liked how it resolved the Oliver/Felicity thing so they can finally move on from the tired "no trust" thing that should have been resolved a year ago.

Oliver's reaction to the adrenaline shot was priceless

Don't get why the kid would have to change his first name, William isn't exactly uncommon.

While the criminals in National City use the Supergirl defense, I see criminals in Star City are now using the Prometheus defense

 

[Christopher]

She wasn't really comparing the scope of what they're doing, she was making a point about the level of trust her husband puts in her compared to Oliver.

But it's disingenuous to make it just about their personal relationship. The decisions made by the head of a government agency affect millions. This is bigger than their marriage. Diggle was absolutely right to condemn her use of illegal black sites, and he shouldn't have backed down. I don't want their marriage to break up, but he absolutely had the moral high ground there, so I didn't like the way the writers had him be the one to apologize. She was, and still is, the one in the wrong. And it disturbs me deeply that she can just brush it off as a minor marital spat.

And she had a point, Diggle was complaining about holding people at black sites, Oliver is currently holding Slade Wilson without trial on Lian Yu, ARGUS stole a T-Sphere, Team Arrow stole a prototype processor from Palmer Tech last season... while those are not nice things to do it was hypocritical of Diggle to raise that point, and a bit concerning that he doesn't trust her to know where the line is.

Again, that's on a much smaller scale. How many times do I have to say that? It's a matter of degree.

The other side of that coin is, ARGUS is a government agency and ultimately accountable to someone(president or whoever), while the vigilantes are not accountable to anyone...

But that is exactly the problem. The whole reason ARGUS is operating illegal black sites and holding people without charge or trial is specifically in order to avoid accountability. It's a deliberate corruption of how the system is supposed to work.

Presumably it was rigged to blow when they found him, but yeah, that nobody even questioned if Helix was involved with this seemed kinda off.

Chase/Morrison had no way of knowing that Felicity had that tech to detect him. His plan was simply to set the EMP, get out, and blow it, trapping Oliver in the lair while he went after William. It was pure accident, for dramatic effect, that Felicity detected him in time to see what was coming but too late to stop it.

Fiction is often driven by unlikely coincidences, things that have no in-universe reason for happening when they do but that happen for the sake of dramatic impact or convenience. Like having a suspect's lawyer barge in and shut down the interrogation just seconds before he spills the big secret. Or having the hero defuse the bomb just one or two seconds before it blows up, or having the cavalry ride over the hill and save the heroes just seconds before they would've been killed. Or having two people with unresolved romantic tension always get interrupted just seconds before they finally kiss. Or, in this particular trope, giving the heroes a means to catch the killer but having them discover it's already too late because the killer got to them first.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

So close to getting a Phantasm-style T-sphere.

Damn, Diggle's got a hell of a grip!

 

[Christopher]

Nice to see Thea back. But I find the ending a bit implausible. After all the mind games and ten-steps-ahead scheming Chase/Morrison has done, the team actually buys that a single "Your daddy didn't love you" speech from Oliver was enough to break Prometheus? Obviously he set the whole thing up and took a dive on purpose. I don't like stories where the protagonists' paranoia fails them exactly when it's most obvious that they're walking into a trap.

Although Prometheus is kind of a hypocrite, since his whole plan relied on Oliver not killing him when he had the chance -- which proves he knows it's a lie that Oliver is fundamentally a murderer. That was just one more mind game to try to break him.

I really thought we'd come full circle on the island flashbacks, and I was surprised that was happening so soon. And then Kovar showed up. Still a bit more to go.

 

[Tuskin38]

Thea being there was a really convenient for (part of) the plot.

 

[Christopher]

Thea being there was a really convenient for (part of) the plot.

Given that it was about Robert Queen's legacy being called into question, it would've been rather unfair to her character if she hadn't been there for it. And plot aside, it was important thematically to tie her own angst about her evil parentage into a story about Oliver and Prometheus both confronting their own fathers' influence.

They knew they'd only have Willa Holland for a certain number of episodes this year, so they made sure she'd be included in the episodes that needed her the most.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Thea is living proof that Robert was a cuck.,

 

[dahj]

Yay, Thea and Green Arrow back in the same episode!
And Dolph.

Rene was totally kidnapped by Chase, he didn't stand his daughter up, right?

After all the mind games and ten-steps-ahead scheming Chase/Morrison has done, the team actually buys that a single "Your daddy didn't love you" speech from Oliver was enough to break Prometheus?

Yeah, they let their guard down way too fast. He is in custody, and they have no clue about William, so from their perspective there is no apparent threat coming from him, but considering all he's done before to just assume he hasn't got something up his sleeve is awfully naive.

Although Prometheus is kind of a hypocrite, since his whole plan relied on Oliver not killing him when he had the chance -- which proves he knows it's a lie that Oliver is fundamentally a murderer.

I wouldn't be so sure, he stacked the deck pretty good.
I think he played a bit with reverse psychology here, by making it look like he's trying to prove Oliver's a murderer from a long line of murderers, he expected Oliver to be contrarian even if he is a murderer, and by dragging his father into it he virtually ensured he wouldn't pull the trigger, because it's not just Oliver's integrity at stake here, it's also his father's legacy.
And he had a wild card as backup, had it looked like Oliver was going to kill him at any point all he had to do was say he had William...

 

[tomalak301]

That was the best episode since they came back from the hiatus. Really loved the themes of legacy and letting the past be the past and in terms of advancing this arc, it feels like the idea of Legacy and the past catching up with you has been the main theme of the season. Also for the second week in a row Felicity was the star of the show with that scene with Oliver. It's great that the writers seemed to want to go back to season 1 Felicity in that she represents Olivers conscience in a sense.

As for Thea being back, I would have been pissed of she had not been there for an episode like this. The entire show revolves around the idea of Oliver and Thea having questionable parents trying (and failing) to do good. Also considering the reason Thea left was because of the realization that she was becoming like Moira every day, she had to see that last message from Robert.

I've been trying to back off saying how I saw the series during the winter hiatus, but like the first half of the season, I'm still pretty familiar with season 1 and this episode felt like a reaction to those early episodes. I find it really rewarding.

 

[Christopher]

That was the best episode since they came back from the hiatus. Really loved the themes of legacy and letting the past be the past and in terms of advancing this arc, I feels like the idea of Legacy and the past catching up with you has been the main theme of the season. Also for the second week in a row Felicity was the star of the show with that scene with Oliver. It'd great that the writers seemed to want to go back to season 1 Felicity in that she represents Olivers conscience in a sense.

I agree, but it's an important step to see them deciding that it's time to stop being defined by their past and to build their own identity and purpose in life going forward -- a choice that's symbolically represented by the imminent end of the 5-year-long flashback cycle. (I wonder how long it'll be before someone does a fan supercut of the entire series to date in chronological order. I bet some people are already working on it.) I mean, becoming a superhero to atone for one's past or cope with a childhood tragedy is all well and good, but ultimately the primary purpose of the job should be to help other people, not just to get therapy or expiation for oneself. It should be about building a better future, not dwelling in the past. Oliver's tried to make that transition several times now, but his past baggage keeps dragging him back. Hopefully this time it'll finally stick.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

So the T-Sphere can cut through a foot of metal? Bet they'll forget that as quickly as Coulson's face-slicing shield.

Nice to see Thea back.

Her front's not bad either.

 

[Phoenix219]

So this flashback with Robert was the events they talked about in Season 1, then, correct?

 

[dahj]

So this flashback with Robert was the events they talked about in Season 1, then, correct?

What flashback?

 

[USS Firefly]

What flashback?

Ik think he means the video footage

 

[Jax]

How does a sword make Diggle drive his car in such a manner and I wonder where this version of Malcolm lies in the timeline.