Although it must be said that allowing an AI to control of Strategic Defence is a no no, its as if none of them have ever seen Terminator.
Poll Are you enjoying Section 31?
- Thread starter F. King Daniel
- Start date
These are admirably strong & insightful arguments for both a real world and ST series considerations for the existence of such an entity.
My own examinations of such covert entities (again real world & what I am drawn to in ST) is that this is a tricky slippery direction that requires even stronger moral character monitoring it to keep it from incrementally sliding past what is, or may seem, seriously necessary ... into a skewed perception of those necessities... and acting on them.
The sec31 I'm seeing demonstrated in our series is not one I can admire nor support. And it's really not that I am blind to real world & our ST universe necessities to entertain the covert.
It is that I, myself, am drawn to ST to see glimpses of what we as a species - in a future time - might have learned ... which, again to me, is good people making those hard decisions to be our better selves. Especially during times of needed covert actions.
Speaking only for myself, I do not support the hidden agency/entity/etc doing what I cannot or will not do. But rather, I absolutely support the covert agency/entity/etc doing what needs to be done without having cart blanc as its directive.
The sec31 I see on the series is not one I admire or support.
Though your arguments for it in our series were excellent.
I am NOT enjoying Section 31.
To be fair, Captain Georgiou was boring to me, this character had no depth. Emperor Georgiou seems to be more interesting. More flexible, more empathetic than Prime Georgiou. But it makes me mad! It looks like the goal of the 1st season was to portray Feds as boring helpless idealists a counterweight smart and attractive Terrans.
Now, if you pay attention, Leeland is idealistic in his own way and quite boring too. Other S31 officers are mostly nameless and wordless. I like Tyler, but he is actually not a part of Section 31. So whom would be this spin-off about? Boring kind people against adorable villain? Nooo...
To be fair, Captain Georgiou was boring to me, this character had no depth. Emperor Georgiou seems to be more interesting. More flexible, more empathetic than Prime Georgiou. But it makes me mad! It looks like the goal of the 1st season was to portray Feds as boring helpless idealists a counterweight smart and attractive Terrans.
Now, if you pay attention, Leeland is idealistic in his own way and quite boring too. Other S31 officers are mostly nameless and wordless. I like Tyler, but he is actually not a part of Section 31. So whom would be this spin-off about? Boring kind people against adorable villain? Nooo...
Ace Venturer: Daggit WhispererI would pay to see that.
I know this is a bit late, but the actor - Harry Judge, that played the Tellarites, Tevrin Krit in The Escape Artist short and Gorch in S1 told me that the S31 Admirals that he and Riley Gilchrist (Shukar) played in S2 were new unnamed characters. They are not Shukar and Gorch.
Half-necro, half-not.
The answer is yes: I still enjoy Section 31. I've enjoyed them since 1998.
The answer is yes: I still enjoy Section 31. I've enjoyed them since 1998.
I would like Section 31 if it consisted of one Tyler 
Sorry, I adore this guy, and DS9 never was my favorite show.
Sorry, I adore this guy, and DS9 never was my favorite show.
Or why they would let Daystrom try it again a couple decades later.
As some have said, I like Sec. 31 in small doses in specific (and specifically ambiguous) contexts.
I don't like Sec. 31 as an open force within starfleet which despite being suddenly 'legitimized' still also acts like the illegitimate, we'll do whatever we want version of the previous shows. I'd be fine if it were openly a part of Starfleet and clearly acted on Federation ideals, with the understanding that maybe sometimes things have to be bent for the great good. (Of course, even then it would make more sense to just call it Starfleet Intelligence and save the Section 31 name for specific episodes with specifically morally ambiguous concepts, but, whatever, marketing is fine.) I'd be fine if it were totally backstabby and stupidly secretive and morally questionable and operated in the shadows, with the understanding that it probably still has some nebulous support somewhere in SFHQ. Doing both at once is ridiculous.
Plus it's a somewhat irritating discontinuity in that it doesn't just contradict a single line from some episode 20 years ago, it totally undermines the concept of what Section 31 was about in the first place while making a bunch of different characters look like ignorant morons for having never heard of 31 in the first place. I mean, seriously, the *Tal Shiar* thought Section 31 was a myth. Just 100 years after it openly controlled an entire fleet. That's like the CIA saying 'SS? What is this SS you speak of? That's obviously made up!'.
I'd have issues even getting the shadowy S31 from Ent. to this open status in the first place - though that might be doable - but the idea that they can go from where they are now on DSC to a complete and total mythical status in 100 years is entirely unbelievable. Which, again, I'd accept the retcon and move on if the story was at least decent, but it isn't. I don't even like Tyler, or Leland or Mirror Georgiou. Or Control. So there's really just not much to like there.
I don't like Sec. 31 as an open force within starfleet which despite being suddenly 'legitimized' still also acts like the illegitimate, we'll do whatever we want version of the previous shows. I'd be fine if it were openly a part of Starfleet and clearly acted on Federation ideals, with the understanding that maybe sometimes things have to be bent for the great good. (Of course, even then it would make more sense to just call it Starfleet Intelligence and save the Section 31 name for specific episodes with specifically morally ambiguous concepts, but, whatever, marketing is fine.) I'd be fine if it were totally backstabby and stupidly secretive and morally questionable and operated in the shadows, with the understanding that it probably still has some nebulous support somewhere in SFHQ. Doing both at once is ridiculous.
Plus it's a somewhat irritating discontinuity in that it doesn't just contradict a single line from some episode 20 years ago, it totally undermines the concept of what Section 31 was about in the first place while making a bunch of different characters look like ignorant morons for having never heard of 31 in the first place. I mean, seriously, the *Tal Shiar* thought Section 31 was a myth. Just 100 years after it openly controlled an entire fleet. That's like the CIA saying 'SS? What is this SS you speak of? That's obviously made up!'.
I'd have issues even getting the shadowy S31 from Ent. to this open status in the first place - though that might be doable - but the idea that they can go from where they are now on DSC to a complete and total mythical status in 100 years is entirely unbelievable. Which, again, I'd accept the retcon and move on if the story was at least decent, but it isn't. I don't even like Tyler, or Leland or Mirror Georgiou. Or Control. So there's really just not much to like there.
I think I said it before - I really enjoyed the S31 plot BEFORE the "Control"-reveal.
Leland, the bad-good-badguy was IMO the strongest guest character this season: He was clearly wrong and doing evil things. But out of such conviction, and with good intentions, goddamn, that is how you write a convinccing villain!
Then, much like the Lorca reveal in S1, it all turned into schlock.
One BIG caveat though:
It would have been so, so, so much better if it were just "Starfleet Intelligence". The exact same mistake "Into Darkness" already made. What they were showing was clearly and quite obvious a fully formed spy organization, with own rank structure, hierarchy, starships, resources, gouvernment oversight and so on. And I love spy stuff! That's why I enjoyed that part.
But that's not what Section 31 one is. S31 is a secret cabal, a conspiracy within various Federation spy agencies, Starfleet, Federation gouvernment.... They don't pick a logo. They're not the CIA. They are the Illuminati. Big difference.
Leland, the bad-good-badguy was IMO the strongest guest character this season: He was clearly wrong and doing evil things. But out of such conviction, and with good intentions, goddamn, that is how you write a convinccing villain!
Then, much like the Lorca reveal in S1, it all turned into schlock.
One BIG caveat though:
It would have been so, so, so much better if it were just "Starfleet Intelligence". The exact same mistake "Into Darkness" already made. What they were showing was clearly and quite obvious a fully formed spy organization, with own rank structure, hierarchy, starships, resources, gouvernment oversight and so on. And I love spy stuff! That's why I enjoyed that part.
But that's not what Section 31 one is. S31 is a secret cabal, a conspiracy within various Federation spy agencies, Starfleet, Federation gouvernment.... They don't pick a logo. They're not the CIA. They are the Illuminati. Big difference.
They are covert, not overt. They should keep both characters and audiences guessing about their abilities and intentions.
I don't get preferring that Starfleet Intelligence do what Section 31 does. Doesn't that make Starfleet the same as Section 31? I prefer they be kept separate.
Before someone says, "I prefer they don't exist!" That ship has already sailed... It's in New Trek, Old Trek, and one of the films.
Before someone says, "I prefer they don't exist!" That ship has already sailed... It's in New Trek, Old Trek, and one of the films.
G
Gonzo
Guest
Someone has to do the dirty jobs, Starfleet Intelligence wont do it so it falls to S31 to step up in that regard.
I like to think that they are both, with elements of the Illuminati, as well as legitimate fronts. Bearing in mind, most conspiracy theories and secret style societies have a legitimate front, either though business or governmental means. They have to have those fronts in order to recruit and advance their interests without always needing backdoor dealings.
Section 31 is an organization that is neither confirmed nor denied by Starfleet at the time of DS9. They are not as boogeyman-esque as the Illuminati in our own world stage.
As for logos, who is to say? Secret societies and cabals have had those for years. Again, referencing the Illuminati that organization is known for its symbols and logos and hidden messages and the like. And, for an organization that prides itself on keeping the Federation safe, they are going to ensconce their efforts with a symbol. As the saying goes, a picture is worth a thousand words.
Section 31 in Starfleet is like MI5/MI6 who officially did not exist until the James Bond movies lol
I’m not.
It's not what Section 31 was in 1998. It is what Section 31 has been since 2013.
Yes, someone made a big change but... that's Star Trek.
I didn’t find the Section 31 storyline as objectionable as I feared I might. That said, I didn’t find it much of anything. It was just sort of there, and I remain uninterested in a potential spinoff.
The best part of the S31 story was Leland butting heads with Pike. I liked their relationship and thought it was a missed opportunity that the writers didn’t do more with it.
The best part of the S31 story was Leland butting heads with Pike. I liked their relationship and thought it was a missed opportunity that the writers didn’t do more with it.
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