Are we alone in the Cosmos? The Bible vs Evolution...

[StarryEyed]

Rack of T'Pol,

Your error is second-guessing experts when you clearly lack the qualifications for doing so. This isn't to say that we should accept everything "experts" say as gospel but we need to be careful about how we do that.

If my doctor tells me I have cancer and I am skeptical of that diagnoses, I'm going to consult another doctor - not my own judgment. I'm not a medical professional and even my layman knowledge of the subject is not high so it would be pretty stupid for me to second-guess my doctor. If a few other doctors disagree with the first one, now I have a rational basis to doubt him.

You don't understand how our young species developed intelligence while much older species did not? Ask an evolutionary biologist to explain it to you. If you are not satisfied with their answer, ask another evolutionary biologist. But DON'T ask clergy, auto mechanics, politicians or Trek fans to explain it to you.

 

[TIN_MAN]

IIRC, Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan wrote in Kabbalah and the age of the Universe...

"The Talmud in Megillah 18a quotes the verse in the Song of Devorah. "Cursed is Meroz, cursed are it's inhabitants." The Talmud cites an opinion that holds that Meroz is a star, thus indicating that extraterrestrial life does exist."

Other authorities say that "Meroz" is in fact Mars, so go figure?

 

[Corwwyn]

as perceived from the traveler

Yeah, people always seem to overlook that bit...

 

[The Habs Fan]

2) The bible. If we're to believe in the bible, or a higher being, and 95% of all of the population does believe in a higher being, then why didn't God tell us about little green men in the bible? Rather than only telling us about Adam and Eve?? The bible is supposedly the word of God after all.

Get back to me when there's definitive proof that "little green men" exist.

Of course, those who truly believe in the bible, also believe the earth is only about 6,000 years old...And Man walked with the dinosaurs...Things I have a hard time accepting...But then again, only a short 500 years ago, we all believed earth was the center of the universe. (Damn we've come a long way in a very, very short, as the cosmos' go, time.)

Not everyone who believes in God and the Bible are Creationists. In fact, the Bible doesn't specify whether the Creation Days are literal 24-hour days or figurative days (of who knows how long).

 

[Rack of T'Pol]

Rack of T'Pol,

Your error is second-guessing experts when you clearly lack the qualifications for doing so. This isn't to say that we should accept everything "experts" say as gospel but we need to be careful about how we do that.

If my doctor tells me I have cancer and I am skeptical of that diagnoses, I'm going to consult another doctor - not my own judgment. I'm not a medical professional and even my layman knowledge of the subject is not high so it would be pretty stupid for me to second-guess my doctor. If a few other doctors disagree with the first one, now I have a rational basis to doubt him.

You don't understand how our young species developed intelligence while much older species did not? Ask an evolutionary biologist to explain it to you. If you are not satisfied with their answer, ask another evolutionary biologist. But DON'T ask clergy, auto mechanics, politicians or Trek fans to explain it to you.

Actually, I'll ask anyone I like. As long as they have an open mind, like me, that is...

 

[Rack of T'Pol]

Serous question, and I hope everyone feels free to answer it seriously and openly...

Do you believe aliens, from another world (Not another dimension, or anything like that...Also, not mistaken angles or demons either) have ever visited earth?

Me?

I have never, ever, even come close to having any kind of experience at all. Not with aliens, or UFOs, or ghosts, or Bigfoot, or anything...Not from God, Jesus, or angles or demons, or anything at all, if that interests anyone. So, I'm governed by my own lack of experiences, and that tells me there is nothing past this life, or this world...Period.

Still...

I really hope UFO sightings are true, and I get to witness true contact one day...I think I wish for it more than anything I can think of...

And to back that all up...

I would gladly, right now, step onto an alien vessel and allow them to take me back to their world...Without even a second of hesitation. Regardless if I could ever get back to earth or not.

 

[Rack of T'Pol]

2) The bible. If we're to believe in the bible, or a higher being, and 95% of all of the population does believe in a higher being, then why didn't God tell us about little green men in the bible? Rather than only telling us about Adam and Eve?? The bible is supposedly the word of God after all.

Get back to me when there's definitive proof that "little green men" exist.

Of course, those who truly believe in the bible, also believe the earth is only about 6,000 years old...And Man walked with the dinosaurs...Things I have a hard time accepting...But then again, only a short 500 years ago, we all believed earth was the center of the universe. (Damn we've come a long way in a very, very short, as the cosmos' go, time.)

Not everyone who believes in God and the Bible are Creationists. In fact, the Bible doesn't specify whether the Creation Days are literal 24-hour days or figurative days (of who knows how long).

Every single "Born Again Christian"...Those who have literally "Accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior" (Maybe that's the way to put it, more specifically.), that I've ever spoken too, believes the bible is literal truth, the world is only 6000 years old, God created the heavens and the earth in 6 24 hour days, and then rested on Sunday, and man walked with the dinosaurs.

And I've asked a lot. I love having these discussions with Christians, atheists, or not...I don't offend easily, and never, ever set-out to intentionally offend anyone else. Now, asking lots of questions, or probing someone based on their own beliefs, that's different...And I do that any chance I get.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Whenever I read the Bible I get the sense from some verses that God was not alone and there were in-fact other Gods. For example when God says "let us make man in our own image".

It's quite possible that there are a vast number of these "Gods" and the Universe is so large because each God created their own planets and own people on them. There could be Millions of Gods and Millions of worlds with Millions of civilisations.

 

[StarryEyed]

Rack of T'Pol,

Your error is second-guessing experts when you clearly lack the qualifications for doing so. This isn't to say that we should accept everything "experts" say as gospel but we need to be careful about how we do that.

If my doctor tells me I have cancer and I am skeptical of that diagnoses, I'm going to consult another doctor - not my own judgment. I'm not a medical professional and even my layman knowledge of the subject is not high so it would be pretty stupid for me to second-guess my doctor. If a few other doctors disagree with the first one, now I have a rational basis to doubt him.

You don't understand how our young species developed intelligence while much older species did not? Ask an evolutionary biologist to explain it to you. If you are not satisfied with their answer, ask another evolutionary biologist. But DON'T ask clergy, auto mechanics, politicians or Trek fans to explain it to you.

Actually, I'll ask anyone I like. As long as they have an open mind, like me, that is...

Here's the thing:

Having an open mind is a good thing - except when facts are involved.

Do you have an "open mind" regarding a spherical Earth vs. a flat Earth? I doubt it. There is no room for open-mindedness there because we know beyond any shadow of a doubt that Earth is spherical.

It's the same thing with evolution. We can't say with any certainty how life started in the first place but we KNOW that the life forms on this planet today evolved from simpler creatures and that the process began at least 3 billion years ago. Questioning that isn't open-mindedness - it is ignorance.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Or as I like to put it: it's good to have an open mind, but not so open that your brain fall off on the floor.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Every single "Born Again Christian"...Those who have literally "Accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior" (Maybe that's the way to put it, more specifically.), that I've ever spoken too, believes the bible is literal truth, the world is only 6000 years old, God created the heavens and the earth in 6 24 hour days, and then rested on Sunday, and man walked with the dinosaurs.

I would say then that your pool of available "Born Again Christians" is very small, or you live in an odd part of the country, or you have a specific, rigid definition of what a "Born Again Christian" is that one who does NOT believe in a Young Earth would not count in your eyes as a "Born Again Christian".

 

[Rack of T'Pol]

Rack of T'Pol,

Your error is second-guessing experts when you clearly lack the qualifications for doing so. This isn't to say that we should accept everything "experts" say as gospel but we need to be careful about how we do that.

If my doctor tells me I have cancer and I am skeptical of that diagnoses, I'm going to consult another doctor - not my own judgment. I'm not a medical professional and even my layman knowledge of the subject is not high so it would be pretty stupid for me to second-guess my doctor. If a few other doctors disagree with the first one, now I have a rational basis to doubt him.

You don't understand how our young species developed intelligence while much older species did not? Ask an evolutionary biologist to explain it to you. If you are not satisfied with their answer, ask another evolutionary biologist. But DON'T ask clergy, auto mechanics, politicians or Trek fans to explain it to you.

Actually, I'll ask anyone I like. As long as they have an open mind, like me, that is...

Here's the thing:

Having an open mind is a good thing - except when facts are involved.

Do you have an "open mind" regarding a spherical Earth vs. a flat Earth? I doubt it. There is no room for open-mindedness there because we know beyond any shadow of a doubt that Earth is spherical.

It's the same thing with evolution. We can't say with any certainty how life started in the first place but we KNOW that the life forms on this planet today evolved from simpler creatures and that the process began at least 3 billion years ago. Questioning that isn't open-mindedness - it is ignorance.

I enjoy checking in on the kooky flat-earthers once in a while.

As for evolution...No, we do not "KNOW" it is a fact.

 

[Rack of T'Pol]

Every single "Born Again Christian"...Those who have literally "Accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior" (Maybe that's the way to put it, more specifically.), that I've ever spoken too, believes the bible is literal truth, the world is only 6000 years old, God created the heavens and the earth in 6 24 hour days, and then rested on Sunday, and man walked with the dinosaurs.

I would say then that your pool of available "Born Again Christians" is very small, or you live in an odd part of the country, or you have a specific, rigid definition of what a "Born Again Christian" is that one who does NOT believe in a Young Earth would not count in your eyes as a "Born Again Christian".

No. No. And...No.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Actually, I'll ask anyone I like. As long as they have an open mind, like me, that is...

Here's the thing:

Having an open mind is a good thing - except when facts are involved.

Do you have an "open mind" regarding a spherical Earth vs. a flat Earth? I doubt it. There is no room for open-mindedness there because we know beyond any shadow of a doubt that Earth is spherical.

It's the same thing with evolution. We can't say with any certainty how life started in the first place but we KNOW that the life forms on this planet today evolved from simpler creatures and that the process began at least 3 billion years ago. Questioning that isn't open-mindedness - it is ignorance.

I enjoy checking in on the kooky flat-earthers once in a while.

As for evolution...No, we do not "KNOW" it is a fact.

We kind of DO, actually. Specifically, we know THAT things evolve, that things have evolved, and that things will evolve. What we do not know for sure is HOW things evolved, how things continue to evolve, and how things will evolve in the future.

It's sort of like how Isaac Newton already knew that gravity existed, but to this day we're still not totally sure what gravity is.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Every single "Born Again Christian"...Those who have literally "Accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior" (Maybe that's the way to put it, more specifically.), that I've ever spoken too, believes the bible is literal truth, the world is only 6000 years old, God created the heavens and the earth in 6 24 hour days, and then rested on Sunday, and man walked with the dinosaurs.

I would say then that your pool of available "Born Again Christians" is very small, or you live in an odd part of the country, or you have a specific, rigid definition of what a "Born Again Christian" is that one who does NOT believe in a Young Earth would not count in your eyes as a "Born Again Christian".

Keep in mind, though, that in most parts of the country there's a really big difference between "Christian" and "Born again Christian." The "Born Again" movement is a sales pitch for the Evangelical movement, of which Young Earth Creationism is a significant (and highly influential) subset. It's not the kind of crap you usually hear from, say, Methodists or Catholics, but mostly Evangelicals and southern baptists hold this as an article of faith at least as important, if not more so, that the divinity of Christ.

 

[Rack of T'Pol]

Every single "Born Again Christian"...Those who have literally "Accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior" (Maybe that's the way to put it, more specifically.), that I've ever spoken too, believes the bible is literal truth, the world is only 6000 years old, God created the heavens and the earth in 6 24 hour days, and then rested on Sunday, and man walked with the dinosaurs.

I would say then that your pool of available "Born Again Christians" is very small, or you live in an odd part of the country, or you have a specific, rigid definition of what a "Born Again Christian" is that one who does NOT believe in a Young Earth would not count in your eyes as a "Born Again Christian".

Keep in mind, though, that in most parts of the country there's a really big difference between "Christian" and "Born again Christian." The "Born Again" movement is a sales pitch for the Evangelical movement, of which Young Earth Creationism is a significant (and highly influential) subset. It's not the kind of crap you usually hear from, say, Methodists or Catholics, but mostly Evangelicals and southern baptists hold this as an article of faith at least as important, if not more so, that the divinity of Christ.

Yes...I was speaking of "Born Again Christians"...I should have made it more clear.

Me? I don't know. I just don't know. It seems to me, as pointed-out in my original post, that 160,000 years, or even doubling, or quadrupling that number, is not enough years to go from feces flinging apes to spam flinging internet posters.

I'm not saying the bible contains the truth, as I believe the bible was written by well intentioned people (Kind of showing us the way to live in a peaceful manor), rather than people channeling the word of God.

I remember, back around the early to mid 70s, while in catholic school, which I only attended, and have not went to mass since, the 6th grade...We had a book about dinosaurs...And while I don't remember the details, I also don't recall my teachers telling us that man walked with the dinosaurs...Quite the opposite...I don't recall them having any problems with what the book stated concerning dinosaurs living millions, not thousands of years ago...With "Man" coming much later.

 

[iguana_tonante]

As for evolution...No, we do not "KNOW" it is a fact.

Well, we kinda do. It's a fact as much as the the Theory of General Relativity, and the Theory of Germs and the Theory of Blood Circulation. But you don't hear much debate on them.

Me? I don't know. I just don't know. It seems to me, as pointed-out in my original post, that 160,000 years, or even doubling, or quadrupling that number, is not enough years to go from feces flinging apes to spam flinging internet posters.

On the other hand, we went from writing on sheep skin to the Internet in less than 1,000 years, so it doesn't seem like a big deal. By the way, 160,000 years is the age of the mitocondrial Eve, not of the "first" homo sapiens. That would be about 200,000 years or more.

I'm not saying the bible contains the truth, as I believe the bible was written by well intentioned people (Kind of showing us the way to live in a peaceful manor), rather than people channeling the word of God.

Given the tales of war, murder, rape and genocide in the Bible, I consider that sentence highly amusing.

I remember, back around the early to mid 70s, while in catholic school, which I only attended, and have not went to mass since, the 6th grade...We had a book about dinosaurs...And while I don't remember the details, I also don't recall my teachers telling us that man walked with the dinosaurs...Quite the opposite...I don't recall them having any problems with what the book stated concerning dinosaurs living millions, not thousands of years ago...With "Man" coming much later.

Catholics have never been big on the literal interpretation of the Bible in the last 500 years.

 

[scotpens]

I believe God is a scientist and we're lab rats. When he decides the experiment isn't working out, he'll do what he has done many times before -- wash out the petri dish and start over.

And the reason we haven't met any other lab rats is because they're trapped in their own petri dishes.

Those must be some VERY tiny rats!

(See what happens when you mix your metaphors!)

 

[scotpens]

Whenever I read the Bible I get the sense from some verses that God was not alone and there were in-fact other Gods. For example when God says "let us make man in our own image".

The King James Bible is a 400-year-old English translation of texts originally written in Hebrew and Greek. In Hebrew, God is sometimes called by the plural "Elohim." The translators may simply have been trying to convey a sense of the original text. Or it's possible a whole bunch of gods could have been present at the Creation:

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/09/26/050926sh_shouts

 

[Amaris]

Every single "Born Again Christian"...Those who have literally "Accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior" (Maybe that's the way to put it, more specifically.), that I've ever spoken too, believes the bible is literal truth, the world is only 6000 years old, God created the heavens and the earth in 6 24 hour days, and then rested on Sunday, and man walked with the dinosaurs.

I would say then that your pool of available "Born Again Christians" is very small, or you live in an odd part of the country, or you have a specific, rigid definition of what a "Born Again Christian" is that one who does NOT believe in a Young Earth would not count in your eyes as a "Born Again Christian".

Keep in mind, though, that in most parts of the country there's a really big difference between "Christian" and "Born again Christian." The "Born Again" movement is a sales pitch for the Evangelical movement, of which Young Earth Creationism is a significant (and highly influential) subset. It's not the kind of crap you usually hear from, say, Methodists or Catholics, but mostly Evangelicals and southern baptists hold this as an article of faith at least as important, if not more so, that the divinity of Christ.

Bingo.