Are We All Too Harsh On The Kazon?

[Agony_Boothb]

The Voth weren't villains. They wanted to be left alone, with their mythology intact. And they were also vastly more powerful than Voyager. There could ne no "civil war" because the information was retracted, and the population was fed bullshit, just like us.

They were pretty adversarial. Minister Odala would have had Voyager destroyed and the crew imprisoned had Gegen not backed down. Not to mention their generally racist attitude to non-saurians. It's also implied in the episode that there are other people like Gegen who believe the distant origin theory. Why not have the voth as villains but also Voyager could get help from a group of rebels or some other type of breakaway group. Of course there could be a civil war, a government as draconian as the Voth would not be without it's detractors.

Distant origin was worthy of a follow up because we learn there was this entire civilisation of Humanoid dinosaurs living on earth 65 million years ago. It's a cool idea and I would like to have seen more of it. Not sure why that is such a problem for you.

 

[darrenjl]

Going full circle with the Ocampa would have been a nice finish. I always wondered if the final episode would involve them and Suspiria, with the Ocampa having to make a sacrifice to save the Voyager crew, which would have been the reverse twist to Janeway's decision. Something along the lines of the Ocampa losing their home but being able to send Voyager home.

There was a similar fan story I read online in the late nineties before Voyager finished that Suspiria had returned to Ocampa, and pulled Voyager back to the start of their journey. Suspiria wanted to destroy Voyager, but the Ocampa had grown strong and evolved to the surface, and Kes was now their leader. The final twist involved the Ocampa using their powers to destroy Suspiria even if it meant Voyager unable to return home again and having to restart their journey. In the end the combined power of the Ocampa send Voyager back to Earth as they evolve into higher beings.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Though it's been some years since I last watched Voyager, they often had continuity issues like this. I understand why the Borg kept recurring even after Voyager left their territory, but I seem to recall them travelling some 20,000 lightyears and somehow running into the Malon again. Not to mention the Hirogen somehow coming back in later seasons long after Voyager should have left their space behind.

At least with the Hirogen, with their first appearance in charge of the communications network and also the nature of their civilization, you could semi-plausibly claim they actually cover that large a territory.

I agree that it would have been nice for Voyager to come full circle, but it wouldn't have felt right if they were pulled all the way back to Ocampa. Maybe a third caretaker gets involved with the Borg conflict.

 

[jmidnight_99]

Also they were powerful enough to be a real threat to the Voyager crew. When I learned more about the creation of the Kazon, I wasn't a fan of them being drawn from LA street gangs of the '90s, or that they were later considered unworthy even of Borg assimilation. Perhaps that was a sop or admission of how they fizzled as villains but I didn't care for that based on the real-world inspiration, as if saying the Kazon, who were inspired by gangs populated primarily by young black Americans were not worthy or had nothing of value or could add to the Borg Collective.

I didn't see the gang analog, but the Kazon were little more than weak and inferior thugs.

They were pretty adversarial. Minister Odala would have had Voyager destroyed and the crew imprisoned had Gegen not backed down. Not to mention their generally racist attitude to non-saurians. It's also implied in the episode that there are other people like Gegen who believe the distant origin theory. Why not have the voth as villains but also Voyager could get help from a group of rebels or some other type of breakaway group. Of course there could be a civil war, a government as draconian as the Voth would not be without it's detractors. Distant origin was worthy of a follow up because we learn there was this entire civilisation of Humanoid dinosaurs living on earth 65 million years ago. It's a cool idea and I would like to have seen more of it. Not sure why that is such a problem for you.

There are a lot of stories worthy of follow ups. How about the species that were doing the medical experiments?

The Voth were adversarial, which is different than being an enemy. They had no interest in or business with Voyager. What was Voyager going to do? Follow them around and threaten to tell the population that they originated on the other side of the galaxy?

Going full circle with the Ocampa would have been a nice finish. I always wondered if the final episode would involve them and Suspiria, with the Ocampa having to make a sacrifice to save the Voyager crew, which would have been the reverse twist to Janeway's decision. Something along the lines of the Ocampa losing their home but being able to send Voyager home.There was a similar fan story I read online in the late nineties before Voyager finished that Suspiria had returned to Ocampa, and pulled Voyager back to the start of their journey. Suspiria wanted to destroy Voyager, but the Ocampa had grown strong and evolved to the surface, and Kes was now their leader. The final twist involved the Ocampa using their powers to destroy Suspiria even if it meant Voyager unable to return home again and having to restart their journey. In the end the combined power of the Ocampa send Voyager back to Earth as they evolve into higher beings.

Eh. Susperia thought Voyager had killed the Caretaker, certainly the Ocampa would have corrected her (I think Susperia was corrected by the end of the episode anyway). There would be no motivation for any of this to happen. Additionally, If getting home at the expense of the Ocampan homeworld was what Janeway wanted, she wouldn't have destroyed the array in the first place. The Ocampa might have been able to send Janeway home after regaining their abilities, but the rest of this plot really doesn't make any more sense than "Fury" does to me. "Fury" was a bunch of stuff happening for the sake of an episode, it ignored who Kes was, and what she became.

At least with the Hirogen, with their first appearance in charge of the communications network and also the nature of their civilization, you could semi-plausibly claim they actually cover that large a territory. I agree that it would have been nice for Voyager to come full circle, but it wouldn't have felt right if they were pulled all the way back to Ocampa. Maybe a third caretaker gets involved with the Borg conflict.

I agree... except for the third Caretaker.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

The Voth were adversarial, which is different than being an enemy. They had no interest in or business with Voyager. What was Voyager going to do? Follow them around and threaten to tell the population that they originated on the other side of the galaxy?

Being adversarial is usually the beginning of being an enemy. Elements of Voth society were threatened by Voyager, some weren't. There are plenty of stories to be mined from that like how a culture begins to question itself and enact societal change, commentary on religious dogma, questioning of accepted history. If the writers of Voyager could get story arcs out of a species whose main thing is being a predator rip-off, they sure as hell could have done a lot with the Voth.

For what it's worth the Voth do show up in Voyager re-launch and they have beef with Voyager and by extension the Federation. So yeah, they can definitely be used as villains.

Honestly i don't get what your problem is or why your being intentionally antagonistic. Have a relax man, it's just ideas and spitballing.

 

[Lynx]

Great? Kes, Tasha Yar, now the Kazon? They all have the same thing in common.... they are uninteresting, and have nowhere to go. They don't support interesting stories. The Kazon attack the ship, and try to take it over. The Kazon attack the ship, and try to take it over. The Kazon attack the ship, and try to take it over. Who would want to watch this for 7 years?

I guess it's a matter of taste.

I don't find the Kazon uninteresting and the concept for that species was great.

And it wasn't all about they wanting to take over the ship, it was the Kazon-Nistrim with Seska and Culluh who wanted to do thyat. Not the Ogla, Relora and any other Kazon sect.

Not to mention that the episodes with Culluh and Seska as villains were highly enjoyable.

My only objection is that maybe it was a bit over the top to have the same Nistrim gang chasing them for two years through space which was inhabited by other Kazon sects. Maybe they should have stayed for a while at "The 37's planet", let's say half the second season and had all the Kazon episodes there and then. The non-Kazon episodes should have been in the second half of season 2.

Since Voyager was traveling trough the Delta Quadrant to get home, 7 seasons with the kazon would have been impossible no matter what. So I didn't want to watch this for 7 years.

Actually, it was more than enough to see Seven in her catsuit being showed up from all possible angles in 4 years. Not to mention the Borg who were finished already in TNG.

 

[DonIago]

I think if Voyager had stayed at the same planet for half a season that I might very well have stopped watching the show, unless they were able to come up with a really good explanation for it.

 

[jmidnight_99]

Being adversarial is usually the beginning of being an enemy. Elements of Voth society were threatened by Voyager, some weren't. There are plenty of stories to be mined from that like how a culture begins to question itself and enact societal change, commentary on religious dogma, questioning of accepted history. If the writers of Voyager could get story arcs out of a species whose main thing is being a predator rip-off, they sure as hell could have done a lot with the Voth. For what it's worth the Voth do show up in Voyager re-launch and they have beef with Voyager and by extension the Federation. So yeah, they can definitely be used as villains. Honestly i don't get what your problem is or why your being intentionally antagonistic. Have a relax man, it's just ideas and spitballing.

i'm not antagonistic, I just come off that way.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. Voyager didn't need to anything with the Voth except mind their own business. I'm sure the prime directive has something to say about this exact situation. Nothing you wrote matters, because it is not Voyagers place to interfere, judge, or antagonize a species that could destroy them effortlessly. Novels are not canon. And I wouldn't care to watch Voyager "beat" them time and time again, because they couldn't. There would have been no good reason to pursue the storyline.

I guess it's a matter of taste. I don't find the Kazon uninteresting and the concept for that species was great. And it wasn't all about they wanting to take over the ship, it was the Kazon-Nistrim with Seska and Culluh who wanted to do thyat. Not the Ogla, Relora and any other Kazon sect. Not to mention that the episodes with Culluh and Seska as villains were highly enjoyable. My only objection is that maybe it was a bit over the top to have the same Nistrim gang chasing them for two years through space which was inhabited by other Kazon sects. Maybe they should have stayed for a while at "The 37's planet", let's say half the second season and had all the Kazon episodes there and then. The non-Kazon episodes should have been in the second half of season 2. Since Voyager was traveling trough the Delta Quadrant to get home, 7 seasons with the kazon would have been impossible no matter what. So I didn't want to watch this for 7 years. Actually, it was more than enough to see Seven in her catsuit being showed up from all possible angles in 4 years. Not to mention the Borg who were finished already in TNG.

I don't know many people who would use rhe word "great" and "Kazon" in the same sentence. They were horrible, vapid characters in every way. Or wished Tasha Yar stayed on TNG. Or wished they put Kes in that catsuit. Well if they did that they could have saved money by hiring an 11 year old boy as a body double. You seem to favor that which offers the least challenge and stimulation.

It all a matter of taste... but so is mentioning bodily functions during a meal.

 

[Tribble Threat]

It sounds like you're not a fan of antagonizing or judging people. Maybe you should be careful not to judge or antagonize Lynx over a TV show.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

i'm not antagonistic, I just come off that way.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. Voyager didn't need to anything with the Voth except mind their own business. I'm sure the prime directive has something to say about this exact situation. Nothing you wrote matters, because it is not Voyagers place to interfere, judge, or antagonize a species that could destroy them effortlessly. Novels are not canon. And I wouldn't care to watch Voyager "beat" them time and time again, because they couldn't. There would have been no good reason to pursue the storyline.

I have absolutely no idea why you are so bent out of shape over this.

Anyway, I'll agree to disagree and you could literally apply your statement to how Voyager handled the Borg. Never said Novels were canon and I know they aren't, just saying the Voth were used as villains in them and it was good. So yeah they can be used as villains and there could have been good reasons to pursue the storyline if one applies their imagination. Like I said, if we can see the Hirogen repeatedly the same could have been done to the Voth.

You really need to accept that other people are going to have different opinions than you and just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.

 

[Lynx]

It sounds like you're not a fan of antagonizing or judging people. Maybe you should be careful not to judge or antagonize Lynx over a TV show.

I'm used to it. I've been debating with those Kes haters for a very long time. They just are that way.

 

[Lynx]

i'm not antagonistic, I just come off that way.
I don't know many people who would use rhe word "great" and "Kazon" in the same sentence. They were horrible, vapid characters in every way. Or wished Tasha Yar stayed on TNG. Or wished they put Kes in that catsuit. Well if they did that they could have saved money by hiring an 11 year old boy as a body double. You seem to favor that which offers the least challenge and stimulation.

It all a matter of taste... but so is mentioning bodily functions during a meal.

Honestly, you come off like a jerk. Well, I can be a jerk too. My actions are always reflections of what I receive from those I debate with. However, I'll try to be polite this time.

I'm not interested in seeing Kes in a catsuit. She has a natural beauty which don't need a catsuit to attract fans.

The comment about "11 year old boy" was actually nasty and insulting against the character, the actress and those who like the character. I would really like to know what you are trying to come up with here. Do you consider those who happen to like the character as some sort of perverts? In that case I'm very offended.

 

[DonIago]

To be fair, I think the original look of Kes was pretty androgynous, though I wouldn't go so far as to say "11 year old boy" myself. I would consider that more of a comment on how TPTB chose to have her look rather than a comment on the actress though, as when her hair was changed it helped a fair deal. Unless the actress herself wanted to look the way she did, and if so...I mean...if she wanted to look androgynous and succeeded in doing so, then isn't it actually a compliment to recognize that she looked the way she wanted to? I'm not sure how that reflects on anyone who liked the character...unless their liking the character revolved largely around her looks...I think that's reading more into the comment than was intended... Anyway...

I never found her especially beautiful either, but then, she's not my type, and really, there's nobody in Star Trek who I...typically...want to see in a catsuit.

How about we talk more about the Kazon and how they could have been better handled?

 

[Tribble Threat]

I say the Kazon could have been better handled if they looked a bit less like Klingons, didn't shout as much, and the rivalries between their factions/tribes/gangs/whatever they were were better fleshed out. I think the Kazon were quite good minor villains, and a changes in writing and style could have made them great major villains.

 

[jmidnight_99]

Honestly, you come off like a jerk. Well, I can be a jerk too. My actions are always reflections of what I receive from those I debate with. However, I'll try to be polite this time.

I'm not interested in seeing Kes in a catsuit. She has a natural beauty which don't need a catsuit to attract fans.

The comment about "11 year old boy" was actually nasty and insulting against the character, the actress and those who like the character. I would really like to know what you are trying to come up with here. Do you consider those who happen to like the character as some sort of perverts? In that case I'm very offended.

"Actually, it was more than enough to see Seven in her catsuit being showed up from all possible angles in 4 years. Not to mention the Borg who were finished already in TNG"

"Well if they did that they could have saved money by hiring an 11 year old boy as a body double."

What's the issue? You did the same thing.

 

[Akiraprise]

Honestly, you come off like a jerk. Well, I can be a jerk too. My actions are always reflections of what I receive from those I debate with. However, I'll try to be polite this time.

I'm not interested in seeing Kes in a catsuit. She has a natural beauty which don't need a catsuit to attract fans.

The comment about "11 year old boy" was actually nasty and insulting against the character, the actress and those who like the character. I would really like to know what you are trying to come up with here. Do you consider those who happen to like the character as some sort of perverts? In that case I'm very offended.

"Actually, it was more than enough to see Seven in her catsuit being showed up from all possible angles in 4 years. Not to mention the Borg who were finished already in TNG"

"Well if they did that they could have saved money by hiring an 11 year old boy as a body double."

What's the issue? You did the same thing.

Both of you can knock off the bickering.

This isn't even a thread about Kes. In fact I am seeing way too much Kes drama across multiple threads lately. That needs to stop.

 

[garakvsneelix]

My only real problem with the Kazon was the long time the Voyager needed to leave their arrea. Since it was established that their ships aren't as fast as the Voyager, it became more and more curious, that the crew always met the same Kazon characters on different planets.

 

[darrenjl]

As said the first two years of Voyager's journey probably wasn't in a straight line through that region of space. A lot of weaving, back tracking, and jumping between star systems in the name of exploration and replenishment of resources.

 

[DonIago]

It may not have been a straight line, but I'd certainly like evidence that they were backtracking or jumping between systems.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Voyager's first villains were ridiculous and not the kind of antagonist the series required, more of a nuisance than a threat. The Kazons should've been the "Yang" to the Ocampas' "Ying"; they should've had a counter superpower which made them a threat to them. The race came off as a poorly designed enemy who had ginormous SHIPS which couldn't hang with Voyager and they were too needy for technology. I would've like see whether the Borg tore their foundation and what measures they did to evade or keeping the Borg at bay... even it was many light years away. I thought it would've be fun if the Kazon was well aware of the Ocampas' superpowers; abducted them, and could channel their abilities to stave off the Borg. Abductions are wrong I know, but it could've been a Kazon thang.